The Japan Playbook

[Witt]

@Knp: what did you do with your 2 SZ6 Carriers on J1?

I wonder how much like suicide, attacking Pearl with 4 Air and a Sub and DD, really is?
Wake looks a safe place to park them. But I think it would then be necessary to send an AP to safeguard the Island too. (Seems a waste.)  That would mean only one AP attacking the Philippines with2 Air. Risky!  I was planning to send the third AP to Hong Kong.
My first reaction is always to avoid openly moving towards my greatest threat: the US.
I suppose it would place me far away from the money Islands too.
Isn’t planning war a headache!

[knp7765]

Hey Wittmann,
Let’s see, at first my 2 SZ 6 carriers went with the bulk of the fleet to the Carolines in that aborted attempt to take out ANZAC. Then one went back to stay in SZ 6 for most of this game while the other went south to help in taking the DEI, Malaya and Philippines. I actually lost the SZ 6 carrier in one of the big US naval attacks. One carrier helped to take India.
I have actually been very successful in using my other two carriers in foiling Allied plans – either in tempting Allied ships into a trap where I ended up smashing them OR in presenting a somewhat obvious looking trap so the Allies end up staying away and thus out of my business allowing me to carry out other plans.
So far, Japan and USA have rebuilt substantial fleets, although now Japan is actually making more than the US so they are in the lead for a change. The Axis is very much in the lead and I think the game will be over soon, although they have not gained the Victory Cities on either map yet – 7 in Europe and 5 in Pacific.  Allies are being stubborn.
While German navy is actually weaker than US navy, US is having trouble gaining any traction in Atlantic trying to match Japanese builds. Japan is threatening ANZAC again and in much better position this time. Germany is building up strong against Russia and the Soviets are losing ground, their counter-offensive having run out of steam. Italy is doing very well. They have all Africa and Middle East and are threatening Russia from the south. They finally erased all US presence in the Med and Africa and are even building warships to try and aid the German navy in the Atlantic.
Allies are playing like they are Axis – fighting to the bitter end. Stalin is in underground bunker “believing” that war is going good for Russia. He is close to giving his girlfriend a cyanide pill.

[Witt]

Allies are playing like they are Axis – fighting to the bitter end. Stalin is in underground bunker “believing” that war is going good for Russia. He is close to giving his girlfriend a cyanide pill.    I love history’s what ifs!

Thanks for the breakdown. I have practiced my anticipated moves on my wife(and no she wasn’t tied up, this time) and like how end of G1 looks.
Have devised a J1 too, but need to see how it would look a turn or two later.
I know victory is only necessary on one map and doing a J1 would bring the US crashing in on the Europe map earlier than usual for me, but I feel angered and am decided on that course.
Will make it a different game from the others we have played too.

[knp7765]

Well, the final result was indeed an Axis victory. It took 12 rounds, although the US conceded defeat at the beginning of their turn on round 12. They were the only Ally left except for 1 British Inf & artillery in Quebec, 1 Soviet sub in SZ 114 and 1 ANZAC Inf on New Zealand. China and France were both extinct.
The US had a powerful navy in SZ 101 and a smallish force in SZ 10 – 1 fully loaded carrier + 5 DD. They had 5 transports worth of men, art and tanks in E US, but could never outstretch the German navy to liberate London. Every time the US made a warship purchase, the Germans matched it so a stalemate developed.
Italy captured Stalingrad on round 11, which was the 8th VC on the Europe board.
Germany captured Moscow on round 12, which made 9 VCs on the Europe board.
Japan captured Sydney on round 12, which was VC #6 on the Pacific board.
By this time, Germany was at 102 IPCs, Japan roughly 112 IPCs and Italy had 67 IPCs. These are territory plus NO incomes. Just territories would be Germany = 69, Japan = 90 and Italy = 46. The US had 72 IPCs, but I’m sure that would be cut down quite a bit in another round or two since all Axis had nothing to do but go after the US. While the naval battles in SZ 101 and SZ 10 would have been huge, by this time the end result would have been the ultimate falling of the US. It might have taken a further 5-6 rounds, but the result would be doom for all freedom loving peoples. So I think our US player was right to concede.
I think my J1 attack made a lot of difference here, plus the G1 Barbarossa. I think it threw our Allied players off balance since Japan usually waits until J3 or J4. Also, our US player kind of fell into the mistake of trying to support action on both theaters. While she was able to set some Axis plans back here and there, it wasn’t enough to make really decisive blows on either side and in both cases, Japan and Germany were able to recover from the setbacks, whereas the Allies weren’t really able to recover from setbacks they experienced. The most dangerous one was Russia’s counter-attack of Barbarossa. They really built up a lot of steam but just didn’t quite get far enough before the Germans rebounded after taking London.
I have always thought the best Allied plans involve USA committing mostly to one side or the other, with just enough to keep the other side in check. Usually, a large US involvement in Europe can really put the hurt on Germany and Italy if they can keep just enough navy to harass Japan in the Pacific so they don’t grow too big. A large US involvement against Japan will usually, if done right, end up shrinking Japan to almost nothing, cornering them on Japan, then they can go over to invade Europe and stop Germany hopefully before Moscow falls.

