Indian Fleet Alternatives

[Mallery29]

If Egypt attack fails and you still have your FTR, either the BB or E.Indies are both viable.  If you do go in the Med, you provide a lot of protection/distraction for the Russians.  You will probably only lose the Cruiser.  As for the Aussie fleet, I would probably have the Cruiser/Trans run like hell and try to position the sub into a strike position or take New Guinea as an irritant (but this is only a 1 IPC gain).  Going into the Med can be a good idea.

Taking out the E. Indies fleet buys India/US time, which you severely need to prevent the India crush.  Transports can’t be taken as fodder, but you can send Aussies to India and land UK2.  The Indian transport can be used to help fortify India/Egypt as required…you have options.  But like I said, this buys the US time to help support the Pac attack in KJF.  Japan will be out 54 IPCs (BB/CV/2FTR) right off the start, and that’s not counting what will have to go kill the remaining Brits.  If you buy land units for India and a FTR or two for UK, you can shuttle FTRs to India to make it a fortress.  But the UK needs to be saving money at the same time for a UK3/4 fleet drop of UK to take the heat off the Russians.

If you go Med, I would say get US/UK help in the Atlantic ASAP for KGF.  If you go E. Indies, then get US in Pac for KJF. Just don’t take Indian defenses lightly.

[miamiumike]

During the first two plays, it seemed obvious that UK should throw everything at the fleet off E. Indies - it is about a 60% win chance. However, both games ended in Allied losses - so I am left to wonder, maybe that isn’t the best use of the fleet after all.

The problem is that if it goes as expected, you might have one plane left - no ships to protect whatever transports you have out there. Maybe not a huge problem. If the battle goes against you though (as it did in one game), I think UK is in a lot of trouble.

What is difficult is making that first purchase for UK in India. If I knew my attack would work, buying a carrier and dd would make sense. You can land your surviving fighter on it, and if you position the Russian fighter, you can land it too - at least for one turn. Then, on turn 2, you could add to that fleet - I don’t think Japan could get through a 5-6 unit fleet AND have enough to take India as well? I do not have the numbers in front of me…

MM

[Mallery29]

If your UK FTR survives, send it to India…don’t buy a fleet that is destined to die.  Some combo of inf/art/tank/FTR in India is a great investment on UK1 and 2.  With reinforcements from Burma, Aus, Persia and possibly Syria depending on the Egypt conundrum, your UK1/2 buys should stack India (US FTR, possibly FTR from UK, UK bomber in Caucus for flex attacks East or West).  Japan will have a hard time competing with a Indian builds while trying to face the US fleet.

Have your Allies gone KJF or KGF?  If you can kill the 2FTR at E.Indies (even if your fleet is wiped out), the odds of saving India greatly increase.  You can instantly stalemate India, and begin saving cash on UK1/2/3 for fleet drop on UK3/4 in Atlantic.

I like the Med path too, would like to know how that goes for UK and the allies.

[adaptation]

@Hobbes:

@adaptation:

Sinking German BB TRN is a very solid move if you kept egypt. This pretty much secures Africa which is a major point.

Attacking the Japanese BB,CV,2FTR is NEVER a good move without the egypt fighter and even that isn’t that great

Sending both the australian fleet and indian fleet on the japanese fleet gives this:

2Cruiser,1FTR,1AC,1sub,2trans (12 in attack value) vs 1BB,1AC,2FTR(15 attack value).

While the 2 transport can take some damage, it is still not worth it.With the egypt fighter, its 15 vs 15(in rolling value), but at least you get to absorb two shots with your transports. However you leave egypt empty(and the german fleet intact).

Last time I checked the rules, transports are still the last unit removed during battles, both for the attacker and the defender…

So they are not part of combat at all - like in AA50?. I guess my OG Axis and Allies habits made me bypass these rules.

Forget my entire post then…

[Hobbes]

@miamiumike:

During the first two plays, it seemed obvious that UK should throw everything at the fleet off E. Indies - it is about a 60% win chance. However, both games ended in Allied losses - so I am left to wonder, maybe that isn’t the best use of the fleet after all.

