Neutral Blocks Discussion - Delta+1

[Robbernosky]

I think it’s weird that the Axis and Allies can just attack neutrals leaning the other direction, it seems like other people would notice and care.

[Guest]

Attention everyone.

I have made up 10 variations of the Neutral Blocks rule for you to consider.  These were made by blending the most recent proposals posted by Wheatbeer and Young Grasshopper, plus a few other ideas I found scattered throughout this discussion.  I couldn’t include everything (e.g. neutral partisans), and I have left out any discussion of setup changes, including neutral air and naval units.  Setup changes are an issue separate from the rule and that quagmire should only be entered after playtesting the rule you agree to accept.

The first five versions (1a thru 1e) have any attack on a strict neutral causing other members of the block to join a power on the opposing side.  The second five versions (2a thru 2e) have any attack on a strict neutral causing other members of the block to become pro-axis or pro-allied neutral.  When deciding which version to endorse, I recommend that you first decide which of those courses you think is best and then look more closely at group 1(a thru e) or group 2(a thru e).

Items b thru e are the same in group 1 and group 2.  I started by ordering them in a way that I thought made sense and then removing e, d, c, and b to result in the  versions you see below.  If anyone would like to suggest another version (e.g. maybe you like version 2e, but you want point c removed), please do so and number it starting with f (i.e. 1f or 2f).  That will keep things orderly for final voting.

Without further ado, here they are:

NEUTRAL BLOCKS - Version 1a.

A. An attack by any Axis power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately joining whichever Allied power the Allied side chooses.  An attack by any Allied power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately joining whichever Axis power the Axis side chooses.
 An attack by an Axis power on any strict neutral territory while the USA and/or USSR are not yet at war will result in USA and USSR immediately joining the Allies.
  So long as Sweden is not controlled by the Allies Germany collects the 5 ipc NO for Swedish iron.  If Russia controls both Finland and Norway then Sweden will join the Axis at the beginning of Germany’s next turn.
 The Neutral Blocks are:

1. South America (VEN, COL, ECU, PER, BOL, PAR, CHI, ARG, URG)
2. Iberia & Africa (SPA, POR, ANG, MOZ, RDO, PRG, SIE, LIB)
3. Islamic (TURK, SAUD, AFG)

NEUTRAL BLOCKS - Version 1b.

A. An attack by any Axis power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately joining whichever Allied power the Allied side chooses.  An attack by any Allied power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately joining whichever Axis power the Axis side chooses.
  An attack by an Axis power on any strict neutral territory while the USA and/or USSR are not yet at war will result in USA and USSR immediately joining the Allies.
  So long as Sweden is not controlled by the Allies Germany collects the 5 ipc NO for Swedish iron.  If Russia controls both Finland and Norway then Sweden will join the Axis at the beginning of Germany’s next turn.
  The Neutral Blocks are:

1. South America (VEN, COL, ECU, PER, BOL, PAR, CHI, ARG, URG)
2. Iberia & Africa (SPA, POR, ANG, MOZ, RDO, PRG, SIE, LIB)
3. Islamic (TURK, SAUD, AFG)

B. If the United States attacks any strict neutral territory, trade sanctions are imposed by the League of Nations for this reckless act of aggression against a neutral nation. USA  may never again collect the 10IPC national sovereignty NO, even if it controls Western US, Central US and Eastern US.

NEUTRAL BLOCKS - Version 1c.

A. An attack by any Axis power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately joining whichever Allied power the Allied side chooses.  An attack by any Allied power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately joining whichever Axis power the Axis side chooses.
  An attack by an Axis power on any strict neutral territory while the USA and/or USSR are not yet at war will result in USA and USSR immediately joining the Allies.
  So long as Sweden is not controlled by the Allies Germany collects the 5 ipc NO for Swedish iron.  If Russia controls both Finland and Norway then Sweden will join the Axis at the beginning of Germany’s next turn.
  The Neutral Blocks are:

1. South America (VEN, COL, ECU, PER, BOL, PAR, CHI, ARG, URG)
2. Iberia & Africa (SPA, POR, ANG, MOZ, RDO, PRG, SIE, LIB)
3. Islamic (TURK, SAUD, AFG)

B. If the United States attacks any strict neutral territory, trade sanctions are imposed by the League of Nations for this reckless act of aggression against a neutral nation. USA  may never again collect the 10IPC national sovereignty NO, even if it controls Western US, Central US and Eastern US.