[Cow]

I am playing Japan in garg’s tournament.

Just catching up on the comments in this thread and trying to absorb it.

[Cow]

bump.

Yeah I like leaving 1 guy on the islands when I can. Sometimes it is not feasible and needed for india.

[Young Grasshopper]

I’ve played the J1 strategy twice now with good results in the pacific, but still looking for the right compliment in Europe… playing axis again tomorrow, and all I need to know is, what’s the best direction for Germany… Sealion or Barbarossa?

[Kreuzfeld]

@knp7765:

I was wondering if anyone out there playing as Japan has gotten that five island NO for Japan – Midway, Wake, Guam, Gilberts and Solomons? And by getting that NO, I mean when it might actually make a difference to Japan’s income.
I have gotten it a few times, but that is usually not until Japan has all but won on the Pacific side. They will have taken Calcutta, China will be about wiped out, the Russians pushed back, Australia is being threatened and the US Navy hard pressed to stop more Japanese advances. Or if the US decided to go more for Europe, the Pacific fleet may be sunk by this time. So with Japan on top of the world in the Pacific and making 65-75 IPCs per round roughly at this time, what’s another $5 NO really mean to them? I don’t think I have ever accomplished that NO when Japan was still down around 35-45 IPCs per round.
If this is pretty much the experience of other Japan players, I have to ask this question:
What the heck is the meaning of this NO anyway?
It’s nearly impossible to get when Japan could really use an extra $5 per turn and equally as hard to keep for more than a round or two, unless the US and ANZAC are both just playing stupid. Getting it after Japan has crushed everything is meaningless. It’s like “Oh, another $5. Well, just throw it in the pile with the rest.”

I think those NOs are there for playing global domination. I got them in a global domination game where US ignored pacific, so japan took hawaii, and these islands the turn after, making japan go up an additional 11, and US down 6. it is a nice 17 IPC swing punishment for a US that is hoping to kill germany, then deal with japan, it gives japan some ability to be strong enough to fight the allies on after germany falls in a world domination game.

[Cow]

MMMM good question. I like carrier dd sub round 1 buy. my air on west germ. I always do sz 110 and 111 (I always send the bship into 110). Yugoslavia I usually hit and retreat into romania. Sometimes I take southern france round 1 (3 mech and hungary fighter… it is an easier grab than normandy). 106 usually 2 sub, sometimes I send just 1.

I just like the naval stuff because even if I end up going barb I like to guard my NO money.

G2 I throw down all the mech/armor stuff so I can rush toward russia and start taking some spots.
`

If you can make sea lion successful on germany 3, do it. Otherwise I like to push the russians back first. Sometimes I do a late sea lion and buy transports on Round 4 or 5 (move finland infantry if they are still up there back to norway, buy a bunch of transports, move armor back to west germany or germany… WA LA). Thing is UK1 is when he collects his +5 bonus and has all his spots (so it can pop out a bunch o guys). Sometimes after germany’s second round… uk will not get anything new for london and fly his stuff off… make less money because of italy and all that good stuff.

