@F_alk:
Now, F_alk, of course they are used to adapt to modern times. The reaso nthe students wanted to know if electricity is like fire is because one of the things that one is not allowed to do is to create fire on Shabbat, so the rabbinical authority had to analyze exactly what electricity is, go through the Talmud and her discussions to see if it falls under the category of something that is allowed or not. In the end, electricty was not allowed to be used on shabbat, along with other things such as driving a car.
But why is it that they didn’t want to understand it? By the logic these students used you have to die each shabbat. None of your nerves is allowed to work on Shabbat, as it is “creating fire”.
I guess that would better fit into a new thread.
For the other topic we taked about: The world did not allow a genocide in the Kosove, why should it allow one in Israel/Palestine?
There is no genocide occurring in Israel. I don’t call announcing the checks in the morning for the afternoon and then coming in and killing those who are trying to kill you genocide. Genocide would be coming in and purposelyu tragetting the civilians and killing as many as possible. If Israel wanted to do this, she wouldn’t send in her infantry. She’d use her IAF to wipe out the cities with no casualties.
About your comment F_alk, fristly you are jumping in and attacking what you dont understand. If you read the Shabbat tractate, which is quite big and would take quite a while, you’d see the analysis for all the 39 major categories of things that cannot be done on shabbat and how they’re categories have sub-categories. Your nerves don’t make fire. If they did, I doubt you’d be feeling too good thorugh the incomplete combustion and increase in Carbon, coot and Carbon Monoxide in your system. If it was complete compustion, then the burning oxygen would have to be very very hot, which wouldnt feel too good either. Fire also refers to the creation of a new fire. So for example, if you light a candle on the eve of Shabbat, you cannot touch it on Shabbat and it stays lit. A car uses sparks to create fire to move, which is most likely why it cannot be used on shabbat.
You still did’nt anwser my question about the legitimacy of the jew in palestine, i am very curious (sorry).
You still did’nt anwser my question about the legitimacy of the jew in palestine, i am very curious (sorry).
Which question would that be? If you post it here again, I’ll be glad to answer it.
what is the legitimacy of the jews in palestine ?
2,000 Palestinian innocents dead, 800 Israeli innocents dead. Who kills more?
2,000 Palestinian innocents dead, 800 Israeli innocents dead. Who kills more?
250,000 Americans and 350,000 British died in World War 2 while 5.2 million Nazis died in World War 2. Does that make the Nazis right for what they did because they had a high head count?
2,000 Palestinian innocents dead, 800 Israeli innocents dead. Who kills more?
no context, no reference, no meaning.
Emu u are forgetting about the 20 Million SubHumans, oops i meant Russians who were killed ;)
again with the sub-humans… :-?
eh well i was trying to put some sick and disturibing humor into the comment like i always try to do ;)
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There is no genocide occurring in Israel.
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I was talking of the future genocide you are afraid of, once Israel “accepts” Palestines as citizens with equal rights etc.
About your comment F_alk, fristly you are jumping in and attacking what you dont understand.
Well, maybe… but you do the same… :)
…Your nerves don’t make fire. If they did, I doubt you’d be feeling too good thorugh the incomplete combustion and increase in Carbon, coot and Carbon Monoxide in your system. If it was complete compustion, then the burning oxygen would have to be very very hot, which wouldnt feel too good either. Fire also refers to the creation of a new fire. So for example, if you light a candle on the eve of Shabbat, you cannot touch it on Shabbat and it stays lit. A car uses sparks to create fire to move, which is most likely why it cannot be used on shabbat.
THe sparks in cars are not fire at all:
And do not try to distract by showing you have not read about the Feynman story:) ….
He was being asked by these students wether electricity is fire…
he thought some time, explaining that fire is a sign of an electro-magnetic interaction, with a change of electrons, a transfer of chareges, which you therefore could call being electric. That was all they needed, they didn’t allow him to explain further.
I will do that :):
Now you nerves work by transfering charges, electro-magnetic interaction… which therefore is electricity which is fire.
Sitting on a chair: You do not fall through it because of electro-magnetic interaction between your outer electrons and the chairs… If i was orthodox, i would call it fire.