The problem is that if it goes as expected, you might have one plane left - no ships to protect whatever transports you have out there. Maybe not a huge problem. If the battle goes against you though (as it did in one game), I think UK is in a lot of trouble.

To me 60% odds are on the border between a risk and a gamble. I’ve also manage to win with the Allies without attacking SZ37 so it’s more of a choice than a complete necessity for the Allies.

[Hobbes]

@adaptation:

So they are not part of combat at all - like in AA50?. I guess my OG Axis and Allies habits made me bypass these rules.

And on AA50 transports are defenseless too and are the last casualties to be removed… it was when that rule was introduced ;)

[AxisBrutality]

@miamiumike:

During the first two plays, it seemed obvious that UK should throw everything at the fleet off E. Indies - it is about a 60% win chance. However, both games ended in Allied losses - so I am left to wonder, maybe that isn’t the best use of the fleet after all.

The problem is that if it goes as expected, you might have one plane left - no ships to protect whatever transports you have out there. Maybe not a huge problem. If the battle goes against you though (as it did in one game), I think UK is in a lot of trouble.

What is difficult is making that first purchase for UK in India. If I knew my attack would work, buying a carrier and dd would make sense. You can land your surviving fighter on it, and if you position the Russian fighter, you can land it too - at least for one turn. Then, on turn 2, you could add to that fleet - I don’t think Japan could get through a 5-6 unit fleet AND have enough to take India as well? I do not have the numbers in front of me…

MM

That was extreme unluck. The calculator says 62,1% chance of winning for the UK. 32,7% for Japan. So UK should win 2 out of 3 times. So that should be solid choice.
The only other way is to run away with the UK fleet, or to merge it at SZ30, but still, Japan gets to strong, and they knock out everything in China on J1, can’t allow that wall to die there right away, and India will be massively under pressure. So I feel that E-Indies fleet has to go. UK also have an option on taking Borneo with 4 IPC while we are at it, but India loses 2 INF then.

[AxisBrutality]

@Mallery29:

If your UK FTR survives, send it to India…don’t buy a fleet that is destined to die.  Some combo of inf/art/tank/FTR in India is a great investment on UK1 and 2.  With reinforcements from Burma, Aus, Persia and possibly Syria depending on the Egypt conundrum, your UK1/2 buys should stack India (US FTR, possibly FTR from UK, UK bomber in Caucus for flex attacks East or West).  Japan will have a hard time competing with a Indian builds while trying to face the US fleet.

Have your Allies gone KJF or KGF?  If you can kill the 2FTR at E.Indies (even if your fleet is wiped out), the odds of saving India greatly increase.  You can instantly stalemate India, and begin saving cash on UK1/2/3 for fleet drop on UK3/4 in Atlantic.

I like the Med path too, would like to know how that goes for UK and the allies.

In theory at least, by saving Egypt with Russian FTR, puts pressure on Germany on Libya. Germany would have to have 6 units there or 4 units + 2 FTR in order to be safe from a counter attack from UK which can bring in 1 INF, 1 Art, 1 Tank, 1 Bomber, 2 FTRs. And then re-inforce Egypt with 1 INF from Syria + 1 INF from Iran which a Transport from India can bring over to Egypt right away.

You said you would take out U.S ships on G1. That also allows UK to dump 1 Tank in Morocco on UK1.

[Mallery29]

You said you would take out U.S ships on G1. That also allows UK to dump 1 Tank in Morocco on UK1.

a 3 vs 2?  I’ll take those odds…plus I get to sack the UK trans? cool.  Better than US dropping 4 guys in Morocco (I’d still get to sack the transports though…which is cool too.)

Axis don’t need Africa to win (it helps only if you don’t have to waste resources…that’s what Russian lands are for.

[AxisBrutality]

@Mallery29:

You said you would take out U.S ships on G1. That also allows UK to dump 1 Tank in Morocco on UK1.

a 3 vs 2? � I’ll take those odds…plus I get to sack the UK trans? cool. � Better than US dropping 4 guys in Morocco (I’d still get to sack the transports though…which is cool too.)

Axis don’t need Africa to win (it helps only if you don’t have to waste resources…that’s what Russian lands are for.

