Research & Development Discussion - Delta+1

[special forces]

Haven’t really foillowed this topic, but if you use 2 x D6, and exclude double 1’s, then you have 10 different numbers you can throw (3 to 12)

(with some numbers that will happen more often then others)

[Jennifer]

@special:

Haven’t really foillowed this topic, but if you use 2 x D6, and exclude double 1’s, then you have 10 different numbers you can throw (3 to 12)

(with some numbers that will happen more often then others)

Fails to follow KISS.  Right?

Here’s my KISS test:  I ask my 9 year old son if he understands.  If he cannot understand it, a lot of people on the internet won’t either (there are some really stupid people.  As Carlin said: “Think of house stupid the average person is, then realize half of them are stupider than that!”)

[special forces]

@Cmdr:

@special:

Haven’t really foillowed this topic, but if you use 2 x D6, and exclude double 1’s, then you have 10 different numbers you can throw (3 to 12)

(with some numbers that will happen more often then others)

Fails to follow KISS.  Right?

Here’s my KISS test:  I ask my 9 year old son if he understands.  If he cannot understand it, a lot of people on the internet won’t either (there are some really stupid people.  As Carlin said: “Think of house stupid the average person is, then realize half of them are stupider than that!”)

Are the 10 desired techs seperable in 2 categories of 5? (like originally 6 air-naval, and 6 land) ?

If so, its’ simple: 1 =  throw again.

[Jennifer]

No.  If we got rid of the 4 lamo technologies for each nation we’d still have 12+ technologies.  I think the only one no one would want is the current incarnation of War Bonds and if we change it to best of 2d6 +2 that would change too.

[Guest]

@special:

Haven’t really foillowed this topic, but if you use 2 x D6, and exclude double 1’s, then you have 10 different numbers you can throw (3 to 12)

(with some numbers that will happen more often then others)

:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D  That is me laughing because now we have officially come full circle.  Zallomallo suggested this way back on page 1 of this thread, and it was and still is an excellent idea.  Some techs may be made more likely to be won than others.

And it does follows KISS: you roll 2 dice and you get whatever tech goes with the total.  I would even throw on one more twist: you get snake eyes, you get nothing sorry sucker.

EDIT:
Oh oh oh, and if you get double 6s you get the right to purchase two ATOMIC BOMBS. Each A-bomb costs 500IPCs and may not be built until round 22 (around summer 1945ish). Each A-bomb must be delivered by one strategic bomber and it automatically destroys ALL UNITS in the attacked territory.  If the territory is a capitol, that power must unconditionally surrender.

[Guest]

@Zallomallo:

Like:
2 - Awesome
3 - Fantastic
4 - Excellent
5 - Great
6 - Good
7 - Meh
8 - Good
9 - Great
10 - Excellent
11 - Fantastic
12- Awesome

If you don’t know, 2 dice has increased probability of inner numbers (7 is the highest).  This could make technology a little more predictable, or something.

yep. good idea!

[Young Grasshopper]

@Cmdr:

Jimmy,

That would be AWESOME!  Except, it’s not KISS, right?  :-P

Grasshopper,

I dont like choose at all.  
Why not?
I think it should really be 1 chart of 6,
Why?
which is the reason we got rid of two charts,
We did?

or maybe we follow Jimmy’s suggestion and come up with 9 or 10 different technologies and then decide which nations qualify so that all have 6 to choose from.  The other part of this that might be good is that we could say they get 2 each as “advantages” and choose them at the start of the game, as an optional rule - and you could CHOOSE to do that instead of having technology at all - or you could choose to do neither advantages or technologies (or objectives.  If things are going optional, objectives should be optional too.)

So, start all over because you had a thought or two this evening after dinner? What’s to say that after 20 pages of working out these new ideas, that you won’t spontaneously think of a whole new direction to go in, and than ask us to start over again?

[JimmyHat]

@Cmdr:

@special:

Haven’t really foillowed this topic, but if you use 2 x D6, and exclude double 1’s, then you have 10 different numbers you can throw (3 to 12)

(with some numbers that will happen more often then others)

Fails to follow KISS.  Right?

Here’s my KISS test:  I ask my 9 year old son if he understands.  If he cannot understand it, a lot of people on the internet won’t either (there are some really stupid people.  As Carlin said: “Think of house stupid the average person is, then realize half of them are stupider than that!”)

Haha.  Well your kid gets a healthy dose of you most of the time!  I’m not sure we can trust his opinion either!:)

Seriously though, I didn’t say replace tech with NA’s or make both mandatory.  But I do see the similarity with them.  Perhaps youre right and bringing in the nation specific techs is too much like NA’s and we should have both, not just 1.

