The Japan Playbook

[ItIsILeClerc]

Hey Cow,

since you are using tripleA anyway, why not add a tsvg-file of your J1/J2 playbook? Maybe even in your original post (if that’s even possible).

Regarding the J1/J2 openers:
I have played as allies against this several times now. My opponents were all strong enough so I can say with certainty that you should warn axis players of the +40/+20 IPCs the USA will have for a J1DOW or J2DOW respectively. This is another pitfall, in addition to the Yunnan-one you already mentioned.

Not digging too deeply into all the variable strategies but those extra IPCs for the USA are going to hurt the one the USA chooses to kill first.

[Cow]

Man I still have not got around to updating my j2 lol. Can someone do that for me lol. I tend to almost always do J1 dow unless Russia knee deep in china…. in which case I will setup for a J2 a certain way.

[IKE]

@Young:

I do the J1 every time, good chance of getting Island NO round 2, I build up to 4 factories on the mainland, bomb and convoy India til they can’t buy a single unit, and I push China back to their last 3 territories. Everything else after that is all progress for Japan.

Isn’t this a big blow to the Germans & Italians with USA in the war turn 1?  Curious what your buys are with this strategy. I assume you bring the entire IJN down to Philippines/Borneo?

[Young Grasshopper]

@IKE:

@Young:

I do the J1 every time, good chance of getting Island NO round 2, I build up to 4 factories on the mainland, bomb and convoy India til they can’t buy a single unit, and I push China back to their last 3 territories. Everything else after that is all progress for Japan.

Isn’t this a big blow to the Germans & Italians with USA in the war turn 1?  Curious what your buys are with this strategy. I assume you bring the entire IJN down to Philippines/Borneo?

Gaining early position in the south Pacific is much more important than keeping money out of America’s pockets. My J1 purchases are 2 transports and 1 minor factory, I keep 1 loaded carrier, 1 cruiser, 1 sub, 1 destroyer in sz#6 and 2 fighters on Tokyo to protect the new transports (maybe less if I put up a blocker) checkout the J1 strategies within this thread, they work quite well.

[Cow]

I just buy 3 transports with Japan personally. Next round I can slap down an airbase or a naval base or replace fighters if I have to attack China with all my air or something.

[Cow]

America does nothing to Germany and Italy anyway for the first 3 rounds.

Round 1 has nothing
Round 2 still has nothing
Round 3 moves out

Any difference?

[Cow]

USA gains 20 ipc woopy do that is the difference

However he loses more than 20 ipc of stuff round 1 to Japan. DD and Sub will only tilt 2 bship and a carrier at best (these days I only put 1 fighter 1 tactical on the fleet after combat and 2 fighter on borneo transport carrier, rest of air position for china).

[ItIsILeClerc]

On a J1, USA gains +40 compared to a J3.

• USA treasury if  J3DOW: T1=52 + T2=52 + T3=52…

• USA treasury if J1DOW: T1=52 + T2=72 + T3=72…

[Cow]

Yeah but Japan gains so much more than +40.

If America does not go full pacific early. Japan can easily win. India is super vulnerable.

J1 buy 3 transports only

J2 1 ic FIC, 3 fighters, secure shan state or yunnan make sure allies cannot take away your landing pad.

J3 move in position, buy 3 fighters on FIC.

J4 all in.

During J2 and J3 you are securing all the islands. Big money. J4 You take India. Big money (you may not make some island money because you need everything to take India with minimal losses).

J5 Reclaim islands position fleet accordingly prepare to take Hawaii or New South Wales.

J6 Move out

J7 attack for the win.
~
It is just that simple.

[Cow]

If you want to look at money gained for going to war early

DD sub kill for free = 14 ipc

fighter 2 inf at the cost of 2 inf and 1 arty = 6 ipc

borneo, FIC, Phil = 8 ipc

Usually you get Kwangtung barring snake eyes = 3 ipc
~

J2 you get 3 more islands = 11 ipc + NO. Sometimes you do malaya instead so 10 ipc

• 11 (islands previously taking)
  ~

That is more than 40. Also being able to deny money from a country that is far more important in the early game (UK Pacific) money from borneo and kwangtung, makes it so much more vulnerable. UK Pacific can only get help from Russia or Africa, both of which desperately need their air. ANZAC will most likely land 3 fighters on Java to try and help out, but it cannot do this if America is not full pacific or ANZAC becomes a juicy target itself.

[Cow]

Oh god do I hate people that wait until J3 to go to war. Usually I war them with the allies on UK2 just to make all the NO money and get away with whatever attacks I can. I only lose combat phase for USA.

~

I mean the only reason you would do a J3 DOW is if you are shuffling units off Japan into Siberia and buying bombers to bomb Russia and land in east poland so that Germany can easily G6 Russia.

You are basically giving up on Japan to put everything on winning in Europe.

So America just needs to dumptruck 20 units a round on spain to march over to France and Germany quick enough while UK and UKPacific hold Egypt. That is a great game.

[Zhukov44]

@ItIsILeClerc:

On a J1, USA gains +40 compared to a J3.

• USA treasury if  J3DOW: T1=52 + T2=52 + T3=52…

• USA treasury if J1DOW: T1=52 + T2=72 + T3=72…

Like Cow says, consider the ipc swings.