You said yourself that a UK DD can’t do much alone so why not use that Transport for something + UK DD can attack German Subs outside Eastern U.S. So UK DD does something, it can attack + UK Transport does something also, taking or attacking Morocco if you didn’t move your 1 German INF from there.  
Another option is to attack Norway if Germany has moved those 2 INF towards Finland. If not, then good for Russia.

[Mallery29]

why would you cripple Indian defenses to save Egypt?  You have to make up your mind on that…either Egypt gets the D, or India does, you can’t have it both ways.  By attacking Libya you:
1. Open yourself to Sealion
2. Open yourself to the India crush.

one of those scenarios is bad…having both happen is game over.  Go after Libya and you will set yourself back.  It’s good thinking, but I think Libya/Africa doesn’t have to be so much of a priority now with India having the IC from the start…on 42.1, yeah, Africa was important for the Allies…but the Pacific has so greatly changed that I think this is more balanced than 42.1, which is cool…but we’ll continue to see how that “balance” plays out over time…I just expect to see a hell of a lot more KJF.

[Mallery29]

You should use the DD to take down the remaing SS off of EUS (although my last game US won outright in the 2SS vs DD…that hurt me…lots of bad rolls for the Axis in that game).  The trans I would save…going for Norway will be a short lived negative investment for the UK…better to save the trans for later when you can drop a UK fleet.  Your forces will get killed in Norway, lose the transport, and will have not saved Russia from anything.

[AxisBrutality]

@Mallery29:

why would you cripple Indian defenses to save Egypt? � You have to make up your mind on that…either Egypt gets the D, or India does, you can’t have it both ways. � By attacking Libya you:
1. Open yourself to Sealion
2. Open yourself to the India crush.

one of those scenarios is bad…having both happen is game over. � Go after Libya and you will set yourself back. � It’s good thinking, but I think Libya/Africa doesn’t have to be so much of a priority now with India having the IC from the start…on 42.1, yeah, Africa was important for the Allies…but the Pacific has so greatly changed that I think this is more balanced than 42.1, which is cool…but we’ll continue to see how that “balance” plays out over time…I just expect to see a hell of a lot more KJF.

I don’t disagree, I like much more saving Egypt so that UK can reinforce India and destroy the E-Indies fleet of course. Now we are just discussing about Med-option, what can be done there. I would not take any units from India, just Iran INF + Syria to support Egypt.

I know this is radical, but imagine this. German player knows he can’t take Egypt on G1, since Russian FTR is there. Ok, so the German player puts German FTRs, where, most probably 50/50 Ukraine and France or most of it on France. Not many go to Libya anyway.

Now imagine this, UK player suddently pops up a UK IC on Egypt, lol, that would be fun:) + bying 2 Armor, 1 Art for India = 31 IPC. UK can have 3 INF, 1 Art, 1 Tank, 2 FTR defending that IC.  Would be fun to test that, but it only works if German player doesn’t know you plan something like this.

[AxisBrutality]

Now imagine this, UK player suddently pops up a UK IC on Egypt, lol, that would be fun:) + bying 2 Armor, 1 Art for India = 31 IPC. UK can have 3 INF, 1 Art, 1 Tank, 2 FTR defending that IC. � Would be fun to test that, but it only works if German player doesn’t know you plan something like this.

–----------------

Actually 3 FTR, forgot the Russian FTR. So 3 INF, 1 Art, 1 Tank, 3 FTR defending a possible UK IC. It is very difficult for Germany to position enough forces that can prevent a UK IC on Egypt. This is actually the only way for UK to produce units without having to save cash for several rounds. UK can on UK2 buy 2 Armor on Egypt so it’s a brutal force right there.

[Mallery29]

@AxisBrutality:

Now imagine this, UK player suddently pops up a UK IC on Egypt, lol, that would be fun:) + bying 2 Armor, 1 Art for India = 31 IPC. UK can have 3 INF, 1 Art, 1 Tank, 2 FTR defending that IC. ��� Would be fun to test that, but it only works if German player doesn’t know you plan something like this.

Actually 3 FTR, forgot the Russian FTR. So 3 INF, 1 Art, 1 Tank, 3 FTR defending a possible UK IC. It is very difficult for Germany to position enough forces that can prevent a UK IC on Egypt. This is actually the only way for UK to produce units without having to save cash for several rounds. UK can on UK2 buy 2 Armor on Egypt so it’s a brutal force right there.

