AA guns on the front lines

[Guest]

LOL.

[Cow]

It is true though, when the newer version of +3 hit, Jen was raging about axis being underpowered.

Her axis still did not evolve. Nothing wrong with sea lion bluff and following through when it can work, but most of your games will be just that, a sea lion bluff, UK does not need to fly every available unit in like before, just needs to keep 4 fighters in it and that is it (since she does 109 instead 110, the medit fleet and that fleet can merge in 92 instead of sinking 97).

Calcutta, makes 21 income when japan waits for round 2 DOW. daz pretty good. You can do india round 3, but it forces japan to skip dutch islands to hold shan state now. Then when you do smack india, japan loses so much air.

If I am rushing for calcutta, I am going to do Japan 1 DOW. Take it down on round 4 (severely limit income to UK pac, prevent anzac fighters from flying in, and  you get a fully loaded 6 transport drop).
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this is why jen is getting screwed. she still does 109 over 110,  so italy has to deal with that much more stuff. sea lion on G3 won’t work.

Calcutta round 3 leads to more losses now and it delays dutch islands at the same time.

This is why Jen plays the older version instead of the newer one and always plays axis. In that version I usually took allies with +4 inf on uk.

[Jennifer]

@Cow:

cmd jen, your game play still has not evolved. you are still doing sea lion and calcutta round 3, which allies can counter through different means… which is why you complained about axis being too weak.

The map is so much better now, there is a good variety of things both the axis and allies can do.

In regards to the former:  I feel that any allied attempt to negate the fall of the United Kingdom leaves the Allies in very great disarray while setting up the attacks on both India and England do not harm the Axis in the least. (Yes, even the airbase is greatly appreciated for the Calcutta attack, as it gives you a lot more range with those fighters in the Pacific and in China.)

In regards to the latter: I have not really looked at the new map.  Has Larry made it official?  Has Larry even tested it?  My impression was Larry was washing his hands of the whole deal and was going to pretend he never made the 1940 game.

[Jennifer]

@Cow:

It is true though, when the newer version of +3 hit, Jen was raging about axis being underpowered.

You got the wrong version.  I said in +2 the Axis were incredibly under-powered and I still maintain that the Axis in 2nd version of Alpha need a 24 IPC bid to achieve parity.

Her axis still did not evolve. Nothing wrong with sea lion bluff and following through when it can work, but most of your games will be just that, a sea lion bluff, UK does not need to fly every available unit in like before, just needs to keep 4 fighters in it and that is it (since she does 109 instead 110, the medit fleet and that fleet can merge in 92 instead of sinking 97).

In most of my games I win with the Axis in version 3 of Alpha due to the fact that India and England will fall every round unless the allies ditch every other position on the board (save USA Coast) to stop it - in which case, the Axis can walk all over the map.

Calcutta, makes 21 income when japan waits for round 2 DOW. daz pretty good. You can do india round 3, but it forces japan to skip dutch islands to hold shan state now. Then when you do smack india, japan loses so much air.

IF grandma grew testicles, would she be grandpa?  I fail to see the relavance of if statements.  No, Japan does not have to skip anything, a NB and AB in Southern China gives Japan the option of the WHOLE DEI on round 3 AND landings in Australia, the AB gives plenty of cover fire.  India is cocooned out of the way, Australia’s castraded if they move their fighters over, and America’s a paper tiger since they had to dedicate everything to Japan (which means literally nothing to liberate England with, which still cannot be defended in Alpha 3.)

If I am rushing for calcutta, I am going to do Japan 1 DOW. Take it down on round 4 (severely limit income to UK pac, prevent anzac fighters from flying in, and  you get a fully loaded 6 transport drop).
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Thank you!  Now I can attack with impunity and America cannot do squat.  This is the route I LOVE to see the Allies take!  I salivate at the thought of the Allies cutting their own throats by DOWing Japan on round 1!!!  Oh hellz ya, you just KNOW my Japanese tanks are going to be rolling into the Caucasus on Round 8!

this is why jen is getting screwed. she still does 109 over 110,  so italy has to deal with that much more stuff. sea lion on G3 won’t work.

