Legitimate Military Target?

[TG Moses VI]

again with the sub-humans… :-?

[DasEwokSS]

eh well i was trying to put some sick and disturibing humor into the comment like i always try to do ;)

[Guest]

@EmuGod:

…
There is no genocide occurring in Israel.
…

I was talking of the future genocide you are afraid of, once Israel “accepts” Palestines as citizens with equal rights etc.

About your comment F_alk, fristly you are jumping in and attacking what you dont understand.

Well, maybe… but you do the same… :)

…Your nerves don’t make fire. If they did, I doubt you’d be feeling too good thorugh the incomplete combustion and increase in Carbon, coot and Carbon Monoxide in your system. If it was complete compustion, then the burning oxygen would have to be very very hot, which wouldnt feel too good either. Fire also refers to the creation of a new fire. So for example, if you light a candle on the eve of Shabbat, you cannot touch it on Shabbat and it stays lit. A car uses sparks to create fire to move, which is most likely why it cannot be used on shabbat.

THe sparks in cars are not fire at all:
And do not try to distract by showing you have not read about the Feynman story:) ….
He was being asked by these students wether electricity is fire…
he thought some time, explaining that fire is a sign of an electro-magnetic interaction, with a change of electrons, a transfer of chareges, which you therefore could call being electric. That was all they needed, they didn’t allow him to explain further.
I will do that :):
Now you nerves work by transfering charges, electro-magnetic interaction… which therefore is electricity which is fire.
Sitting on a chair: You do not fall through it because of electro-magnetic interaction between your outer electrons and the chairs… If i was orthodox, i would call it fire.
Anytthing that has to do with chemistry, that includes all bio-chemistry, that includes everything that happens inside oyur body: includes transfer of charges, electro-magnetic interaction… therefore is fire…

This stance is among the most non-understandable for me in all religions:
Ultra-orthodox judaism… trying to adapt modern day things to old records by not understanding the modern things on purpose.

[Yanny]

Yanny wrote:
2,000 Palestinian innocents dead, 800 Israeli innocents dead. Who kills more?

no context, no reference, no meaning.

But you yourself said:

The fighting has put off any prospect of Palestinian independence in the near future, has left the economy in shambles and led to the reoccupation of most West Bank towns by Israeli troops, in retaliation for Palestinian attacks. Almost 2,000 Palestinians and more than 650 Israelis have been killed.

The numbers I got (I forget from where, some News channel) reflect your numbers.

Yanny wrote:
2,000 Palestinian innocents dead, 800 Israeli innocents dead. Who kills more?

250,000 Americans and 350,000 British died in World War 2 while 5.2 million Nazis died in World War 2. Does that make the Nazis right for what they did because they had a high head count?

No, but this isn’t a war. This is the back and forth killing of innocents. And the simple truth is that more Palestinian innocents are dieing. And, at the same time, Israelis are destroying Palestinian homes, keeping them on 24/7 quarantine, withholding their taxdollars, and destroying their infrastructure. Sadly, with American weapons.

[EmuGod]

@F_alk:

@EmuGod:

…
There is no genocide occurring in Israel.
…

I was talking of the future genocide you are afraid of, once Israel “accepts” Palestines as citizens with equal rights etc.

About your comment F_alk, fristly you are jumping in and attacking what you dont understand.

Well, maybe… but you do the same… :)

…Your nerves don’t make fire. If they did, I doubt you’d be feeling too good thorugh the incomplete combustion and increase in Carbon, coot and Carbon Monoxide in your system. If it was complete compustion, then the burning oxygen would have to be very very hot, which wouldnt feel too good either. Fire also refers to the creation of a new fire. So for example, if you light a candle on the eve of Shabbat, you cannot touch it on Shabbat and it stays lit. A car uses sparks to create fire to move, which is most likely why it cannot be used on shabbat.

