Happy Math v Terrorism

[cystic crypt]

@F_alk:

[
Well, even then it is an “us vs. them”, the terrorists see themselves as freedom-fighters (as do their allies) while the other side calls them terrorists. Alone the name giving tells you which side you are on. Whatever scenario, you find at least two struggling parties, one of them -usually the “weaker” one- using methods of guerilla warfare, thus terrorism in modern words.

UG!!!
The guy who goes out into a mall in order to intentionally kill as many women and children as possible is not a guerilla warrior, i do not care whose perspective you are using. This “person” is an evil butcher. Terrorist is a most appropriate label in this instance.
Bravo to the warrior who is facing a known enemy warrior, who uses stealth, cunning and strategy to best him on whatever turf by use of guerrila warfare.

[Guest]

That actually is a quite new phenomenon in conflicts of states vs. people.
Up to some time, terrorists/guerilla were happy in attacking enemy warriors, with the enemy attacking the supposed terrorists supporters. See Vietnam, Yugoslavia, France, Russia in WW2.
Now, in Israel/Palestine, the situation is different: here the guerilla/terrorists can actually reach the enemies civilians in their attacks, something that was impossible formerly.
I believe that is one reason why the above has changed.

I did not take into account another kinds of terrorism/guerilla: civil uprising against the own government. Here the situation is different, but surely we can agree that it is not the situation we find in Israel/Palestine.
Much more it is the case of what we knew to be terrorism in the 70s to mid 80s: some people (most often very few) take violent acts to “fight against the establishment”, most often in hope for a “better” society.

Those people who “just” run amok and kill as many people as possible, i would not like to define as terrorists, but plain mad criminals.

[cystic crypt]

@F_alk:

That actually is a quite new phenomenon in conflicts of states vs. people.
Up to some time, terrorists/guerilla were happy in attacking enemy warriors, with the enemy attacking the supposed terrorists supporters. See Vietnam, Yugoslavia, France, Russia in WW2.
Now, in Israel/Palestine, the situation is different: here the guerilla/terrorists can actually reach the enemies civilians in their attacks, something that was impossible formerly.
I believe that is one reason why the above has changed.

I did not take into account another kinds of terrorism/guerilla: civil uprising against the own government. Here the situation is different, but surely we can agree that it is not the situation we find in Israel/Palestine.
Much more it is the case of what we knew to be terrorism in the 70s to mid 80s: some people (most often very few) take violent acts to “fight against the establishment”, most often in hope for a “better” society.

Those people who “just” run amok and kill as many people as possible, i would not like to define as terrorists, but plain mad criminals.

i see we are more or less on the same page. So with respect to your last paragraph - would you include abortion doctors in that category? :D

[Guest]

@cystic:

@F_alk:

Those people who “just” run amok and kill as many people as possible, i would not like to define as terrorists, but plain mad criminals.

i see we are more or less on the same page. So with respect to your last paragraph - would you include abortion doctors in that category? :D

;) …. well, if it is an abortion doctor who runs around and does abortions without consent of the possible mother, then yes.

[El Jefe]

ZZZ, your 11m due to starvation annually doen’t work to well for me. I am familiar enough with famine/starvation in Africa, where much(NOT MOST)of the starvation/famine occurs. Families have many children because so many die due to diseases. This adds too much pressure to the environment, with national war/civil war/religious war, that cannot easily support a small family. Thus you have just part of the problem.
@F_alk:

And we sit outside, watch, and support some of those in the struggle. And this support of course makes us the enemies of the other side.

And WHAT do you suggest…we let them kill one another?

Yes, I know Israel has done some things wrong. It was on yesterday’s news.

Yet I do not see the UN addressing Syria’s occupation of southern Lebanon permitting rocket and mortarattacks on northern Israel. Nor do I see the UN confronting Jordan on it’s occcupation of Palestinian territories.

I have Arab and Muslim(yes, I separate them because not all have kept the faith they/their parents believed) friends. Most tell me they left their countries because of the religious and/or government persecution. They are Egyptian, Saudi, Jordanian, Syrian, Iraqi and Iranian(LOTS of Iranians.)

I have spoken with them at length about the problems in the US and their own countries.

I speak from my limited world as do we all.

Alekum salaam!

[cystic crypt]

@F_alk:

@cystic:

@F_alk:

Those people who “just” run amok and kill as many people as possible, i would not like to define as terrorists, but plain mad criminals.

i see we are more or less on the same page. So with respect to your last paragraph - would you include abortion doctors in that category? :D

;) …. well, if it is an abortion doctor who runs around and does abortions without consent of the possible mother, then yes.

no no,
just the children’s consent.

[Guest]

@El:

And WHAT do you suggest…we let them kill one another?

Yes, I know Israel has done some things wrong. It was on yesterday’s news.

Yet I do not see the UN addressing Syria’s occupation of southern Lebanon permitting rocket and mortarattacks on northern Israel. Nor do I see the UN confronting Jordan on it’s occcupation of Palestinian territories.
…
I speak from my limited world as do we all.

