Neutral Blocks Discussion - Delta+1

[Jennifer]

Jim,

Really, we cannot justify taking 1C away now that it is the clear winner.  So all we can really do is vote on adding too 1C or not adding anything to 1C.

That’s all I really want, personally.  I cannot speak for anyone else as to whether or not they think it’s important enough to add this modification to the rule or not.  I, personally, see no harm in allowing a vote to add a new condition to 1C or leave it off.  If there are enough people who want to add something, then it should be added, if not, then it should not be added.

There was a lot of talk about adding defensive firepower to neutrals.  JamesAmeman’s idea was a really good and well thought out idea on how to do that.

Obviously, 1C won, so 1C is in the ruleset for Delta +1.   That won’t change either way.

[JimmyHat]

@Cmdr:

There was a lot of talk about adding defensive firepower to neutrals.  JamesAmeman’s idea was a really good and well thought out idea on how to do that.

Ok, well its cool you like his idea.  I thought it was rather prohibitive because it did not specify neutral blocks, and therefore would punish an attack on neutrals even more than it is now by adding various units.

The only thing I did like about it was the availability to change the neutral force pool by deciding what units you wanted to add based on the incoming attack force.  However this was pointed out to be a failing because people could build aa guns if being attacked by air for example.

SO, lets see what we have here.  If we add James idea to Vances proposal we can see that SAmerica will probably never be attacked.  If US attacks Venezuela on US 4, then the SAmerican block would get what…20ipcs of units added?  24?  And so america will never attack SAmerica.

If German decides they want to invade neutrals, and head for Turkey G2 or G3, they are going to be facing 6 more ipcs of units to defend Turkey?  Scary.   At least UK gets an additional…6 ipcs of units to help defend from Arabia.

Oh and Sweden?  In James incantation (married with blocks) no one would be foolish enough to ever threaten it.

Its a bad plan.  It doesn’t go with the neutral blocks we have already ironed out, and its complicated.  Now you sell me on why its sooo hot.

[JimmyHat]

It is cool thought that at least people are realizing that neutrals need additional units, especially if segregated into neutral blocks.  The only issue people had with my proposal was that it might be too tempting for the Axis to hit Turkey, if that is the case then negating the Caucusus NO would fix that, although I don’t think that will be necessary.  The additional forces added and the fact that the remaining territories in the block immediately join the other side will do the trick.

Since nobody can tell me why my proposal is bad I’m going to stick to it.  1C is great and all but the 10 ipcs the US has to pay is silly because its singling out 1 nation over the others.  Also it doesn’t include even rudimetnary force pool additions which I feel are going to be the simplest and also easiest way to balance the blocks.

[special forces]

@JimmyHat:

It is cool thought that at least people are realizing that neutrals need additional units, especially if segregated into neutral blocks.  The only issue people had with my proposal was that it might be too tempting for the Axis to hit Turkey, if that is the case then negating the Caucusus NO would fix that, although I don’t think that will be necessary.  The additional forces added and the fact that the remaining territories in the block immediately join the other side will do the trick.

Since nobody can tell me why my proposal is bad I’m going to stick to it.  1C is great and all but the 10 ipcs the US has to pay is silly because its singling out 1 nation over the others.  Also it doesn’t include even rudimetnary force pool additions which I feel are going to be the simplest and also easiest way to balance the blocks.

Might have a Turkey fix for you…

I looked over the 1C, and, while not having read all pages in this topic (and still favoring the original non-block rules) i’d say:

1. Add Africa to the Arab block. (Makes Turkey a little bit more costly for Axis)

2. Join Spain, Sweden and Switzerland to 1 European block (Africa is not gonna stop USA from taking Spain), and add turkey to it too.

3. (is 1 + 2)
Add Turkey to the Arab block as well as to the Eureopean block.

Results:
Someone attacks Europe, the Europe block + Turkey turn against them.
Someone attacks an arab or african nation: arab/african block + Turkey turns against them.
Someone attacks Turkey: Both Europe + Arab/African blocks turn against them

(since Turkey is an important strategic place, having 2 blocks turned against would be fair)

Another general option could be to add 1 AA to EACH attacked neutral.