Basically you just do what makes sense for Germany.

[Guest]

@Young:

I’ve played the J1 strategy twice now with good results in the pacific, but still looking for the right compliment in Europe… playing axis again tomorrow, and all I need to know is, what’s the best direction for Germany… Sealion or Barbarossa?

If Japan declares war J1, then USA could build 4 bombers in Eastern USA with their new MAJOR IC, then send them to reinforce London USA2.  I’m not saying that’s what they will do or should do every game, but that’s one thing they could do.  If they do that, sealion is out for sure and if Germany does not build transports then the bombers are still very useful.  So if you DOW J1 you will want to count on Barbarossa so Germany might build either 10 infantry for a slow march, or 6 mech/1 armor for a fast run to Novgorod.  If you put everything available in Poland and build the tank/mechs, Russia can’t defend Novgorod from you G3, unless maybe the allies put 5 fighters (1 french) in Scotland then send them to Novgorod round 2.  But doing that means no Taranto raid.  You could build tanks/mechs on G2 too.

[scampb]

I just used the J1 attack for the first time and it turned out pretty good.  Japan was going to take India and then Germany had Russia at the start of the next round (played by someone else).  It was a nice effort on both our parts to keep our eyes on the prize and not be deterred by the Allies threats.

Russia was forced to try alternate strats and purchases some sea units incl. transports to drop some units into Germany.  Obviously a mistake as that money could have went to defend Russia.  However, it would have only been a matter of time before Russia fell anyway.  A major IC build by Germany (on G2) really helps with a quick push.  Does anyone else do that with Germany?

Also, the Americans made a big mistake by leaving sea units (incl. three loaded transports) two spaces off the coast of France.  He thought he would be able to reinforce with UK units which he did.  But instead of bringing ALL his UK units he used two Cruisers to do an amphibious on Norway.  He missed on his pot shots and the Norway attack was a big failure.  I don’t think he expected the Germans to come after the US stuff either now that it was reinforced with UK as Germany would have had to sac their planes by taking two hits on the carrier.  That battle went all Germany’s way with the carrier and both planes surviving.  If the UK had of reinforced the entire fleet with both Cruisers as well it may have been a different outcome.  Anyway, because of that mistake Germany had no immediate threat of a US landing in Normandy and was able to take an extra couple rounds for the Russia push.

On the Pacific side it played out very well for the Japanese.  With the mistake of overlooking an Anzac Cruiser that took out a Japanese destroyer blocker so the US could destroy three transports being the only real mistake by the Japanese the push into India was quite easy if only delayed by a couple rounds.

Allies condeded!

I think I like the J1 attack and will try it again in my next game.

[Bung]

Hey Cow,

Could you update your original post and remove the “/artillery” from the j1 dow j1 purchase. If you don’t capture Hunnan, you only collect 41, and you need 42 for the J2 buys you suggest.

Cheers,
Bung

[Cow]

Thank you bung.

[Cow]

Did more editing to my J1 DoW post. Some of it was convoluted, so I just made it simple and cut some stuff.

[SunTzu7]

@Cow:

airbase 2x minor factory 1 infantry or 1 airbase, 1 naval base, 1 minor factory (this means you are doing J3 calcutta. SHAN STATE or Yunnan hold is a must (this is where your air lands so you would have to kill everything around it). If USA is at Midway -1 MINOR FACTORY + 4 inf.  Kamikaze to prevent bombardments. Also you need all naval units cleared that could block your attack (position a fleet at Java or malaya and/or burma to prevent blockers if necessary). Put all available units in range of India in range. placement. airbase needs to go to french indo china or kwangsi.

Where would you suggest the airbase/ minor IC’s/Naval base go? I was thinking of trying to take Malaya J1 and putting a Minor IC there. Close to India and Chinese can’t get there. Already has a naval base as well.

[Cow]

yunnan fic

EDIT: Also seen Hunan used in more defensive situations against Russian advancements.