I dont need SZ 110.  I’d rather England have NO CHANCE to defend itself, than a slightly decent shot at it.  I have NEVER seen Sea Lion fail in Alpha 3 (pre-Krieghund of course) and at worst saw the Germans win with all but 2 planes and with only one armor left.  Even still, that game rocked since Calcutta also fell HARD leaving the Japanese and Germans without any England to worry about.

Calcutta round 3 leads to more losses now and it delays dutch islands at the same time.
If you land in Calcutta because the allies were smart enough not to take the bait, then yes, you have a 1 round delay on the DEI.  That’s okay, I have India which means there is no threat in the SE Asian area AND an NO.  A worthy trade to say the least.

This is why Jen plays the older version instead of the newer one and always plays axis. In that version I usually took allies with +4 inf on uk.
I play the older version because I dont have the newer version.  However, without England Crush, I don’t think there’s a chance for the Axis to win.  Perhaps Krieghund moved things in such a way as to even things out while still keeping England alive.  I don’t know.  However, I will adamantly state that it is clear, beyond any illusion of a doubt that England crush works everytime either by costing the allies position or by crushing England.

[Cow]

In most of my games I win with the Axis in version 3 of Alpha due to the fact that India and England will fall every round unless the allies ditch every other position on the board (save USA Coast) to stop it - in which case, the Axis can walk all over the map.

version 3 or 3.9? if you are playing 3.9 usa buys bombers and flies them into london just like in version 3, except those bombers make your odds at taking london pretty bad (not to mention only bombers and industrial bomb uk which makes 35 so you need to do more than 5 damage to kill an infantry).

So either you delay japan from war or you take uk. you can’t do both and if you do, you need luck to take UK and if you take uk you will only have a few air units and a tank left. Russia will be a huge problem and can even push to rome.
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anyway jen, play the newer version. The older version is irrelevant because when LH prints the new board and sells it, no one will play the older version of +3

in the older version the bombers in london just made your casualties into what it is now without usa bombers. Except in the older version russia got +6 for each german spot.

So russia could make a legit push and make lots of money. the rome push depended on your casualties in taking london.

However I don’t see any reason to play the older version of +3 so why bother talking about it? when everyone else is talking about 3.9? when people talk about +3 they are talking about 3.9 because the older version is posted on dead threads.

why you are not playing the newer version is beyond me. 1) there is OOB and everything inbetween to 3.9… picking one of the ones in the middle as the version you prefer, is like saying, I want to play a version that was not printed and will not be printed and is imbalanced. Playing OOB is understandable because it was printed. It’s like playing super old classic the very original one, we all know allies are the favorite to win that, but you are playing the board as it was printed at least.

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this is why I dislike you, because you are bad and you talk about irrelevant things. it is great that you always win as axis because taking UK and Calcutta was so easy, still got all your tanks and air, no problem.

The older version was not fun, because the same thing happened every game. Except for those rare dice games where france defends itself and germany gets diced in taking UK or russia all ins on berlin and dices you.

Yes we all know the only chance allies have in that game was russia pushing for rome or berlin. we get it.

[Cow]

this thread is about AA guns, it is obviously a 3.9 thread, the aa guns are cannon fodder.

[Guest]

Cow and Jenifer, you are both correct.

There are no changes to the map going from alpha 2 to alpha 3 (or the final tweak that some people call 3.9).  A few units were added to UK and some ships were moved around.  Everyone and his/her dog had input into the changes over at the Harris site (see “Sea lion in alpha 3” thread).  After every imaginable scenarios was looked at with tonnes of odds calculations and some very insightful and clever ideas, the consensus was that the best all-out sea lion G1 consists of basically what people like corriganbp had in mind originally:

Build carrier and 2 transports OR save $30
sink transports and convoy raid z106 and z109
sink battleship and cruisers in z110 (especially the french cruiser!)
Kill France, Normandy, Yugoslavia; activate Finland and Bulgaria

the best all-out London defense consists of:
do not scramble or intercept
build infantry
get your planes home
leave Italy alone
use the mech to activate Ireland as a possible landing spot for US airstrike on German fleet (carriers in z102; bombers in Eastern USA)

Given those two best case scenarios, London falls 2 out of every 3 tries.  Afterward, Russia cleans up in Eastern Europe but that only lasts a few rounds.