-territories
Borneo and Kwang==14 ipc swing.
Phi=4 ipc swing
Fico=2 ipc swing

-units killed on J1
units off phi=14 ipc swing
units on phi=10 ipc swing
bb kill=10-12 ipc swing

If you wait till J3 then UK Pacific gets an additional 4 ipc on UK1 and 7 ipc on UK2 (plus maybe the +5 NO if they declare UK2).  Anzac gets +8 (and maybe the +5).

All that aside, there are strategic reasons for J1 that go beyond the economic rationales.

[Cow]

“All that aside, there are strategic reasons for J1 that go beyond the economic rationales.”

^

The immediate pressure. Progress.

[ItIsILeClerc]

Wait… I thought the plan was to attack the USA near Hawai J1?
I can see the merits of J1 if focussing south (DEI + India), but not both east (Hawai) AND south at the same time!

Anyway, I am the last person on earth to not ‘look beyond economic rationales’.
I (try to) consider economic rationales, tempo, threat projection, ability to reinforce an area if a prolonged contest results (logistics, if you will), enemy counterattack possibilities, long term effects, the effects of my actions on the other, far away maps…etc.

If this J1 plot is SO overpowered it is a simple automatic win, it needs a fix, ofc. Talk to Larry about it (edit: or Krieghund). I’m curious what he says. Not that I think him the A&A-god of strategies and tactics or something, but I’m always curious about rationales behind a lot of things in A&A ;-)…
And I am (as always) reluctant to believe people just on their blue eyes. I need to see it first. I can tell you one thing for sure: first A&A thing I will study on next, is this. Just to see.

[Zhukov44]

It’s not like I have any evidence that J1 is better than J2….for all I know J2 actually is better.  All I can tell you is J1 is strong enough that I keep using it :) because hardly anyone seems to have an answer for it.

But yeah, I don’t attack Hawaii.  While tempting, that throws Japan out of position for too small a gain.

[Cow]

Yeah I do not attack Hawaii either, I just defend japan with 1 sub 2 destroyers and 3 fighters on Japan. Kamikaze rolls and such makes the 3 transport buy safe.

It is to take islands quicker. I generally prefer J1 over J2 DOW…. unless the allies put a serious bid that forces me to focus on China more.

[cb4]

@Cow:

Sino Russian opener. This is for players that like waiting till japan 3 to DOW on western allies, because if you are going to wait to dow on western allies until j3, you may as well clear out china and russia while you wait.
…

Oh yeah you don’t need to bring the xports up top if russia stacked 10+ units on amur, you just kill it and do the usual J2 DOW

In the game I’m playing now, on G1 I did the sea lion/feint opener. UK scrambled and lost all 3 fighters. So now I’m serious about sea lion. Meanwhile R1 ended with 16 inf in Amur and 2 in Siberia. It’s not that I “like waiting” to do a J3 DOW, but this situation seems ideal for not doing a J1 DOW to delay US.

I took Amur, dropped an inf and tank in Soviet Far East, and for non-combat move tried to set up for a J2 DOW based on your snippy.png pic.

This is the 2nd time I’ve played Japan so, if you happen to have some free time on your hands :wink: :wink:, I have two requests - would you please post:

• more detail in the Sino Russian opener, including when Russia stacks Amur with 10+ on R1?

• the “usual” setup for J2 DOW (cmon, here’s a reason to finally update that opener in the playbook :-D) Besides, I couldn’t find any J2 DOW setup via forum search.

THANKS!

[Zhukov44]

There is no “usual” J2 since what you do on J2 depends on what the Allies did.  The R1 Amur stack tends to change the game alot, especially when Japan chooses to attack it J1 as you did.

Whether or not you want to 1) Sea Lion and/or 2) declare on J2 depends on what the Allies did on UK1 and USA1.  There are many variables at play.  But in general, if USA is in position to potentially disrupt your Sea Lion then it might be worth it to wait till J3 (or J4) to declare.

[Cow]

If you attack Russian units on J1, you are going to war on J3. So on your J2 move your transports in position to take some territories for round 3.

Declare war on round 3. Round 2 you do not have transports in position to take territories. Round 3 you can start progressing on the islands and all (they may have declared war on you with anzac after UK put destroyers where your transports are preventing you from loading, so you may have to keep a few loaded on J2).

[Cow]

It has been a long time since anyone has stacked amur against me.

That is pretty much the only thing that can keep me from declaring war on Japan 1 against everyone, except neutrals.

Generally speaking I do not like to do siberia when Germany is doing sea lion. It is really bad. If I am doing siberia I want Russia dead on round 6. That is my game plan.

Think of it this way if Japan is not blowing up and pushing for a VC win then there is no pressure for the USA to do anything in the Pacific. So you give it time to liberate london and that makes no sense at all. It is a good move by the Russians to stack Amur if it believes you are doing sea lion or to make you go Russia instead of London.

~

I would much rather do a normal setup. You can still J1 DOW just make sure you have a big enough stack in Manchuria to defend.

In fact it is more optimal to get Japan going ASAP. The longer it takes for USA to liberate london…. the worse things look for him in the Pacific. Generally speaking if sea lion is successful, you are going to win in the Pacific.

~
I J1 DOW even when Germany goes sea lion. Great success. I believe in the J1 DOW to the fullest. I have never lost an axis game doing J1 dow in a league or tournament game. Sample size of roughly 20. Sea lion + J1 DOW = USA has huge problems.