Indian Fleet Alternatives

[MistuhJay]

From what I’ve read, it looks like the two most viable uses for UK’s Indian fleet are sinking the German BB/Trn on a failed Egypt attack, or joining with the Australian fleet in a strike on Japan’ East Indies fleet. Are there any other options?

~joining fleets SW of East Indies, build 3 subs at India (no Jap destroyers in range to sink them)
~adding BB/DD or 3x DD to Indian fleet (not sure what to do with Australian fleet after this, maybe leave it south of the EI fleet to threaten EI if not dealt with. If Japan does attack, it, Indian fleet can counter)
~Indian fleet attacks Borneo, Egy FTR lands on carrier, mainly to slow Japan. No clue what to do with Aussie fleet

It feels like the Allies have been improved in the Pacific, especially due to the Japanese having a much more difficult time executing a successful Pearl Harbor. The thinking behind the first two options is to have strong UK naval + strong US naval = too much for Japan.

Your thoughts?

[Mallery29]

Buying naval bad for India, especially if you don’t kill the E. Indies fleet.  If the entire Japanese fleet musters at FIC and hits everything in Burma, India will fall next turn…sure, you can attack with your fleet, but the Japanese will have 6(4s) in there…you will do damage, but not enough to save India.  Build defensive units in India, while using the transports to reinforce

Sure, the US can get there to defeat the remaining Japan fleet, but India will be gone and the Axis will be knock knock knocking on Caucus’s door…

[MistuhJay]

@Mallery29:

Buying naval bad for India, especially if you don’t kill the E. Indies fleet.  If the entire Japanese fleet musters at FIC and hits everything in Burma, India will fall next turn…sure, you can attack with your fleet, but the Japanese will have 6(4s) in there…you will do damage, but not enough to save India.  Build defensive units in India, while using the transports to reinforce

Sure, the US can get there to defeat the remaining Japan fleet, but India will be gone and the Axis will be knock knock knocking on Caucus’s door…

Okay, that makes sense- buying navy at India means not buying land means Japan takes India. Does this make attacking the EI fleet a foregone conclusion? What if Germany takes out the Egy FTR, making the attack less likely to succeed?

[adaptation]

Sinking German BB TRN is a very solid move if you kept egypt. This pretty much secures Africa which is a major point.

Attacking the Japanese BB,CV,2FTR is NEVER a good move without the egypt fighter and even that isn’t that great

Sending both the australian fleet and indian fleet on the japanese fleet gives this:

2Cruiser,1FTR,1AC,1sub,2trans (12 in attack value) vs 1BB,1AC,2FTR(15 attack value).

While the 2 transport can take some damage, it is still not worth it. With the egypt fighter, its 15 vs 15(in rolling value), but at least you get to absorb two shots with your transports. However you leave egypt empty(and the german fleet intact).
While you can always attempt to take out the egyptian fleet with your cruiser in sz14(south of france) and your UK bomber(fairly risky). Then again, you still have egypt with only 1 infantry(you move the transjordan inf to egypt).

All of this is assuming Germany tried and failed a G1 Egypt attack. If they stacked up for a G2 attack, the whole thing takes a different turn(which i won’t get into here).

Back to the pacific fleet - If Germany gets egypt, most of the time you should try to get it back using your transport and fighter from india. Fighter(from india)+UK bomber+Cruiser in sz14 can take out German fleet.

The rest of the fleet, as boring as it seems, should stack up in sea zone 30(the seazone where the indian and australian fleet can meet, near Antarctica!). From there the play defense and try to drop on Japanese Islands or go towards the med, depends on what Japan does, as well as the US plan.

[Hobbes]

@adaptation:

Sinking German BB TRN is a very solid move if you kept egypt. This pretty much secures Africa which is a major point.

Attacking the Japanese BB,CV,2FTR is NEVER a good move without the egypt fighter and even that isn’t that great

Sending both the australian fleet and indian fleet on the japanese fleet gives this:

2Cruiser,1FTR,1AC,1sub,2trans (12 in attack value) vs 1BB,1AC,2FTR(15 attack value).

While the 2 transport can take some damage, it is still not worth it.With the egypt fighter, its 15 vs 15(in rolling value), but at least you get to absorb two shots with your transports. However you leave egypt empty(and the german fleet intact).

Last time I checked the rules, transports are still the last unit removed during battles, both for the attacker and the defender…

[AxisBrutality]

@adaptation:

Sinking German BB TRN is a very solid move if you kept egypt. This pretty much secures Africa which is a major point.

Attacking the Japanese BB,CV,2FTR is NEVER a good move without the egypt fighter and even that isn’t that great

Sending both the australian fleet and indian fleet on the japanese fleet gives this:

2Cruiser,1FTR,1AC,1sub,2trans (12 in attack value) vs 1BB,1AC,2FTR(15 attack value).