[special forces]

It’s late and i’m sleepy and slightly drunk, so forvive me if i am insane, but with this block:

2. Iberia & Africa (SPA, POR, ANG, MOZ, RDO, PRG, SIE, LIB)

Why wouldn’t i attack this as Allies? Even if they turn in active Axis right away, i see only Allied benefits in attacking them. Big scale attack on Spain (and perhaps also Portugal), the African countries have either no units or are easy to deal with (2 INF Angola, 2 INF Mozamb), given abit of planning and preparation.

[JimmyHat]

The allies wouldn’t attack spain unless they could keep Saf safe as well.  Also I added 1 inf to Liberia so that the allies have to worry about that as well.

If Turkey seems like a weak spot, how about amending the force pools for the other neutrals in its block?  We can add 1 art 1 ftr to Arabia for instance.  Or perhaps a dd?  That seems much easier than having territories that can influence mutliple blocks.

Also I agree with adding an aa gun to Turkey, I think I did that.

[special forces]

@JimmyHat:

The allies wouldn’t attack spain unless they could keep Saf safe as well.  Also I added 1 inf to Liberia so that the allies have to worry about that as well.

Okay, 1 INF to Liberia may be counter productive for Axis, as taking FWA from France makes it a potential +1 IPC for USA to come grab.
And yes, Allies need to check S.AF, but that is what i meant with some planning and preparation, should be not that difficult to deal with. Surely worth dealing with if you can have Spain for it.

Even risking S.AF in return for Spain would be ok for some players, i think… (and 4 INF can’t do that much in attack…)

If Turkey seems like a weak spot, how about amending the force pools for the other neutrals in its block?  We can add 1 art 1 ftr to Arabia for instance.  Or perhaps a dd?  That seems much easier than having territories that can influence mutliple blocks. 
Also I agree with adding an aa gun to Turkey, I think I did that.

Well, the good part of the original neutral rules were that things happened out of your reach, so while i am certainly not against adding an AA to turkey (and yeah maybe you already added an AA, i just checked the texts on page 11, or 10), there should be longer-distance consequences to taking Turkey as well. Things too far for a side to control (that is why i’d let Turkey overlap the neutral venndiagrams)

[JimmyHat]

@special:

@JimmyHat:

The allies wouldn’t attack spain unless they could keep Saf safe as well.  Also I added 1 inf to Liberia so that the allies have to worry about that as well.

Okay, 1 INF to Liberia may be counter productive for Axis, as taking FWA from France makes it a potential +1 IPC for USA to come grab.
And yes, Allies need to check S.AF, but that is what i meant with some planning and preparation, should be not that difficult to deal with. Surely worth dealing with if you can have Spain for it.

Even risking S.AF in return for Spain would be ok for some players, i think… (and 4 INF can’t do that much in attack…)

If Turkey seems like a weak spot, how about amending the force pools for the other neutrals in its block?  We can add 1 art 1 ftr to Arabia for instance.  Or perhaps a dd?  That seems much easier than having territories that can influence mutliple blocks. 
Also I agree with adding an aa gun to Turkey, I think I did that.

Well, the good part of the original neutral rules were that things happened out of your reach, so while i am certainly not against adding an AA to turkey (and yeah maybe you already added an AA, i just checked the texts on page 11, or 10), there should be longer-distance consequences to taking Turkey as well. Things too far for a side to control (that is why i’d let Turkey overlap the neutral venndiagrams)

good analysis.  I see you’re points about Liberia and Saf…

It would be just as easy though to add an art or perhaps tank to Mozambique/Angola to increase the cost of attack.  Also don’t forget that Iberia got defensively increased as well so it is not as easy for anyone to take.

You make a great point about FWA and the Liberian inf.  I think you broke it!:(  It defeats the purpose to place the inf there if it ends up benefiting the allies in the long run.  Perhaps a significant increase to Mozambique/angola would do the trick instead?  That or adding 1 dd 1 sub to Liberia instead.  Now an attack on Spain would require neutralizing those SAtantic raiders as well.