[JimmyHat]

For rolling to see what tech you get, I also liked zalomalos idea, although if you get to re-roll when you roll the same number, then everyone is going to end up with ‘7’.  What if 7 is ‘reroll’ and then the others can be techs.  If you roll the same tech again then you’re screwed.

As for the ipc level needed to receive dice, I tend to feel Jenn’s list where 15 is 1, 65 is 2, 115 is 3 and so on.  That way if you’re in the bucket for ipcs you can’t tech.

I don’t like limits, whether its limiting someones ability to save ipcs or limit minor powers to less or less powerful techs.

[Jennifer]

@Young:

@Cmdr:

Jimmy,

That would be AWESOME!  Except, it’s not KISS, right?  :-P

Grasshopper,

I dont like choose at all.  
Why not?
Because Tech is a Crap Shoot.
I think it should really be 1 chart of 6,
Why?
Because one die has six sides.
which is the reason we got rid of two charts,
We did?
Yes, the whole idea was to make tech stronger and by combining the two charts - as we voted on already, and thus we are here - that is accomplished.  Go WAY back to the beginning.

or maybe we follow Jimmy’s suggestion and come up with 9 or 10 different technologies and then decide which nations qualify so that all have 6 to choose from.  The other part of this that might be good is that we could say they get 2 each as “advantages” and choose them at the start of the game, as an optional rule - and you could CHOOSE to do that instead of having technology at all - or you could choose to do neither advantages or technologies (or objectives.  If things are going optional, objectives should be optional too.)

So, start all over because you had a thought or two this evening after dinner? What’s to say that after 20 pages of working out these new ideas, that you won’t spontaneously think of a whole new direction to go in, and than ask us to start over again?

I did, combine your idea of targetted technologies with the national advantage idea, come up with a list of “technologies” a nation qualifies for and let them choose what they want.  Now minors get tech, majors get tech and people can just choose what they want.  No more worrying about what price dice rolls are, no more worrying about how the cash was accumulated to get free dice - just no more dice.  It’s as KISS (on the player’s side) as you can possibly get!

We could even tweak the technologies so that Germany’s Advanced Artillery is not the same as America’s Advanced Artillery.    Just make a list of 6 “techs” for each country and let them choose.  All we need to do then is figure out the technologies (which we now have to do again) and figure out how many each nation should get.  Keeping it as close to even between Axis countries and Allied countries would be best - and of course, your technology advantages would fail to work without your capitol or being at war - but those seem like minor issues compared to scrapping a technology system entirely, and then trying to figure out a way to make a technology fun for all nations without some loophole for a specific nation. (Just write the loophole out for that specific nation, or don’t give that nation the option of that specific technology - replace it with something else.)

[Jennifer]

@JimmyHat:

@Cmdr:

@special:

Haven’t really foillowed this topic, but if you use 2 x D6, and exclude double 1’s, then you have 10 different numbers you can throw (3 to 12)

(with some numbers that will happen more often then others)

Fails to follow KISS.  Right?

Here’s my KISS test:  I ask my 9 year old son if he understands.  If he cannot understand it, a lot of people on the internet won’t either (there are some really stupid people.  As Carlin said: “Think of house stupid the average person is, then realize half of them are stupider than that!”)

Haha.  Well your kid gets a healthy dose of you most of the time!  I’m not sure we can trust his opinion either!:)

Seriously though, I didn’t say replace tech with NA’s or make both mandatory.  But I do see the similarity with them.  Perhaps youre right and bringing in the nation specific techs is too much like NA’s and we should have both, not just 1.

As above, I think the best solution - right now, would be to assign a nation to each of us who are very active and have us come up with 6 advantages a nation might have over others.  Do away with technology altogether and get the diceyness out of it.  This allows:
1)  Historical Accuracy (at least a little more than now)
2)  Balanced “technologies” (in so much as we just make it so a technology that is over powered by this country is one they cannot have.)
3)  Unique technologies (why should America’s Artillery advancements look like Germany’s?  Did America have huge cannons built into the countryside!?!)
4)  Variety (fine, that’s also uniqueness - but it could also be technologies we as a team invent for someone - like nuclear weapons that do, for instance 4d6 dice hitting on a 5 or less, but cost 35 IPC per bomb or something, just off the top of my head - not necessarily a good idea!)
5)  Minors will get technologies, majors will get technologies, but no one will get all technologies.  Now we don’t have to worry about including minors in the technology game.
6)  Incomes no longer an issue - you don’t buy dice, you dont get free dice, you just pick a technology or two from your dedicated list and that’s that.
7)  We can carefully go in and make sure it’s “fair” for everyone.