Anytthing that has to do with chemistry, that includes all bio-chemistry, that includes everything that happens inside oyur body: includes transfer of charges, electro-magnetic interaction… therefore is fire…
This stance is among the most non-understandable for me in all religions:
Ultra-orthodox judaism… trying to adapt modern day things to old records by not understanding the modern things on purpose.
Yanny wrote:
2,000 Palestinian innocents dead, 800 Israeli innocents dead. Who kills more?no context, no reference, no meaning.
But you yourself said:
The fighting has put off any prospect of Palestinian independence in the near future, has left the economy in shambles and led to the reoccupation of most West Bank towns by Israeli troops, in retaliation for Palestinian attacks. Almost 2,000 Palestinians and more than 650 Israelis have been killed.
The numbers I got (I forget from where, some News channel) reflect your numbers.
Yanny wrote:
2,000 Palestinian innocents dead, 800 Israeli innocents dead. Who kills more?250,000 Americans and 350,000 British died in World War 2 while 5.2 million Nazis died in World War 2. Does that make the Nazis right for what they did because they had a high head count?
No, but this isn’t a war. This is the back and forth killing of innocents. And the simple truth is that more Palestinian innocents are dieing. And, at the same time, Israelis are destroying Palestinian homes, keeping them on 24/7 quarantine, withholding their taxdollars, and destroying their infrastructure. Sadly, with American weapons.
@F_alk:
…
There is no genocide occurring in Israel.
…I was talking of the future genocide you are afraid of, once Israel “accepts” Palestines as citizens with equal rights etc.
About your comment F_alk, fristly you are jumping in and attacking what you dont understand.
Well, maybe… but you do the same… :)
…Your nerves don’t make fire. If they did, I doubt you’d be feeling too good thorugh the incomplete combustion and increase in Carbon, coot and Carbon Monoxide in your system. If it was complete compustion, then the burning oxygen would have to be very very hot, which wouldnt feel too good either. Fire also refers to the creation of a new fire. So for example, if you light a candle on the eve of Shabbat, you cannot touch it on Shabbat and it stays lit. A car uses sparks to create fire to move, which is most likely why it cannot be used on shabbat.
THe sparks in cars are not fire at all:
And do not try to distract by showing you have not read about the Feynman story:) ….
He was being asked by these students wether electricity is fire…
he thought some time, explaining that fire is a sign of an electro-magnetic interaction, with a change of electrons, a transfer of chareges, which you therefore could call being electric. That was all they needed, they didn’t allow him to explain further.
I will do that :):
Now you nerves work by transfering charges, electro-magnetic interaction… which therefore is electricity which is fire.
Sitting on a chair: You do not fall through it because of electro-magnetic interaction between your outer electrons and the chairs… If i was orthodox, i would call it fire.
Anytthing that has to do with chemistry, that includes all bio-chemistry, that includes everything that happens inside oyur body: includes transfer of charges, electro-magnetic interaction… therefore is fire…This stance is among the most non-understandable for me in all religions:
Ultra-orthodox judaism… trying to adapt modern day things to old records by not understanding the modern things on purpose.
No, F_alk, once again you are making conclusions based on a lack of facts. Firstly, to make such a law as to whether electricity is allowed takes more than a simple arguement of thinking. I don’t know where you read that story, but I have not heard of it in my life and I dont think any of my more religious friends have either. The reason cars are considered fire is because they combust hydrocarbons, burning them up to produce the waste products of combustion. Electricity may not be fire directly, but it may fall under one of the other 39 categories of things that are not allowed on Shabbat. Your arguement is completely baseless and is attmepting to use what perhaps is a small section of a larger picture. When it comes down to it, electricity was not allowed. This was not done by one rabbi but by many over a period of many months, possibly years. If you want to understand the Talmud, you have to study it. Here, let me give you an example.
I’m going to ask you a question and I want you to answer it. Just answer the question and you can even post your reasoning. Everybody, please leave this to F_alk.
Case: Two people are cleaning a chimney and both fall down through it. One of them is clean and the other is dirty. Which one washes himself?
people combust hydrocarbons, burning them up to produce the waste products of combustion . . . .