[special forces]

@JimmyHat:

good analysis.  I see you’re points about Liberia and Saf…

It would be just as easy though to add an art or perhaps tank to Mozambique/Angola to increase the cost of attack.  Also don’t forget that Iberia got defensively increased as well so it is not as easy for anyone to take.

yea, I didn’t take reinforcement changes into account (but that probably won’t stop USA, maybe delay it for a turn, or 2. they have the money to make it happen), but if only a few African countries are the price, Spain still looks mighty attractive to me from a US point of view. That’s why i think Spain needs to stay linked to Turkey (nasty if Axis have that shortcut + extra boost of troops) and Sweden.

You make a great point about FWA and the Liberian inf.  I think you broke it!:(

Sorry  :-D

It defeats the purpose to place the inf there if it ends up benefiting the allies in the long run.  Perhaps a significant increase to Mozambique/angola would do the trick instead?  That or adding 1 dd 1 sub to Liberia instead.  Now an attack on Spain would require neutralizing those SAtantic raiders as well.

satanic raiders? :)

Could work, will need some more beer to think about that, though …

[JimmyHat]

haha!

erp, SAtlantic!

hmmmm, Perhaps Switzerland should join Iberian block?  There is also an option to have US pay ipcs to violate neutrality, although I would rather not use that rule. US designs on Iberia is one of the things I am worried about, as well as all usage of Turkey.  I still think that by beefing up the defense we can make it hard for US.  Spain also had relatively modern weapons so increasing their force pool is historically accurate as well.  I would like to playtest this, anyone want to try and start a game this weekend?  Sunday works best for me but also Saturday around noon-4 CST.

[special forces]

@JimmyHat:

haha!

erp, SAtlantic!

hmmmm, Perhaps Switzerland should join Iberian block?

Certainly they should! Maybe even join every block. As the knights of neutrality! (yea, that made no sense :) )

There is also an option to have US pay ipcs to violate neutrality, although I would rather not use that rule. US designs on Iberia is one of the things I am worried about, as well as all usage of Turkey.  I still think that by beefing up the defense we can make it hard for US.  Spain also had relatively modern weapons so increasing their force pool is historically accurate as well.

I’m not sure about how to fix it, but i do think 6 INF for Spain is not nearly enough, considering its crucial strategic position in the game.

[Jennifer]

Confused, Jim.

Only the territory attacked gets extra units - and only if it is actually attacked…if it is annexed, you get nothing.  So why does, for instance, Argentina get an extra 20-24 units when Chile is attacked again?

[JimmyHat]

Your confused because we are no longer talking about James idea, due to the reasons I gave earlier.

[Jennifer]

@JimmyHat:

Your confused because we are no longer talking about James idea, due to the reasons I gave earlier.

Okay, not sure what your reasons were - I was dealing with some ugly business and really did not want to read through the whole page. (That makes me a bad person by my own definition, I know.)

Here’s what I was under the impression was on the table:

If you attack a true neutral or one that is pro-your enemy, then the closest enemy nation - that is at war, adds (territory-value)(number of rounds) worth of units to that specific territory or territories that are currently under attack.

That does not say anything about other nations in the block.  The other nations - per the voted on rule - become pro-the other side.  However, annexed territories do not get effected by that rule, so it really does not reward the other annexing nations…I thought your issue was that you thought America would suddenly get like 20 or 24 Infantry in Germany happened to attack Argentina…

---

If I am incorrect, please enlighten me as to what the issue is.  I might agree with you.  It could rip assunder the space time continuum and destroy all life as we know it - but I’m willing to take that risk!

[JimmyHat]

@JimmyHat:

@Cmdr:

There was a lot of talk about adding defensive firepower to neutrals.  JamesAmeman’s idea was a really good and well thought out idea on how to do that.

Ok, well its cool you like his idea.  I thought it was rather prohibitive because it did not specify neutral blocks, and therefore would punish an attack on neutrals even more than it is now by adding various units.

The only thing I did like about it was the availability to change the neutral force pool by deciding what units you wanted to add based on the incoming attack force.  However this was pointed out to be a failing because people could build aa guns if being attacked by air for example.

SO, lets see what we have here.  If we add James idea to Vances proposal we can see that SAmerica will probably never be attacked.  If US attacks Venezuela on US 4, then the SAmerican block would get what…20ipcs of units added?  24?  And so america will never attack SAmerica.