I understand this is a paradigm shifting without a clutch - so to speak, and we should probably have a vote before this change could really take off (if it is to take off) but I think it might be better for the game and it is certainly a lot simpler if each nation chooses it’s technologies before starting.  Technologies won’t function without your capitol and won’t take effect until you are at war.

That would only leave the issue of impact on round 1.  As with nations going to war, we could use that rule to say technologies cannot be used until after round 3 (which is when, coincidentally, everyone is at war!)

[JimmyHat]

But those are NA’s right?  What about having a tech chart and an NA chart?  Then people could play with 1 or both or none.  I am all for that.

We’re so close, how about Jenn writes up(or points to) her proposal, we use that as a template and each make adjustments we feel are right.  If we see similarities then we know we got something.  We can also then look at the various ideas and pick the best.

[Young Grasshopper]

Early today I had set out to answer many of the issues in the R&D thread, with a selection of questions aimed at finding a consensus regarding many of the ideas here. We were making excellent progress, as 3 out of the 5 invested members had cast their votes on many of the little details for R&D, in the hopes of winning a small battle today.

Than something incredible happened. I’m not sure how or why, but Cmdr Jennifer has decided that she wants to scrap the 20+ pages in the R&D thread, and go in a completely different direction (you only need to read her posts on this page, to see just how different she wants it to be).

I don’t know about the rest of you, but…… I’m married, with a job, a house, and 5 pets. I host a minimum of 3 and a maximum of 5 A&A Global table top games per month, and hosting doesn’t just mean playing, it also means stocking the fridge cleaning the kitchen, bathroom, and most of all… setting up and breaking down each game board. My point is this …

When I started the Delta thread, I envisioned it being one of many side projects that would take up the rest of my available time. These included making a you-tube video to help newbies learn Alpha+3, adding cheat sheet charts to my scanned game board in photo shop, and building a new table (anyone who has seen pics of my current table in the variants forum, will understand the time required to build a better one).

Well Delta has not been as smooth has I originally thought, honestly, as you can see at the end of page one in the Delta thread, I was winging it… I didn’t know what would happen, but surely it wasn’t going to consume all the time I had reserved for other projects (and more). However, even though I was overwhelmed by the initial popularity of the new Delta project, I committed myself to the cause and I was determined to make it work. That is… until tonight.

Tonight I was told that my time is not valuable. That it’s OK to build a house and set it on fire, with the promise of building a better house, followed by the uncertainty that it too may meet the same fate (like a house of cards hit by the strong wind of someone’s spontaneous idea to instead build a pyramid). Yes… I like metaphors, and the biggest one that comes to my mind right now is, the feeling of a half dead mouse under the glare of a barn cat.

That said… I Young Grasshopper, 100% and officially transfer any, and all power that I may of had in this Delta project, over to Cmdr Jennifer (she obviously commands the time needed to see this set of house rules to its full completion). You can call me a quitter all you like, I really don’t care… I’m tiered, and I would rather not build another 20+ page thread that will never see the light of day.

Jen, I consider you a friend in these forums… please don’t confuse my words for anything other than passive frustration. Good Luck.

Now I’m going to take a day off to set up my camera to begin my you tube video .

[Jennifer]

@JimmyHat:

But those are NA’s right?  What about having a tech chart and an NA chart?  Then people could play with 1 or both or none.  I am all for that.

We’re so close, how about Jenn writes up(or points to) her proposal, we use that as a template and each make adjustments we feel are right.  If we see similarities then we know we got something.  We can also then look at the various ideas and pick the best.

That would be fine…the basic proposal, which was voted on to even start the discussion, should be the template in my opinion.  6 Technologies, we can change what the six are, or how they are worded, but 6 technologies was how the vote went and it’s much simpler than 10 technologies or 2 charts of 6 technologies.

I just figured, the original plan was going to hell anyway, we were essentially stripping it down to nothing and if we’re going to go that route, then just give everyone a technology or two and get rid of just about everyone’s complaints and be done with it.  This thread started on 21 November and we had a vote in the main Delta thread at least a week before that.  That’s about 3 weeks and I understand that’s a long time, but we should remain true to the original voted on premise, or stop pretending that votes in the main thread count.