THe sparks in cars are not fire at all:
And do not try to distract by showing you have not read about the Feynman story:) ….
He was being asked by these students wether electricity is fire…
he thought some time, explaining that fire is a sign of an electro-magnetic interaction, with a change of electrons, a transfer of chareges, which you therefore could call being electric. That was all they needed, they didn’t allow him to explain further.
I will do that :):
Now you nerves work by transfering charges, electro-magnetic interaction… which therefore is electricity which is fire.
Sitting on a chair: You do not fall through it because of electro-magnetic interaction between your outer electrons and the chairs… If i was orthodox, i would call it fire.
Anytthing that has to do with chemistry, that includes all bio-chemistry, that includes everything that happens inside oyur body: includes transfer of charges, electro-magnetic interaction… therefore is fire…

This stance is among the most non-understandable for me in all religions:
Ultra-orthodox judaism… trying to adapt modern day things to old records by not understanding the modern things on purpose.

No, F_alk, once again you are making conclusions based on a lack of facts. Firstly, to make such a law as to whether electricity is allowed takes more than a simple arguement of thinking. I don’t know where you read that story, but I have not heard of it in my life and I dont think any of my more religious friends have either. The reason cars are considered fire is because they combust hydrocarbons, burning them up to produce the waste products of combustion. Electricity may not be fire directly, but it may fall under one of the other 39 categories of things that are not allowed on Shabbat. Your arguement is completely baseless and is attmepting to use what perhaps is a small section of a larger picture. When it comes down to it, electricity was not allowed. This was not done by one rabbi but by many over a period of many months, possibly years. If you want to understand the Talmud, you have to study it. Here, let me give you an example.

I’m going to ask you a question and I want you to answer it. Just answer the question and you can even post your reasoning. Everybody, please leave this to F_alk.

Case: Two people are cleaning a chimney and both fall down through it. One of them is clean and the other is dirty. Which one washes himself?

[cystic crypt]

people combust hydrocarbons, burning them up to produce the waste products of combustion . . . .

[Guest]

@EmuGod:

No, F_alk, once again you are making conclusions based on a lack of facts. Firstly, to make such a law as to whether electricity is allowed takes more than a simple arguement of thinking. I don’t know where you read that story, but I have not heard of it in my life and I dont think any of my more religious friends have either.

“You must be joking, Mr.Feynman” by R.Feynman… it’s in there.

The reason cars are considered fire is because they combust hydrocarbons, burning them up to produce the waste products of combustion. Electricity may not be fire directly, but it may fall under one of the other 39 categories of things that are not allowed on Shabbat.

For the combustion, thanks to CC with his post.
For the other 39 categories: well maybe, but then these students lied to Feynman.

Your arguement is completely baseless and is attmepting to use what perhaps is a small section of a larger picture.

well, call it baseless. I have read it, and from all the other little bits and peices i know what is allowed and what not, then Feynman’s version of the story sounds plausible.

…
Case: Two people are cleaning a chimney and both fall down through it. One of them is clean and the other is dirty. Which one washes himself?

(a) If i was highly religious, i would say: neither
(b) As i am not, i say: the dirty one will wash himself

Reasoning/comments:
@ (a): it was the higher beings will for one to be dirty and the other not… so who am i to decide.
@ (b): this answer is so obvious, that it just shouts out to be ripped to pieces.

[EmuGod]

Wrong, the clean man will wash himself. The clean man will look at the dirty man when he gets up, see that the dirty man is dirty and wash himself while the dirty man will see the clean man, think that he’s also clean and not wash himself. Now simply answer this question for me:

Two people are cleaning a chimeny and both fall down. One is clean and one is dirty. Which man washes himself?

Note: I’m perfectly aware that the question is the same, but please answer it again.

[Guest]

@EmuGod:

Wrong, the clean man will wash himself. The clean man will look at the dirty man when he gets up, see that the dirty man is dirty and wash himself while the dirty man will see the clean man, think that he’s also clean and not wash himself.

Hmmhmm… i can feel dirt on my skin. I can look at myself, before i look at others. I can smell someone is dirty, and see the other one is not.

Most important: I am not judging myself on what others are like.

Two people are cleaning a chimeny and both fall down. One is clean and one is dirty. Which man washes himself?

Note: I’m perfectly aware that the question is the same, but please answer it again.

Same question, same answer: the dirty one will wash himself.

[Guest]

@cystic:

people combust hydrocarbons, burning them up to produce the waste products of combustion . . . .

Emu, could you please explain the difference between burning sugar, oil, wood… and between creating electricity by hydro-, wind-, or nuclear-power? You directly transform motional energy (the first two) into electrical energy, or do it via heating water first (the last). There is not a bit of combustion in there.