One way would be:
… to ignore international law once more, and for good this time :). Occupy Palestine and Israel, take fundamentalists of both sides prisoner (that also means part of the Israeli gov’t and parlament). Take their weapons and shoot anyone who doesn’t give it up.
Another would be to hope that understanding and the way of violentless answers will rule one of the sides, so that the spiral of more and more violence can be broken. That would be a first step at least.

For the UN not adressing anything there. Why should they try with the US’ position in the security council well known and extremely biased/obstructive.
And i agree, we are not there, we cannot tell. And somehow i fear that there will be no solution in that area, unless the world as a whole just does a total (and i mean total) economic blockade of this area, telling them that we only lift that once they start to actually talk to each other. 2 enemies alway can ally when they find a new common enemy.

[cystic crypt]

@F_alk:

@El:

And WHAT do you suggest…we let them kill one another?

Yes, I know Israel has done some things wrong. It was on yesterday’s news.

Yet I do not see the UN addressing Syria’s occupation of southern Lebanon permitting rocket and mortarattacks on northern Israel. Nor do I see the UN confronting Jordan on it’s occcupation of Palestinian territories.
…
I speak from my limited world as do we all.

One way would be:
… to ignore international law once more, and for good this time :). Occupy Palestine and Israel, take fundamentalists of both sides prisoner (that also means part of the Israeli gov’t and parlament). Take their weapons and shoot anyone who doesn’t give it up.
Another would be to hope that understanding and the way of violentless answers will rule one of the sides, so that the spiral of more and more violence can be broken. That would be a first step at least.

For the UN not adressing anything there. Why should they try with the US’ position in the security council well known and extremely biased/obstructive.
And i agree, we are not there, we cannot tell. And somehow i fear that there will be no solution in that area, unless the world as a whole just does a total (and i mean total) economic blockade of this area, telling them that we only lift that once they start to actually talk to each other. 2 enemies alway can ally when they find a new common enemy.

Of course!!! Let’s attack Israel and Palestine!!!

[Guest]

well, it would have a bigger chance to unify them than most of the other proposals i fear. But with my statement of the 2 enemies … well, it was more of a metaphor than something to be done 1:1.

[El Jefe]

@F_alk:

One way would be to ignore international law once more, and for good this time :). Occupy Palestine and Israel, take fundamentalists of both sides prisoner (that also means part of the Israeli gov’t and parlament). Take their weapons and shoot anyone who doesn’t give it up.

This from a proponent of logic!?!?
@F_alk:

Another would be to hope that understanding and the way of violentless answers will rule one of the sides, so that the spiral of more and more violence can be broken. That would be a first step at least.

…and death to the “understanding and the way of violentless answers” side! Of course, the UN (especially most Middle East countries) expect this of Israel, not the Palestinians. Interestingly, enough it is the US (even NOW the GW Bush) administration which often brings the Israelis to the bargaining table by threats of or cutting off financial aid.
@F_alk:

For the UN not addressing anything there. Why should they try with the US’ position in the security council well known and extremely biased/obstructive.

Hmm! One little vote(Israel) and one BIG veto… That’s all that stands between Israel and extinction. “Give it back.” says the UN. “Give it back.” says the Palestinians. “Give it back.” says the terrorists. !BOOM! Dead Israelis. “Bad, bad Israelis!” Israel strikes back. Palestine puts young boys out to die… they die. “Bad, bad Israelis!” “Give it back.” says the UN…(the cycle continues.)
@F_alk:

…unless the world as a whole just does a total (and i mean total) economic blockade of this area…

HAAhahahahaahaHAAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAA!

WHO’S CALLING WHO A TERRORIST?
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - They call themselves Unknown To No One, but the five Iraqis bidding to become the world’s next chart-topping boy band are not exactly famous. Yet.

“We lived under dictatorship for 35 years. I’m not prepared to go through that again, and I don’t think anybody is,” said lead singer Nadeem Hamed, a twenty-year-old biology student. “If people attack us for being in a band, that’s terrorism.”

Source :
http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=musicNews&storyID=2915961

NOT MY WORDS, BUT THEIRS!

[cystic crypt]

@El:

@F_alk:

One way would be to ignore international law once more, and for good this time :). Occupy Palestine and Israel, take fundamentalists of both sides prisoner (that also means part of the Israeli gov’t and parlament). Take their weapons and shoot anyone who doesn’t give it up.

This from a proponent of logic!?!?
@F_alk:

Another would be to hope that understanding and the way of violentless answers will rule one of the sides, so that the spiral of more and more violence can be broken. That would be a first step at least.

…and death to the “understanding and the way of violentless answers” side! Of course, the UN (especially most Middle East countries) expect this of Israel, not the Palestinians. Interestingly, enough it is the US (even NOW the GW Bush) administration which often brings the Israelis to the bargaining table by threats of or cutting off financial aid.

no chance F_alk was being a mite facetious with his first comment, no? in order to contrast his more logical 2nd statement?

[Guest]

Thanks CC, that was what i would have said.

[El Jefe]

:oops: Oh, okay! I guess I lost something in the translation…
…from my eyes to my head.

Forget my first rejoinder. :oops:
Though I stand by my remainder. :P

A little poetic license…