While the 2 transport can take some damage, it is still not worth it. With the egypt fighter, its 15 vs 15(in rolling value), but at least you get to absorb two shots with your transports. However you leave egypt empty(and the german fleet intact).
While you can always attempt to take out the egyptian fleet with your cruiser in sz14(south of france) and your UK bomber(fairly risky). Then again, you still have egypt with only 1 infantry(you move the transjordan inf to egypt).

All of this is assuming Germany tried and failed a G1 Egypt attack. If they stacked up for a G2 attack, the whole thing takes a different turn(which i won’t get into here).

Back to the pacific fleet - If Germany gets egypt, most of the time you should try to get it back using your transport and fighter from india. Fighter(from india)+UK bomber+Cruiser in sz14 can take out German fleet.

The rest of the fleet, as boring as it seems, should stack up in sea zone 30(the seazone where the indian and australian fleet can meet, near Antarctica!). From there the play defense and try to drop on Japanese Islands or go towards the med, depends on what Japan does, as well as the US plan.

Hi,
Well, you can’t sink German BB since UK Cruiser on Gibraltar will be dead, most likely attacked by 3 German FTRs. And if Germany goes to Egypt, then UK DD outside Syria is finished too, so basically UK will have 1 Bomber and 1 FTR to attack the German BB with, and that’s not a good idea.

That’s why Russian FTR from Moscow need to go to Egypt on R1, so you don’t need to think of these problems German can cause:)

Yes, UK can gather their fleet on SZ30, I argued for that earlier, however it seems it’s better to kill the E-Indies fleet, because Japan gets totaly crazy if that fleet survives, so it really has to go + a land attack combination by the UK which I mentioned in Russia opening move thread will also work a lot better to put pressure on FIC.

Also there is another option, if you really want to take a valuable island from Japan, then take the one that gives you 4 IPC, which is E-Indies. Trust that your UK Fleet - 2 FTR, Carrier, Submarine, 2 Cruisers will take out Japanese fleet, and then land 4 UK INF to attack 2 Japanese INF. 2 UK INF from India and 2 UK INF from Australia.  That would weaken a little bit my land combination attack by 2 UK INF, but, it’s a good alternative.

[Mallery29]

If Egypt attack fails and you still have your FTR, either the BB or E.Indies are both viable.  If you do go in the Med, you provide a lot of protection/distraction for the Russians.  You will probably only lose the Cruiser.  As for the Aussie fleet, I would probably have the Cruiser/Trans run like hell and try to position the sub into a strike position or take New Guinea as an irritant (but this is only a 1 IPC gain).  Going into the Med can be a good idea.

Taking out the E. Indies fleet buys India/US time, which you severely need to prevent the India crush.  Transports can’t be taken as fodder, but you can send Aussies to India and land UK2.  The Indian transport can be used to help fortify India/Egypt as required…you have options.  But like I said, this buys the US time to help support the Pac attack in KJF.  Japan will be out 54 IPCs (BB/CV/2FTR) right off the start, and that’s not counting what will have to go kill the remaining Brits.  If you buy land units for India and a FTR or two for UK, you can shuttle FTRs to India to make it a fortress.  But the UK needs to be saving money at the same time for a UK3/4 fleet drop of UK to take the heat off the Russians.

If you go Med, I would say get US/UK help in the Atlantic ASAP for KGF.  If you go E. Indies, then get US in Pac for KJF. Just don’t take Indian defenses lightly.

[miamiumike]

During the first two plays, it seemed obvious that UK should throw everything at the fleet off E. Indies - it is about a 60% win chance. However, both games ended in Allied losses - so I am left to wonder, maybe that isn’t the best use of the fleet after all.

The problem is that if it goes as expected, you might have one plane left - no ships to protect whatever transports you have out there. Maybe not a huge problem. If the battle goes against you though (as it did in one game), I think UK is in a lot of trouble.

What is difficult is making that first purchase for UK in India. If I knew my attack would work, buying a carrier and dd would make sense. You can land your surviving fighter on it, and if you position the Russian fighter, you can land it too - at least for one turn. Then, on turn 2, you could add to that fleet - I don’t think Japan could get through a 5-6 unit fleet AND have enough to take India as well? I do not have the numbers in front of me…

MM

[Mallery29]

If your UK FTR survives, send it to India…don’t buy a fleet that is destined to die.  Some combo of inf/art/tank/FTR in India is a great investment on UK1 and 2.  With reinforcements from Burma, Aus, Persia and possibly Syria depending on the Egypt conundrum, your UK1/2 buys should stack India (US FTR, possibly FTR from UK, UK bomber in Caucus for flex attacks East or West).  Japan will have a hard time competing with a Indian builds while trying to face the US fleet.