Send the India fleet to the Med and try it out….your best way to protect the investment would be that move.  I’d probably just go inf/art/tank in India to save the 3 if you went that route (and take New Guinea as well).  This way UK2 you can drop 2tanks in Egypt, inf/art/tank India, FTR UK.  Just have the US put lots of pressure on Japan to prevent your ICs from getting backdoored.  UK2 I’d have the UK FTRs and Egypt FTRs go back to India to prevent an Indian crush…this could lead to Japan taking Egypt…I’d try it once, but the more I think about this…it’s scary for both sides.

[ICinBrazil]

As much as I would like an alternative, I really don’t see one. To me it seems that leaving the south IJN alive can lead to a resemblance of the ole godzilla Japan. From the looks of it, one good take the three China territories and  Burma. The IJN is consolidated in SZ61 for a possible J2 India push.

[UrJohn]

@ICinBrazil:

The IJN is consolidated in SZ61 for a possible J2 India push.

Oh no the J3IC rears its ugly head again. Only, this time it’s the J2IP!

[AxisBrutality]

Send the India fleet to the Med and try it out….your best way to protect the investment would be that move. � I’d probably just go inf/art/tank in India to save the 3 if you went that route (and take New Guinea as well). � This way UK2 you can drop 2tanks in Egypt, inf/art/tank India, FTR UK. � Just have the US put lots of pressure on Japan to prevent your ICs from getting backdoored.  UK2 I’d have the UK FTRs and Egypt FTRs go back to India to prevent an Indian crush…this could lead to Japan taking Egypt…I’d try it once, but the more I think about this…it’s scary for both sides.

Yes, I’ll try it out this weekend. Fleet to Med is good suggestion and with IC on Egypt, that will give Germany some nightmare scenarios. It’s a good build-up suggestion too. I was thinking of 5 tanks - 2 on Egypt and 3 on India on UK2, but I can try also what you suggested. FTRs can always fly to India to protect India before J2, so I can’t see Japan taking India on J2 anyway. By UK3, all Germans in Northern Africa will be dead unless Germany wants to fight there and that means less pressure on Russia.  The faster I can clear Northern Africa of Germany, the faster can India be re-inforced with units from Egypt. Those 2 FTR from London could also land on India or Egypt on UK2, and I could move 2-3 FTR from Egypt to India, so they kind of trade off. There is an alternative route 2 UK FTR can fly, if not Archangel then West Africa.

I would love to put pressure with the U.S. on Japan in this scenario since Japan is more “free” since we are focusing on Med-strategy here. Then Alaska IC seems tempting, only 2 spaces from Japan. I would not need Alaska IC if we go our regular “take out E-Indies and build tanks on India strategy” which is great strategy, but if we go Med-strategy, then I think Alaska pressure on Japan would be good, since Japan can not take India on J2, and at the same time, Japan would have to worry about 2 battleships or something being placed on Alaska on US2, which makes Japan think very hard on what they can do on J3, because USA will have some sick fleet on US3 to strike with from Alaska.

[Slackaveli]

@Mallery29:

You should use the DD to take down the remaing SS off of EUS (although my last game US won outright in the 2SS vs DD…that hurt me…lots of bad rolls for the Axis in that game).  The trans I would save…going for Norway will be a short lived negative investment for the UK…better to save the trans for later when you can drop a UK fleet.  Your forces will get killed in Norway, lose the transport, and will have not saved Russia from anything.

taking norway is a good move once germany navy is gone. it just seems MUCH easier to hold for the allies.

[Slackaveli]

@ICinBrazil:

As much as I would like an alternative, I really don’t see one. To me it seems that leaving the south IJN alive can lead to a resemblance of the ole godzilla Japan. From the looks of it, one good take the three China territories and  Burma. The IJN is consolidated in SZ61 for a possible J2 India push.

just played one where japan went godzilla but with no fleet to oppoae them, they were a worthless fleet and germany fell. 2 hours later, so did japan (9 bombers and 6 subs wrecked 3 carriers and 3 battleships.