No, F_alk, once again you are making conclusions based on a lack of facts. Firstly, to make such a law as to whether electricity is allowed takes more than a simple arguement of thinking. I don’t know where you read that story, but I have not heard of it in my life and I dont think any of my more religious friends have either.
“You must be joking, Mr.Feynman” by R.Feynman… it’s in there.
The reason cars are considered fire is because they combust hydrocarbons, burning them up to produce the waste products of combustion. Electricity may not be fire directly, but it may fall under one of the other 39 categories of things that are not allowed on Shabbat.
For the combustion, thanks to CC with his post.
For the other 39 categories: well maybe, but then these students lied to Feynman.
Your arguement is completely baseless and is attmepting to use what perhaps is a small section of a larger picture.
well, call it baseless. I have read it, and from all the other little bits and peices i know what is allowed and what not, then Feynman’s version of the story sounds plausible.
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Case: Two people are cleaning a chimney and both fall down through it. One of them is clean and the other is dirty. Which one washes himself?
(a) If i was highly religious, i would say: neither
(b) As i am not, i say: the dirty one will wash himself
Reasoning/comments:
@ (a): it was the higher beings will for one to be dirty and the other not… so who am i to decide.
@ (b): this answer is so obvious, that it just shouts out to be ripped to pieces.
Wrong, the clean man will wash himself. The clean man will look at the dirty man when he gets up, see that the dirty man is dirty and wash himself while the dirty man will see the clean man, think that he’s also clean and not wash himself. Now simply answer this question for me:
Two people are cleaning a chimeny and both fall down. One is clean and one is dirty. Which man washes himself?
Note: I’m perfectly aware that the question is the same, but please answer it again.
Wrong, the clean man will wash himself. The clean man will look at the dirty man when he gets up, see that the dirty man is dirty and wash himself while the dirty man will see the clean man, think that he’s also clean and not wash himself.
Hmmhmm… i can feel dirt on my skin. I can look at myself, before i look at others. I can smell someone is dirty, and see the other one is not.
Most important: I am not judging myself on what others are like.
Two people are cleaning a chimeny and both fall down. One is clean and one is dirty. Which man washes himself?
Note: I’m perfectly aware that the question is the same, but please answer it again.
Same question, same answer: the dirty one will wash himself.
@cystic:
people combust hydrocarbons, burning them up to produce the waste products of combustion . . . .
Emu, could you please explain the difference between burning sugar, oil, wood… and between creating electricity by hydro-, wind-, or nuclear-power? You directly transform motional energy (the first two) into electrical energy, or do it via heating water first (the last). There is not a bit of combustion in there.
Do i have to die as a Jew on Shabbat, in case i suddenly need an operation, like after a severe heart attack?
@F_alk:
@cystic:
people combust hydrocarbons, burning them up to produce the waste products of combustion . . . .
Emu, could you please explain the difference between burning sugar, oil, wood… and between creating electricity by hydro-, wind-, or nuclear-power? You directly transform motional energy (the first two) into electrical energy, or do it via heating water first (the last). There is not a bit of combustion in there.
Do i have to die as a Jew on Shabbat, in case i suddenly need an operation, like after a severe heart attack?
Firstly, no you do not die. In times of life threatening situations, you may break any and all of the 613 laws except for three - Gilooi Araiot (that’s the category of idolatry and incest), foreign/idol worship, and the spilling of blood. Those are the only three a Jew must die on but the rest can all be broken in life threatening situations. It’s more important that you live that keep Shabbat.
As for the question I askedy ou, you got it right. The dirty man does wash himself because he looks in the mirror, sees he is dirty and washes himself. The clean man looks in the mirror, sees that he’s clean and doesn’t wash himself. Now answer this question:
Two people are cleaning a chimney and both fall down. One is clean and one is dirty. Which man washes himself?
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Two people are cleaning a chimney and both fall down. One is clean and one is dirty. Which man washes himself?
First thanks for the information.
Second: this gets boring. If you don’t mind, write down each and every answer given by the Rabbi… i fear now that we have two answers another two will follow (neither and both).