C. If an axis power attacks Turkey when it is a strict neutral and Caucasus is not axis controlled, the Soviet Union preemptively destroys oil production facilities in Azerbaijan as part of its scorched earth policy. Germany may never again collect the 5IPC Caucasus oil NO, even if it controls Caucasus.

NEUTRAL BLOCKS - Version 1d.

A. An attack by any Axis power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately joining whichever Allied power the Allied side chooses.  An attack by any Allied power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately joining whichever Axis power the Axis side chooses.
  An attack by an Axis power on any strict neutral territory while the USA and/or USSR are not yet at war will result in USA and USSR immediately joining the Allies.
  So long as Sweden is not controlled by the Allies Germany collects the 5 ipc NO for Swedish iron.  If Russia controls both Finland and Norway then Sweden will join the Axis at the beginning of Germany’s next turn.
  The Neutral Blocks are:

1. South America (VEN, COL, ECU, PER, BOL, PAR, CHI, ARG, URG)
2. Iberia & Africa (SPA, POR, ANG, MOZ, RDO, PRG, SIE, LIB)
3. Islamic (TURK, SAUD, AFG)

B. If the United States attacks any strict neutral territory, trade sanctions are imposed by the League of Nations for this reckless act of aggression against a neutral nation. USA  may never again collect the 10IPC national sovereignty NO, even if it controls Western US, Central US and Eastern US.

C. If an axis power attacks Turkey when it is a strict neutral and Caucasus is not axis controlled, the Soviet Union preemptively destroys oil production facilities in Azerbaijan as part of its scorched earth policy. Germany may never again collect the 5IPC Caucasus oil NO, even if it controls Caucasus.

D. If a single power controls all of the territories  within a block containing more than one territory, that power will receive a 3IPC National Objective bonus at the  Collect Income phase of every turn that the entire block is controlled by that power.

NEUTRAL BLOCKS - Version 1e.

A. An attack by any Axis power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately joining whichever Allied power the Allied side chooses.  An attack by any Allied power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately joining whichever Axis power the Axis side chooses.
  An attack by an Axis power on any strict neutral territory while the USA and/or USSR are not yet at war will result in USA and USSR immediately joining the Allies.
  So long as Sweden is not controlled by the Allies Germany collects the 5 ipc NO for Swedish iron.  If Russia controls both Finland and Norway then Sweden will join the Axis at the beginning of Germany’s next turn.
  The Neutral Blocks are:

1. South America (VEN, COL, ECU, PER, BOL, PAR, CHI, ARG, URG)
2. Iberia & Africa (SPA, POR, ANG, MOZ, RDO, PRG, SIE, LIB)
3. Islamic (TURK, SAUD, AFG)

B. If the United States attacks any strict neutral territory, trade sanctions are imposed by the League of Nations for this reckless act of aggression against a neutral nation. USA  may never again collect the 10IPC national sovereignty NO, even if it controls Western US, Central US and Eastern US.

C. If an axis power attacks Turkey when it is a strict neutral and Caucasus is not axis controlled, the Soviet Union preemptively destroys oil production facilities in Azerbaijan as part of its scorched earth policy. Germany may never again collect the 5IPC Caucasus oil NO, even if it controls Caucasus.

D. If a single power controls all of the territories  within a block containing more than one territory, that power will receive a 3IPC National Objective bonus at the  Collect Income phase of every turn that the entire block is controlled by that power.

E. Once a power attacks any true neutral territory, they will immediately receive cash in the amount of the territories IPC value. This is a one time payout, and the income tracking chart does not get adjusted. If an opposite side takes control of the true neutral away from the other side, they will also receive cash in the amount of the territories IPC value. This is also a one time payout, and the territory can keep paying out if the other side (not an ally) continues to reclaim the true neutral.

NEUTRAL BLOCKS - Version 2a.