[Jennifer]

I am only looking at Larry’s Alpha 3 that existed before Krieghund moved the units around (which I believe is what you are calling 3.9)

I supposed I could get the new map for Abattlemap and look at it, but in Alpha 3 (the Alpha 3 Larry left us with when he said it was “final” but really wasnt final I guess) there was nothing England could do to stop Sea Lion.  The best odds I saw were like 30% allies (and USA was not in the war until AFTER it fell and even if she did have bombers, there was plenty you could do to stop them from hitting the channel - think Airbases) 70% axis.

From there, usually the allies got London back the same round Japan got the 6 VC it needed to win.  Anecdotal evidence of course, but that’s how it usually plays out in my games from everywhere. (here, home, other axis and allies sites, etc)

[Cow]

2 units were added to UK, the changes were made offiicial. +3 is 3.9. the older version is nullified. 3.9 will be the next printed release.

keep up with the times.

you don’t need a new battle map, print out the updated rules holy cow. you can’t comment unless you are talking about the same game.

aa guns are cannon fodder now. everyone gets more of them, which is why moving them around is much more important now.

[Guest]

Yeah before he moved things around it was basically impossible to stop sea lion.  Here is the final setup.  It seems very well balanced now.

AaA1940global_a3_FinalSetup.AAM

[Jennifer]

Nope, cant comment on a different game - well, not legitametly.

Okay, so more units for England and Germany’s barred from attacking with it’s fleet.  Did Germany get anything to make up for the fact it suddenly has a two front war again?  (And for the record, I’d still use Russian AA Guns on the front lines, even more so now!)

W/O Sea Lion, it’s a totally different game - much akin to how it was after it was determined how to stop Sea Lion in Alpha 2 (basically, Axis had no chance without Sea Lion - given the two players were equal in skill - yes it’s my opinion.)

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I also see that France is a much harder nut to crack with more British units in there again.  Might actually need airpower now - bummer, loved seeing that AA Gun die 100% of the time and listening to the bleating of stuck **** over how hard it was to win cause of that French gun…now it might actually do something! (Still, it’s French, how much damage can it really do?)

I dunno, first impression, I think it was overkill boosts to the allies in the Atlantic.  Might start bidding for an extra pair of submarines or 3 or 4 infantry to soak that new damage in France now - especially given the added difficulty of London.  Calcutta is still fair game, allies either give up the game and save it, or give up Calcutta and try to win the game.

[Guest]

Most people sacrifice the BB for z110.  France is still easy with just ground units; the brits you see used to be french - they changed uniforms to appease history buffs who wanted the BEF represented.  They also threw in extra AA in calcutta not that it makes much difference.

[seth4god]

Germany fights a 2 front war anyway . . .  whether or not the front line is the coast of europe or great britain. I think that the Brit units replaced some French units. You can hit Paris with every ground unit in range and have 9-10 units survive. Or you can split them up as you please between sfr, fra, and wfr. Most people hit both sz110/111 and either 91 and 106 or just 106 w/2ss. That and your air keeps any serious allied landings off of Germany’s doorstep for quite awhile. Think what 70-100ipcs worth of ground units will do against USSR now that you’re not buying all those transports and naval cover. I’ve become a fan of a G1 Barbarossa while others advocate a G2 Barbarossa. If done right, you can take USSR by turn 7 at the latest. Italy can cover your flank up till then.

[Gargantua]

also see that France is a much harder nut to crack with more British units in there again.