Here is what I understood that was agreed upon in the main thread, original vote:
1)  There will be a free dice system that would allow almost every country to get at least 1 die free for the majority of the game.
2)  There will be a paid dice system that nations would be allowed to use, if they had the money, and if they had the desire that could boost the dice they get free.
3)  The two technology charts would be combined into one chart of six technologies in such a way that all technologies were of equivalent strength and to remove the “oh hell, I cannot even USE that technology” reaction by making each one have at least some aspect that all nations could use.

As long as those 3 points are covered, then we’re fine.  As soon as one of those three points are not covered anymore, then we’re disenfranchising the people who voted to have technology in Delta, in my opinion.  (My recommendationst to follow, it will start with the base rule and I will expound on each of the technologies and why they are there.)

[Jennifer]

@Cmdr:

Research and Develop New Technologies Phase

**A nation is permitted to conduct research and develop new weapons provided they are at war and control their own capitols.  China and France may never conduct research of develop weapons, under any circumstances.

The order of play is now:**

• Purchase New Units and Technology Dice Rolls

• Make all Combat Move Declarations

• Conduct Combat

• Perform all Non-Combat Movements

• Place New Units

• Determine Amount of Free Dice (by table located below)

• Roll all Free and Purchased Technology Development Dice simultaniously and determine technologies developed

• Collect Income

**Each nation may have free dice, purchased dice or both free and purchased dice given their position on the board and their willingness to purchase dice.  Free dice are determined by how much money you collected at the end of your previous turn.  Income that counts towards this tally includes:  The sum of all territory values you control + the sum of all national objectives you eanred + up to 5 IPC saved from last round.

Free dice are determined by the following chart:**

• $10 - 49 IPC = 1 Roll

• $50 - 99 IPC = 2 Rolls

• $100 - 149 IPC = 3 Rolls

• $150 - 199 IPC = 4 Rolls

• $200 - 249 IPC = 5 Rolls

• $250 + IPC = 6 Rolls

**Nations may purchase any number of extra dice at $10 IPC per die, however.  A roll of six on a six-sided die represents a successful breakthrough, all failures are lost and there are no “technology tokens.”  No nation may develop more than one weapon system per round regardless how many sixes are rolled on the die.

The following represents the new technology list, the previous lists are discarded.**

Research and Development Chart

Your artillery pieces now support up to two attacking infantry.  Each infantry paired with the artillery, and the artillery piece hits on a 2 or less in combat.

Mechanized Infantry may now blitz in combat, per armored unit rules, they may also be paired with an artillery to attack at 3 or less.

Your fighters attack at a 4 or less, defend at a 5 or less and intercept bombing raids at a 2 or less.

Your fighters and tactical bombers may now move 6 spaces (7 if paired with an airbase.)  Your strategic bombers may now move 8 spaces (9 if paired with an airbase).

Your strategic bombers may now drop up to two regular infantry units (defined as not mechanized infantry) provided the bomber has a legal landing zone after combat is finished.  Bombers may not drop infantry in non-combat movements and both the bomber and the infantry units must attack the same territory together.

Your bombers may now fire two dice, each one hits at a 4 or less.

Your industrial complexes are cheaper to build and repair twice as fast. Major complexes now cost 24 IPC and upgrading from a minor complex to a major complex now costs 12 IPC.  Standard placement restrictions apply.  Each IPC applied to damage on your complexes now repairs two damage markers.  This effect does not apply to Airbases and Naval Bases.

_You receive extra income due to sales of warbonds. Roll 2 six sided dice, take the die with the higher number, add two to the value and that is the amount collected in addition to any other source of income you are entitled to receive.   _5) Improved Naval Bases (Combine the following):

• Improved Warships
  ** Battleships now contain an Anti-Aircraft Gun.  For each defending battleship, you may now fire at up to 3 attacking aircraft during opening fire.
  ** Submarines now attack at 3 or less.
  ** Aircraft Carriers may now recover fighters when damaged.
  ** Cruisers now cost 9 IPC, move 3 spaces (regardless of if there is a naval base to launch from or not.)
  ** Destroyers may now shore bombard at 2 or less.
  ** Transports may now carry and two ground units, regardless of type.

6. Improved Airbases

• Radar Your land based anti-aircraft guns (including both moveable guns as well as guns affixed to facilities) now hit on a 2 or less in opening fire.
• Rockets Each of the airbases your nation controls may fire one rocket at an enemy facility or base within 4 spaces of the airbase that is firing the rocket.  Only one rocket per facility or base may be launched.

**Once you have achieved a scientific breakthrough you cannot receive it again.  Should you achieve another breakthrough that you already have earned, reroll your success until you achieve a new technology.