A. An attack by any Axis power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately becoming pro-allies neutral.  An attack by any Allied power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately becoming pro-axis neutral.
  An attack by an Axis power on any strict neutral territory while the USA and/or USSR are not yet at war will result in USA and USSR immediately joining the Allies.
  So long as Sweden is not controlled by the Allies Germany collects the 5 ipc NO for Swedish iron.  If Russia controls both Finland and Norway then Sweden will join the Axis at the beginning of Germany’s next turn.
  The Neutral Blocks are:

1. South America (VEN, COL, ECU, PER, BOL, PAR, CHI, ARG, URG)
2. Iberia & Africa (SPA, POR, ANG, MOZ, RDO, PRG, SIE, LIB)
3. Islamic (TURK, SAUD, AFG)

NEUTRAL BLOCKS - Version 2b.

A. An attack by any Axis power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately becoming pro-allies neutral.  An attack by any Allied power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately becoming pro-axis neutral.
  An attack by an Axis power on any strict neutral territory while the USA and/or USSR are not yet at war will result in USA and USSR immediately joining the Allies.
  So long as Sweden is not controlled by the Allies Germany collects the 5 ipc NO for Swedish iron.  If Russia controls both Finland and Norway then Sweden will join the Axis at the beginning of Germany’s next turn.
  The Neutral Blocks are:

1. South America (VEN, COL, ECU, PER, BOL, PAR, CHI, ARG, URG)
2. Iberia & Africa (SPA, POR, ANG, MOZ, RDO, PRG, SIE, LIB)
3. Islamic (TURK, SAUD, AFG)

B. If the United States attacks any strict neutral territory, trade sanctions are imposed by the League of Nations for this reckless act of aggression against a neutral nation. USA  may never again collect the 10IPC national sovereignty NO, even if it controls Western US, Central US and Eastern US.

NEUTRAL BLOCKS - Version 2c.

A. An attack by any Axis power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately becoming pro-allies neutral.  An attack by any Allied power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately becoming pro-axis neutral.
  An attack by an Axis power on any strict neutral territory while the USA and/or USSR are not yet at war will result in USA and USSR immediately joining the Allies.
  So long as Sweden is not controlled by the Allies Germany collects the 5 ipc NO for Swedish iron.  If Russia controls both Finland and Norway then Sweden will join the Axis at the beginning of Germany’s next turn.
  The Neutral Blocks are:

1. South America (VEN, COL, ECU, PER, BOL, PAR, CHI, ARG, URG)
2. Iberia & Africa (SPA, POR, ANG, MOZ, RDO, PRG, SIE, LIB)
3. Islamic (TURK, SAUD, AFG)

B. If the United States attacks any strict neutral territory, trade sanctions are imposed by the League of Nations for this reckless act of aggression against a neutral nation. USA  may never again collect the 10IPC national sovereignty NO, even if it controls Western US, Central US and Eastern US.

C. If an axis power attacks Turkey when it is a strict neutral and Caucasus is not axis controlled, the Soviet Union preemptively destroys oil production facilities in Azerbaijan as part of its scorched earth policy. Germany may never again collect the 5IPC Caucasus oil NO, even if it controls Caucasus.

NEUTRAL BLOCKS - Version 2d.

A. An attack by any Axis power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately becoming pro-allies neutral.  An attack by any Allied power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately becoming pro-axis neutral.
  An attack by an Axis power on any strict neutral territory while the USA and/or USSR are not yet at war will result in USA and USSR immediately joining the Allies.
  So long as Sweden is not controlled by the Allies Germany collects the 5 ipc NO for Swedish iron.  If Russia controls both Finland and Norway then Sweden will join the Axis at the beginning of Germany’s next turn.
  The Neutral Blocks are:

1. South America (VEN, COL, ECU, PER, BOL, PAR, CHI, ARG, URG)
2. Iberia & Africa (SPA, POR, ANG, MOZ, RDO, PRG, SIE, LIB)
3. Islamic (TURK, SAUD, AFG)

B. If the United States attacks any strict neutral territory, trade sanctions are imposed by the League of Nations for this reckless act of aggression against a neutral nation. USA  may never again collect the 10IPC national sovereignty NO, even if it controls Western US, Central US and Eastern US.