Have your Allies gone KJF or KGF?  If you can kill the 2FTR at E.Indies (even if your fleet is wiped out), the odds of saving India greatly increase.  You can instantly stalemate India, and begin saving cash on UK1/2/3 for fleet drop on UK3/4 in Atlantic.

I like the Med path too, would like to know how that goes for UK and the allies.

[adaptation]

@Hobbes:

@adaptation:

Sinking German BB TRN is a very solid move if you kept egypt. This pretty much secures Africa which is a major point.

Attacking the Japanese BB,CV,2FTR is NEVER a good move without the egypt fighter and even that isn’t that great

Sending both the australian fleet and indian fleet on the japanese fleet gives this:

2Cruiser,1FTR,1AC,1sub,2trans (12 in attack value) vs 1BB,1AC,2FTR(15 attack value).

While the 2 transport can take some damage, it is still not worth it.With the egypt fighter, its 15 vs 15(in rolling value), but at least you get to absorb two shots with your transports. However you leave egypt empty(and the german fleet intact).

Last time I checked the rules, transports are still the last unit removed during battles, both for the attacker and the defender…

So they are not part of combat at all - like in AA50?. I guess my OG Axis and Allies habits made me bypass these rules.

Forget my entire post then…

[Hobbes]

@miamiumike:

During the first two plays, it seemed obvious that UK should throw everything at the fleet off E. Indies - it is about a 60% win chance. However, both games ended in Allied losses - so I am left to wonder, maybe that isn’t the best use of the fleet after all.

The problem is that if it goes as expected, you might have one plane left - no ships to protect whatever transports you have out there. Maybe not a huge problem. If the battle goes against you though (as it did in one game), I think UK is in a lot of trouble.

To me 60% odds are on the border between a risk and a gamble. I’ve also manage to win with the Allies without attacking SZ37 so it’s more of a choice than a complete necessity for the Allies.

[Hobbes]

@adaptation:

So they are not part of combat at all - like in AA50?. I guess my OG Axis and Allies habits made me bypass these rules.

And on AA50 transports are defenseless too and are the last casualties to be removed… it was when that rule was introduced ;)

[AxisBrutality]

@miamiumike:

During the first two plays, it seemed obvious that UK should throw everything at the fleet off E. Indies - it is about a 60% win chance. However, both games ended in Allied losses - so I am left to wonder, maybe that isn’t the best use of the fleet after all.

The problem is that if it goes as expected, you might have one plane left - no ships to protect whatever transports you have out there. Maybe not a huge problem. If the battle goes against you though (as it did in one game), I think UK is in a lot of trouble.

What is difficult is making that first purchase for UK in India. If I knew my attack would work, buying a carrier and dd would make sense. You can land your surviving fighter on it, and if you position the Russian fighter, you can land it too - at least for one turn. Then, on turn 2, you could add to that fleet - I don’t think Japan could get through a 5-6 unit fleet AND have enough to take India as well? I do not have the numbers in front of me…

MM

That was extreme unluck. The calculator says 62,1% chance of winning for the UK. 32,7% for Japan. So UK should win 2 out of 3 times. So that should be solid choice.
The only other way is to run away with the UK fleet, or to merge it at SZ30, but still, Japan gets to strong, and they knock out everything in China on J1, can’t allow that wall to die there right away, and India will be massively under pressure. So I feel that E-Indies fleet has to go. UK also have an option on taking Borneo with 4 IPC while we are at it, but India loses 2 INF then.

[AxisBrutality]

@Mallery29:

If your UK FTR survives, send it to India…don’t buy a fleet that is destined to die.  Some combo of inf/art/tank/FTR in India is a great investment on UK1 and 2.  With reinforcements from Burma, Aus, Persia and possibly Syria depending on the Egypt conundrum, your UK1/2 buys should stack India (US FTR, possibly FTR from UK, UK bomber in Caucus for flex attacks East or West).  Japan will have a hard time competing with a Indian builds while trying to face the US fleet.

Have your Allies gone KJF or KGF?  If you can kill the 2FTR at E.Indies (even if your fleet is wiped out), the odds of saving India greatly increase.  You can instantly stalemate India, and begin saving cash on UK1/2/3 for fleet drop on UK3/4 in Atlantic.

I like the Med path too, would like to know how that goes for UK and the allies.

In theory at least, by saving Egypt with Russian FTR, puts pressure on Germany on Libya. Germany would have to have 6 units there or 4 units + 2 FTR in order to be safe from a counter attack from UK which can bring in 1 INF, 1 Art, 1 Tank, 1 Bomber, 2 FTRs. And then re-inforce Egypt with 1 INF from Syria + 1 INF from Iran which a Transport from India can bring over to Egypt right away.