If you take the pain to review OOB, Alpha 1, Alpha 2, and Alpha 3.  You’ll see it’s actually one of the weakest setups.  Also Normandy is MUCH weaker aswell.

Also,  the British almost NEVER get to keep a fleet.  It’s not usually until rounds 4 or 5, that they actually start putting SHIPS back into the water.

No bid needed.

[Cow]

jen the game is much more balanced, most people have problems winning as allies.

What garg said is true. Though I find the axis to be favorable for low luck games, I win games giving allies a bid. :D

Dice games axis are still favorable to axis.I think much more compensation goes on for allies or it could just be the way things turn out.  When I play allies, there are a few places I have to attack like sz 97 where I can get completely screwed in 7 out of 100 games.

[Cow]

Also Jen, remember that long discussion we had about 5 bombers flying into UK and what kind of impact that might have?… well 5 aa guns that can be taken as casualties are in UK now, also a tank and infantry was added (if I recall). So now you take real casualties like some tanks and some air maybe, like omg real casualties.

You can still do little sea lion, except now japan might want to hold off on war to prevent 5 bombers from flying in. Imagine that, like omfg the allies can actually respond to something and make the axis react now, wow you mean we are playing a real game now? Yar.

[Jennifer]

The American bombers couldnt be in England anyway when Germany hit on Round 3, so I don’t get to get into an argument about them.  However, keep in mind I have not played this flavor (I call each version a flavor) of the game yet.

My guess is that I’d give up England now.  Rather make a push for Russia coupled with submarines/fighters (and tacs) to keep the sea clear long enough and hard enough that America couldnt afford a KJF campaign.  Only REAL chance, that I see with my limited view atm, is hitting Russia and hoping to pop it like a zit before America can use England as a staging ground.

The problem with Sea Lion was that it really did end the two front war for Germany.  Without England, there was no where for those transports to land troops - which is why it made a kick butt move in the first place.

As for the uniforms people need to lighten up.  It’s a GAME based on history.  I’ve always said that if you want to make the game historically accurate, you need to bar the axis from winning.  Maybe show a movie instead.

[Cow]

The American bombers couldnt be in England anyway when Germany hit on Round 3,

if Japan declares war on round 2 usa can fly bombers he bought on round 1 in. Typically UK buys all infantry and has to fly out his air units to sink italy… in which case you can do sea lion and take the united kingdom over, however if japan goes to war and usa flies in 5 bombers, the odds change dramatically.

So typically if you want to take the united kingdom over with germany, you have to delay japan from war on round 2.

[Jennifer]

I think you misunderstand the Japanese attack.  Japan declares war on Round 2 if and only if:

1)  No matter what happens, England falls
and
2)  India did something extremely stupid like stack in Burma (where they can be snuffed out by aircraft for minimal losses.)

Both have to happen, otherwise, the more traditional round 3 attack occurs - which is after London already fell.  At that time, all American bombers are effectively wasted for at least two rounds (from E. USA to somewhere in the Pacific and from there to attack Japan.)  Meanwhile, that’s a bloody aweful lot of IPC sent into bombers that now cannot perform their primary task.  Not to say the allies lose if America buys nothing but bombers on round 1, but it can’t help their cause if they become gelded.

Of course, I have not really LOOKED at the feasibility of things.  Without hitting all those cruisers that are generally dead, things might be different - for one, Italy’s position could be a lot weaker now, and if you go for the transports, you just don’t have the equipment to hit the cruisers as well (hence why SZ 110 was ignored previously, now it’s worse with even more there and less hitable).  And of course, if you go for SZ 110, you dont have the submarines necessary to soak hits should England scramble into SZ 109.

I would, however, probably still buy the transports as they allow me to move infantry from Berlin and Frankfurt directly into St. Petersburg without having to laboriously march there.  They also have the added benefit of making America buy those “just in case” bombers and easing tension on Japan (and even if they don’t, it’s probably not worth the effort to hit England anymore.  It was barely better than not doing it in Alpha 3, this wrinkle probably - and without calculator assumption here - tips the risk vs reward and global position towards the allies.)