[Dark_Destroyer]

Last night I did a J1 Pearl Harbor, man… that was a terrible idea lol.  USA slammed me hard with it’s fleet and planes from mainland, wiped my SZ6 and Carolina fleets.  Had like 1 Carrier left with 1 plane.  :cry:

[Dark_Destroyer]

BTW Cow, you forgot to tally the USA +2 income because of Brazil.  :wink:

[JDOW]

I am quite sure he didn’t:) At least in several posts he mentioned it.
@cow: First of all, thanks a lot your taking the effort and posting strategy including complete moves. I really think that there are too few people here taking that burden and real discuss and present concrete strategies and not only abstract concepts.

I tried to read the entire thread, I observed a bunch of games of Tier 1 players, I made few private games myself. I would like to make some comments and ask some questions:

• I think that your DOW1 move is really good in general. IF you DOW1 I think it is a very logic and well thought through move. Good job! I also tried it out and won, however the opponents were not representative for solid Allied play.

BTW: I have seen seththenewb making a Pearl Harbour against Gamerman in a running game (http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31508.0)
I guess he will lose it but he had really bad dices in J1 and could not capture Yunnan and the +6 for ZH is a real headache for JP. So I would be interested how the game would have gone in case Yunnan would have been rolled based on low luck.
–> I am not sure if the Pearl Harbour is better but it seems valid to me

• I kind of disagree about your statement “The effect of J1DOW in Europe is just 23 extra IPCs thrown by US in the Atlantic”. I mean people do make bids of 10-12 because they think these IPCs are the gamechanger to equilize the game. they have more impact than the 23 US IPCs as the bid-IPS usually always make a significant impact in the first round but on the other hand it is 23 - twice the amount i the J1DOW case.
  Furthermore we all know that such IPCs will be paid off with kind of an interest. The consequences of J1DOW is:

• US could sustainably go into SZ91 with an invasion force US2

• US could deploy bombers in UK in US2
  This is creating threats which actually cost Germany money and slows them down. They will either invest in defense or they have to lose some air for clean ups which in addition prevents the air from doing other things. So especially in Europe I am convinced that US involved 1 round earlier can have a significant impact on the success rate of the Axis. How significant? I don’t know but I would say more than you state:)

• So far you insist (and nobody disagreed so far) that any DOW3/4 is just objectively bad. While I do not clearly disagree here I am still not sure if this must be the case.
  The objective disadvantage is that you allow UKPAC and ANZAC to collect more resources. But on the other side stand 20 IPCs less for US and still 10 bonus for JP and no NOs war related NOs for Anzac.
  Plus - and this is my point - JP also has the option to make optimized operations against ZH (sometimes wiping out TH inf with Air only) and allows you to prepare an even more powerful and unpredictable J3 DOW.

Allweeneedislove for example even sacrificed the +10 bonus in a current game by taking FIC for the sake of building an IC 1 round earlier.
Against gamerman he even waited till Round4. the consequence was the threat to drop 14 ground supported by 16-18 Air to India forcing gamerman to leave India and offer it for free J4 (The game btw looks still good for gamerman as he is very strong in Europe that game)

Plus: Germany has 1 more round they have not to deal with any US invasion.

However in a nutshell I just state:

• Minus 20 for US
• 1 Round of silence in the Atlantic
• Even more powerful and unpredictable J3/J4 DOW

I think especially in combination with a max speed Barbarossa a late Japan DOW can indeed make sense and is afaik also played successfully be very strong players.

BUT I also have to admit that I am not sure whether:

• …they won despite the late DOW and not because of it
• … J3/J4 DOW is maybe not a plan you start the game with but a deviation because of certain unpredictable opportunities which can arise during the game.

So does everybody agree that J3/J4 DOW is just bad or are there also players believing it is a viable and successful strategy?

Cheers,
Tobias

[ghr2]

I guess it really depends on how strong they of an India they want to deal with and if they want to pressure russia from the east.  It also depends on the japanese buys and naval positioning for the first 2-3 rounds.  If The US and anzac link up at queensland round 2 or 3, it becomes tricky for japan to keep the money islands secure, even more tricky to protect all of the transports.  The best way to do a J3 or J4, in my eyes, is to try to make it look like you can declare war at any time so the allies don’t prepare for it correctly.