If German decides they want to invade neutrals, and head for Turkey G2 or G3, they are going to be facing 6 more ipcs of units to defend Turkey?  Scary.   At least UK gets an additional…6 ipcs of units to help defend from Arabia.

Oh and Sweden?  In James incantation (married with blocks) no one would be foolish enough to ever threaten it.

Its a bad plan.  It doesn’t go with the neutral blocks we have already ironed out, and its complicated.  Now you sell me on why its sooo hot.

here it is again why James idea doesn’t work.  I’ll break it down further.

US on Samerican block:
  US cannot declare war on these countries until it is at war, the Axis get to decide when US is at war.  Lets say the are at war US3.  That means if US intends to invade Samerica(the block) they will have to fight 6 ipcs X3(Samerica is worth 6 ipcs, over 3 rounds)  That means the Us needs to beat 6 additional infantry to the one’s already in the target zone.

Germany on Turkey:
  Germ declares war on Turkey G3 and hits it heavy.  Turkey is now reinforced with 12ipcs worth of additional units, lets say 1 aa gun 2 inf?  Either way it is nothing compared to the hurt Germany puts on Turkey in preperation for an attack on the Caucusus G4.

Russia on Sweden:
  If Russia ever got close to sweden it will be too late.  3ipcs over x rounds is going to make it impregnable.

The other option is by territory, in which case Turkey is now a breeze for Germany and SAmerica is a quagmire.  I didn’t even get to Iberia and the fact that after Turn 5 or 6 it is undefeatable.

[Young Grasshopper]

Jimmy,

You are extremely invested in this rule and your opinion in this discussion is valuable, using all the info in this thread and without thinking about what others want, please tell me how you envision neutral blocks. forget everyone else a please write a neutral blocks rule that you think is good. use as many different ideas that you have heard here, just tell me your favorite neutral blocks suggestions…… no explanation required… we will use what you write as a framework for future discussion, so try to be a specific as possible. Thank you.

[JimmyHat]

Ok, haven’t gotten input from Mantlefan yet but I hear he’s banned again so not sure when/if he’ll be able to contribute.

I have an idea of where it will go but Special forces keeps poking holes in it!  Darn him!

[Young Grasshopper]

@JimmyHat:

Ok, haven’t gotten input from Mantlefan yet but I hear he’s banned again so not sure when/if he’ll be able to contribute.

I have an idea of where it will go but Special forces keeps poking holes in it!  Darn him!

I’m not looking for anyones input but yours, and don’t worry about perfection, just lay it on us.

[Jennifer]

Wait, we’re locked into 1C still, right?  It won the vote and I believe that was determined as done and over.  We’re just talking about added units and whether or not there should be any and if so, how those added units are, right?

Jim, you raise a good point on Sweeden.

However, keep in mind that America’s not going to be attacking S. America.  Why?  1)  They lose their 10 IPC sovereignty NO negating any benefit of attacking S. American territories income wise.  2)  They allow the Axis to land in S. America and annex territories.  3)  There is no utility for America by taking Chile, Venezuela or Argentina (and defeinitly not the no ipc, no army territories!)

Lastly, Germany can already attack Turkey and crush the 8 Infantry there.  Why is adding 2 Infantry and an AA Gun to Turkey going to make that bad - is it not enough?

[Young Grasshopper]

@Cmdr:

Wait, we’re locked into 1C still, right?  It won the vote and I believe that was determined as done and over.  We’re just talking about added units and whether or not there should be any and if so, how those added units are, right?

Jim, you raise a good point on Sweeden.

However, keep in mind that America’s not going to be attacking S. America.  Why?  1)  They lose their 10 IPC sovereignty NO negating any benefit of attacking S. American territories income wise.  2)  They allow the Axis to land in S. America and annex territories.  3)  There is no utility for America by taking Chile, Venezuela or Argentina (and defeinitly not the no ipc, no army territories!)

Lastly, Germany can already attack Turkey and crush the 8 Infantry there.  Why is adding 2 Infantry and an AA Gun to Turkey going to make that bad - is it not enough?

I just want to know jimmyhats opinion, we can talk about it afterwards.