Do i have to die as a Jew on Shabbat, in case i suddenly need an operation, like after a severe heart attack?

[EmuGod]

@F_alk:

@cystic:

people combust hydrocarbons, burning them up to produce the waste products of combustion . . . .

Emu, could you please explain the difference between burning sugar, oil, wood… and between creating electricity by hydro-, wind-, or nuclear-power? You directly transform motional energy (the first two) into electrical energy, or do it via heating water first (the last). There is not a bit of combustion in there.

Do i have to die as a Jew on Shabbat, in case i suddenly need an operation, like after a severe heart attack?

Firstly, no you do not die. In times of life threatening situations, you may break any and all of the 613 laws except for three - Gilooi Araiot (that’s the category of idolatry and incest), foreign/idol worship, and the spilling of blood. Those are the only three a Jew must die on but the rest can all be broken in life threatening situations. It’s more important that you live that keep Shabbat.

As for the question I askedy ou, you got it right. The dirty man does wash himself because he looks in the mirror, sees he is dirty and washes himself. The clean man looks in the mirror, sees that he’s clean and doesn’t wash himself. Now answer this question:

Two people are cleaning a chimney and both fall down. One is clean and one is dirty. Which man washes himself?

[Guest]

@EmuGod:

…
Two people are cleaning a chimney and both fall down. One is clean and one is dirty. Which man washes himself?

First thanks for the information.
Second: this gets boring. If you don’t mind, write down each and every answer given by the Rabbi… i fear now that we have two answers another two will follow (neither and both).

[EmuGod]

Explain this to me F_alk: How is it possible that two people are cleaining a chimeny, they both fall down and only one of them is dirty? :wink:

[Guest]

@EmuGod:

Explain this to me F_alk: How is it possible that two people are cleaining a chimeny, they both fall down and only one of them is dirty? :wink:

I have never observed that.
The examples given by you before, to think about, where nothing but gedankenexperiments: I just assumed that it happens like that, never siad it actually could happen.
So, no need for me to explain the how and why.

[EmuGod]

I was just trying to show a bit of how the Talmud operates. It takes cases and evaluates them, rabbis have opinions on what the law should be, and there are discussions on each opinion using what has been learned before. Each case is examined so carefully, that every word of the Hebrew of the Mishnah is analyzed. You go form a speific case to arguements that are so complex, that it is exetrmely hard to even remember the original question. The Talmud is extremely precise and it takes a long time of discussions to finalize the law. If you studied a page a day fo Talmud without the commentaries to help you understand and to stop you from getting lost, it would take you roughly 7 and a half years to study the entire thing.

[cystic crypt]

i have to admit - that Jewish philosophy is some neat s**t.

[Guest]

@EmuGod:

I was just trying to show a bit of how the Talmud operates. It takes cases and evaluates them, rabbis have opinions on what the law should be, and there are discussions on each opinion using what has been learned before. Each case is examined so carefully, that every word of the Hebrew of the Mishnah is analyzed. You go form a speific case to arguements that are so complex, that it is exetrmely hard to even remember the original question. The Talmud is extremely precise and it takes a long time of discussions to finalize the law. If you studied a page a day fo Talmud without the commentaries to help you understand and to stop you from getting lost, it would take you roughly 7 and a half years to study the entire thing.

Well, i must say, your demonstration of how it works didn’t convince me at all. Remember, i am a scientist: Setting up scenarios that just cannot happen doesn’t make sense to me, thinking about the most unlikely i only do when the more likely ones haves failed.
It seems to me the studies of the talmud is more a debaters club (no offense meant) or the study of just one philosophical school ( i respect studying philosophy, but not if you stick to one school and ignore all the others). I am sorry, but the way you describe it, it (a) looks extremely inefficient, and (b) ,even though discussions between people should be used to make up for the individuals flaws and faults, if all the discussing people share the same flaw (like not understanding modern day science), then this one flaw can not be come over by discussion.
There is a nice analogon, not in jewish but american history:
One of the states once wanted to make the circle-number Pi equal 3.
Fortunately, a mathematician cam e around, and could explain why this would not have been a good idea.