You said you would take out U.S ships on G1. That also allows UK to dump 1 Tank in Morocco on UK1.

[Mallery29]

You said you would take out U.S ships on G1. That also allows UK to dump 1 Tank in Morocco on UK1.

a 3 vs 2?  I’ll take those odds…plus I get to sack the UK trans? cool.  Better than US dropping 4 guys in Morocco (I’d still get to sack the transports though…which is cool too.)

Axis don’t need Africa to win (it helps only if you don’t have to waste resources…that’s what Russian lands are for.

[AxisBrutality]

@Mallery29:

You said you would take out U.S ships on G1. That also allows UK to dump 1 Tank in Morocco on UK1.

a 3 vs 2? � I’ll take those odds…plus I get to sack the UK trans? cool. � Better than US dropping 4 guys in Morocco (I’d still get to sack the transports though…which is cool too.)

Axis don’t need Africa to win (it helps only if you don’t have to waste resources…that’s what Russian lands are for.

You said yourself that a UK DD can’t do much alone so why not use that Transport for something + UK DD can attack German Subs outside Eastern U.S. So UK DD does something, it can attack + UK Transport does something also, taking or attacking Morocco if you didn’t move your 1 German INF from there.  
Another option is to attack Norway if Germany has moved those 2 INF towards Finland. If not, then good for Russia.

[Mallery29]

why would you cripple Indian defenses to save Egypt?  You have to make up your mind on that…either Egypt gets the D, or India does, you can’t have it both ways.  By attacking Libya you:
1. Open yourself to Sealion
2. Open yourself to the India crush.

one of those scenarios is bad…having both happen is game over.  Go after Libya and you will set yourself back.  It’s good thinking, but I think Libya/Africa doesn’t have to be so much of a priority now with India having the IC from the start…on 42.1, yeah, Africa was important for the Allies…but the Pacific has so greatly changed that I think this is more balanced than 42.1, which is cool…but we’ll continue to see how that “balance” plays out over time…I just expect to see a hell of a lot more KJF.

[Mallery29]

You should use the DD to take down the remaing SS off of EUS (although my last game US won outright in the 2SS vs DD…that hurt me…lots of bad rolls for the Axis in that game).  The trans I would save…going for Norway will be a short lived negative investment for the UK…better to save the trans for later when you can drop a UK fleet.  Your forces will get killed in Norway, lose the transport, and will have not saved Russia from anything.

[AxisBrutality]

@Mallery29:

why would you cripple Indian defenses to save Egypt? � You have to make up your mind on that…either Egypt gets the D, or India does, you can’t have it both ways. � By attacking Libya you:
1. Open yourself to Sealion
2. Open yourself to the India crush.

one of those scenarios is bad…having both happen is game over. � Go after Libya and you will set yourself back. � It’s good thinking, but I think Libya/Africa doesn’t have to be so much of a priority now with India having the IC from the start…on 42.1, yeah, Africa was important for the Allies…but the Pacific has so greatly changed that I think this is more balanced than 42.1, which is cool…but we’ll continue to see how that “balance” plays out over time…I just expect to see a hell of a lot more KJF.

I don’t disagree, I like much more saving Egypt so that UK can reinforce India and destroy the E-Indies fleet of course. Now we are just discussing about Med-option, what can be done there. I would not take any units from India, just Iran INF + Syria to support Egypt.

I know this is radical, but imagine this. German player knows he can’t take Egypt on G1, since Russian FTR is there. Ok, so the German player puts German FTRs, where, most probably 50/50 Ukraine and France or most of it on France. Not many go to Libya anyway.

Now imagine this, UK player suddently pops up a UK IC on Egypt, lol, that would be fun:) + bying 2 Armor, 1 Art for India = 31 IPC. UK can have 3 INF, 1 Art, 1 Tank, 2 FTR defending that IC.  Would be fun to test that, but it only works if German player doesn’t know you plan something like this.

[AxisBrutality]

Now imagine this, UK player suddently pops up a UK IC on Egypt, lol, that would be fun:) + bying 2 Armor, 1 Art for India = 31 IPC. UK can have 3 INF, 1 Art, 1 Tank, 2 FTR defending that IC. � Would be fun to test that, but it only works if German player doesn’t know you plan something like this.

–----------------

Actually 3 FTR, forgot the Russian FTR. So 3 INF, 1 Art, 1 Tank, 3 FTR defending a possible UK IC. It is very difficult for Germany to position enough forces that can prevent a UK IC on Egypt. This is actually the only way for UK to produce units without having to save cash for several rounds. UK can on UK2 buy 2 Armor on Egypt so it’s a brutal force right there.