Nations that have all six technologies cannot roll more research dice - neither the free dice, nor the purchased dice.  ALL TECHNOLOGIES ARE APPLIED AT THE END OF YOUR TURN (emphasis added for those who did not find it before.)**

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The following are sanctioned optional rules.  These rules are optional, you do not have to incorporate them if you do not want too!

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Players are allowed to choose not to use Research and Development as an official house rule.

Players may also choose to use the optional rule of technology tokens - as per Anniversary rules.

Players may also choose to use the 4:2 rule for purchased dice per the AARe and AA50e rules.__

[Jennifer]

Disclaimer:

When creating this list I attempted to incorporate as many of the discussions as possible without making things either too weak or too strong.  Things I considered were:
A)  The prices of the units being adapted by the technology.
B)  What was Larry’s original rule for the technology?
C)  Was Larry’s original rule working, or was it too weak (as was the case much of the time.)
I then tried to combine technologies (as they were in the original vote with all the priveleges that were in the original vote) in such a way that the technologies could have enough power for a map of this scale.

Keep in mind, in Classic your Bomber could get from England to Yakut SSR in one turn.  Now the same bomber (called a Strategic Bomber), flying the exact same path can only get to Vologda or Urals before running out of fuel.  About 60-70% of where it could in classic.

[Jennifer]

Technology 1:  Improved Training and Technology

This technology includes both Improved Mechanized Infantry and Advanced Artillery.  In my experience with these two technologies, in the current rendition of the game and previous renditions of the game (when applicable) these are of similar power and scope.  Both technologies enhance a ground unit and a ground unit’s attacking power.  Of all the possible permutations between the two technology charts, these two seem the most plausible combination.

Why was the Mechanized Infantry being paired with an Artillery boosted from 2 to 3?  Partially to reward you for getting that artillery piece to the front lines and partialy because there is another technology below that allows you to bring artillery hitched to your mechanized units.  This would allow cheap reinforcements for your armored units (they still defend at 2, so no better defense than before) that nations like Russia, Japan, America, England and Germany can throw on the front lines.

Advanced Artillery Technology was not changed at all.  This is Larry’s rule and I felt it was a good one as is.

[Jennifer]

Technology 2:  Improved Aeronautics

This technology includes both Jet Fighters and Long Ranged Aircraft.  Both of these two technologies are hard hitting aircraft upgrades - combining this just plain made sense.  Of course, HB could have been here, but that felt more like a technology to pair with another, mentioned later.

Jet fighter technology causes your fighters to defend at a 5.  It did this before in Axis and Allies, I felt given the increase in finances, this would not cause a problem either.  It helps with fleet defense - which is important in the Pacific - and it basically helps with pushing the Russians back - important in Europe.  It also has the benefit of making Sea Lion just that little bit harder we all wanted without adding a single new unit to the board!  Attacking at 4 is Larry’s idea and I’m good with dropping it down to 3 given the increased defense.

LRA has not changed.  +2 range to Fighters, Tactical Bombers and Strategic Bombers.

[Jennifer]

Technology 3:  Improved Bomber Technology

This technology includes the two technologies that only effects bombers!  Both Paratroopers and Heavy Bombers are in this category.

Paratroopers were increased from 1 infantry to 2 infantry.  This makes sense because the board is so huge and there is so much money available, that this would boost would make the technology viable again.  The downside is that now you can use this to strike 1 infantry defending with more strength.  I think it’s worth the downside given that any country can get the technology with equal chance and that it effects everyone equally.

Heavy Bombers has not changed.

[Jennifer]

Technology 4: Improved Factories

This technology revolves around the creation of new units, both in cost and ability.

Improved Industrial Complexes had the one change of reducing the cost of Major Complexes from 30 IPC to 24 IPC.  In the grand scheme of things, exactly how often are nations building  major industrial nations? 
1)  Japan in Korea
2)  Germany in Romania or Norway
3)  Any nation recovering from losing their capitol.
The effect of this change is marginal, all the rest of the aspects of this technology came from Larry’s original rules.

War Bonds is the one technology universally looked down upon as both the most ridiculous technology (“What, I need a scientist to tell me I could use money from my citizens to help finance the war?”) and weakest (“Wow, I spent 30 IPC on technology and I rolled a 1 for my warbonds.”)  Add to that the fact Strategic Bombers get a +2 on SBR and we have a technology that could use a boost.  Taking the best of 2 dice and adding 2 IPC makes the Warbond equivalent to a strategic bombing run but just a bit stronger (since you have 2 chances to roll a higher number instead of 1 like with the bomber.)