[EmuGod]

@F_alk:

@EmuGod:

I was just trying to show a bit of how the Talmud operates. It takes cases and evaluates them, rabbis have opinions on what the law should be, and there are discussions on each opinion using what has been learned before. Each case is examined so carefully, that every word of the Hebrew of the Mishnah is analyzed. You go form a speific case to arguements that are so complex, that it is exetrmely hard to even remember the original question. The Talmud is extremely precise and it takes a long time of discussions to finalize the law. If you studied a page a day fo Talmud without the commentaries to help you understand and to stop you from getting lost, it would take you roughly 7 and a half years to study the entire thing.

Well, i must say, your demonstration of how it works didn’t convince me at all. Remember, i am a scientist: Setting up scenarios that just cannot happen doesn’t make sense to me, thinking about the most unlikely i only do when the more likely ones haves failed.
It seems to me the studies of the talmud is more a debaters club (no offense meant) or the study of just one philosophical school ( i respect studying philosophy, but not if you stick to one school and ignore all the others). I am sorry, but the way you describe it, it (a) looks extremely inefficient, and (b) ,even though discussions between people should be used to make up for the individuals flaws and faults, if all the discussing people share the same flaw (like not understanding modern day science), then this one flaw can not be come over by discussion.
There is a nice analogon, not in jewish but american history:
One of the states once wanted to make the circle-number Pi equal 3.
Fortunately, a mathematician cam e around, and could explain why this would not have been a good idea.

How is it inefficient? It’s extremely efficient, just complex. The rabbis in the time of hte Talmud knew all the modern science and math of their time. For example, they could calculate the number of days in the Jewish and Christians calendars in order to know how often to set leap years in order to keep the Jewish and Christian calendars in sync and they knew how to calculate the number of horus required to wait between meat based foods and dairy foods for the dietary laws when following the Christian calendar.

As for the cases, I was trying to illustrate that when the Talmud makes a law, it takes into account almost every possible scenario when creating the law, so that it will be all encompassed. The reason I used such a rare case is because the common cases are obvious! I mean, the law when someone finds something on the street is easy but when two people claim they found it, each one says that he found it first, you have to make a law for that that will work for other situations if the logic is followed properly. also, some laws made by the Talmud are created to stop people from doing something not allowed. For example, writing on Shabbat is not allowed so the rabbis made holding any writing utensil on Shabbat not allowed because it could lead you to accidentaly writing.

[Guest]

@EmuGod:

How is it inefficient? It’s extremely efficient, just complex. The rabbis in the time of hte Talmud knew all the modern science and math of their time. For example, they could calculate the number of days in the Jewish and Christians calendars in order to know how often to set leap years in order to keep the Jewish and Christian calendars in sync and they knew how to calculate the number of horus required to wait between meat based foods and dairy foods for the dietary laws when following the Christian calendar.

The Rabbis of that time might have known all the science of that times. But they don’t know today, and still have to adapt the laws to the new technologies.
The knowledge of astronomy and the calendar to me seems not too impressive. It stands in the line of the ancient astronomers of Babylon, Egypt and elsewhere.
The ineffeciency was coined on the situation today.

As for the cases, I was trying to illustrate that when the Talmud makes a law, it takes into account almost every possible scenario when creating the law, so that it will be all encompassed. …

Well, that’s the way any law-giving works. And usually to the same result: there still are loopholes, gray zones etc., and everywhere it usually takes a bloody long time to get new laws done. There is one difference though: the influence of “experts” (in the field the law will affect) on the lawmakers.

For example, writing on Shabbat is not allowed so the rabbis made holding any writing utensil on Shabbat not allowed because it could lead you to accidentaly writing.

is drawing allowed? probably not, as it is hard to distinguish writing and drawing utensils.

[EmuGod]

What makesy ou know that they don’t know the modern science today? Wait, you don’t know. in fact, there are many that do. One of the rabbis at my school studied chemistry, physics and biology nad did very well in them. It’s statements such as those that make no sense.

Also, the Jewish calendar is quite efficient as it is a hybrid lunar-solar calendar. Let me ask you, what makes the current calendar more efficient? At least with the lunar-solar calendar you know ho many days there are in a month. with the solar you can choose how many days in a week and how many months in a year. There is really no starting point and no defined set of days, weeks or months that you need to have.