However, whatever your goal, endeavor to conceal it from your enemy.  Hence the early transports instead of slowely building them might still be recommended.

[Cow]

india does not die round 3 if you do not DOW with japan on round 2.

if india does not stack burma india dies round 3, j2 you hold shan state for a landing spot, drop an airbase on kwangsi and a naval and blam 12 guys with all your air on india.

At least if uk stacks burma he dies killing air units. not to mention you still have to drop an air base or naval. to get enough for india.

Usually there is a burma stack, if it dies oh well, at least uk pac got a bunch of air. plus japan still has to skip dutch islands.

It really depends on how japan sets up what the allies do. fighters/tacticals on carrier means uk can put a bb below burma and block with a dd off malaya (so 3 of your air units will go to sink the BB rather than hit burma). Sometimes the carriers are empty and everything is in kwangsi. in which case I’d rather not stack burma since I am more likely to get 1 shotted instead of having a second round to fire at japanese air.

usually people have their carriers loaded and burma is a -17 TUV attack on burma on average. plus china gets to make his burma road money.
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Japan does not go to war on round 2, I don’t know how pacific is a problem for allies after that.  uk pac’s bank roll and anzac is generally too much. also the 18 russian inf comes in hot now (you don’t get 10 ipc anymore when they attack).

just play the game, stop talking about it.

I don’t believe in transports with america, except for pacific. Atlantic there is no reason to get transports, you just park your naval in sz 97 and convoy disrupt. get a couple subs for normandy and southern france.

USA is all about pacific, except when sea lion happens, because that means japan did not go to war round 2. no war round 2 screws japan up in so many ways.

Plus the starting usa pieces for america is plenty to work with.

Plus you don’t need lots of transports to take back uk. if you can kill 112 / hold 110, all you need is 1 guy on uk. you only need transports if germany is putting infantry on uk, which it can’t afford to do with russians pushing into europe.

Sea lion is still viable and doable, but pushing for russia is more optimal for various reason. I do sea lion if I see russia buying all inf and no mech/artillery, I won’t have to sweat russia so much, because those guys will not make it in time to push me and they lack attack.

Like in aa50 1941 you see germany buying naval, what do you do? buy tanks! Global it is the same thing except in global it is more artillery/mech instead of tanks.

people are still bad at global. soulfein is really good at global and he will also tell you, japan needs to go to war round 2 it is better to pass on sea lion and go barb.
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on a side note, people still do the sea lion fein, because it prevents uk from dropping a minor on egypt round 1. Also the shuffling of units to russia helps early on and you get enough use out of it to make up for its demise should usa get bombers to blast it. still prevents lots of players from flying their stuff out of UK to sink 97. It is still good.

Personally I prefer to sink 97 and buy bombers with usa and let the axis decide what they want to do. postpone war with japan and take uk or pass on uk and blow up with japan. Either outcome is good.

there is a reason why I don’t buy infantry with russia when i see sea lion on the first round.6 art rest mech. you follow through with sea lion, great i buy all mech 1 tank. you take london wee, i hold romania hit the other three spots got plenty of guys comin in hot. If you don’t have enough to kill me in yugoslavia i go there more guys comin in. I go northern italy usa flies in to defend me. next round BLAM italy is done. Russia can get crazy. Germany has to stop this and can’t afford to hold onto uk for very long.

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the game is much more balanced, people have lots of different strategies and there are lots of viable options. Right now people lean toward KJF with usa and strong mediterrean play with uk.

Like omg germany suffers real losses, which means russia is strong, germany has to actually spend money to kick em out of europe! OMFG IMBALANCED!

in fact the whole point of the changes that occurred was to prevent both uk and calcutta from dropping on round 3 every game, because that sets usa up to have to match japan income while trying to liberate uk, which is auto lose. Also people were taking uk without losing air units or the tanks they sent… that was BS, now germany suffers real losses and walks out with a tank and half his air maybe, none of that total BS that used to occur.