C. If an axis power attacks Turkey when it is a strict neutral and Caucasus is not axis controlled, the Soviet Union preemptively destroys oil production facilities in Azerbaijan as part of its scorched earth policy. Germany may never again collect the 5IPC Caucasus oil NO, even if it controls Caucasus.

D. If a single power controls all of the territories  within a block containing more than one territory, that power will receive a 3IPC National Objective bonus at the  Collect Income phase of every turn that the entire block is controlled by that power.

NEUTRAL BLOCKS - Version 2e.

A. An attack by any Axis power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately becoming pro-allies neutral.  An attack by any Allied power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately becoming pro-axis neutral.
  An attack by an Axis power on any strict neutral territory while the USA and/or USSR are not yet at war will result in USA and USSR immediately joining the Allies.
  So long as Sweden is not controlled by the Allies Germany collects the 5 ipc NO for Swedish iron.  If Russia controls both Finland and Norway then Sweden will join the Axis at the beginning of Germany’s next turn.
  The Neutral Blocks are:

1. South America (VEN, COL, ECU, PER, BOL, PAR, CHI, ARG, URG)
2. Iberia & Africa (SPA, POR, ANG, MOZ, RDO, PRG, SIE, LIB)
3. Islamic (TURK, SAUD, AFG)

B. If the United States attacks any strict neutral territory, trade sanctions are imposed by the League of Nations for this reckless act of aggression against a neutral nation. USA  may never again collect the 10IPC national sovereignty NO, even if it controls Western US, Central US and Eastern US.

C. If an axis power attacks Turkey when it is a strict neutral and Caucasus is not axis controlled, the Soviet Union preemptively destroys oil production facilities in Azerbaijan as part of its scorched earth policy. Germany may never again collect the 5IPC Caucasus oil NO, even if it controls Caucasus.

D. If a single power controls all of the territories  within a block containing more than one territory, that power will receive a 3IPC National Objective bonus at the  Collect Income phase of every turn that the entire block is controlled by that power.

E. Once a power attacks any true neutral territory, they will immediately receive cash in the amount of the territories IPC value. This is a one time payout, and the income tracking chart does not get adjusted. If an opposite side takes control of the true neutral away from the other side, they will also receive cash in the amount of the territories IPC value. This is also a one time payout, and the territory can keep paying out if the other side (not an ally) continues to reclaim the true neutral.

[Young Grasshopper]

Vance, you are a freakin god! I have set up the poll in this thread and members are now free to vote. I agree with your decision not to include force pools in these versions, I think they would have put this tread in a web of red tape for months. Cheers.

[Guest]

Thanks! My vote goes to version 1C.

[Young Grasshopper]

@Vance:

Thanks! My vote goes to version 1C.

you get 2 votes, and I have noticed that if you don’t use all your votes at once, before you see the results, you can’t use your remaining votes, is that correct?

[Young Grasshopper]

In version 1C…. what if Germany attacks a strict neutral and one of the neutral territories within that block is pro axis, does that territory also become allied controled immediatly after germany takes the strict neutral?

[JimmyHat]

A few things, first we should not list Switz or Sweden or even Mongolia in the ‘blocks’ section if the next line reads, control of an entire block will net you a 3ipc NO.  That is confusing.

Secondly none of these options include my proposal for Sweden.

3rd, I think a lot of these ideas need to be playtested.  Especially the one that allows the US/Rus to DOW the axis.  It might not make a difference at all and it might make a huge difference.  Perhaps we take the top 2 or 3 and playtest them?  Got to get dice on the board(instead of boots on the ground)

Last a lot of these deal with NO’s which one would assume will be checked over in the final adjustments to Delta.

Vance, if you want to just cut and paste from my post a few pages back I have the rules written out for Mongolia and Sweden.

[Guest]

@Young:

you get 2 votes, and I have noticed that if you don’t use all your votes at once, before you see the results, you can’t use your remaining votes, is that correct?

Yes that’s how it went last time.

[Guest]

@JimmyHat:

Vance, if you want to just cut and paste from my post a few pages back I have the rules written out for Mongolia and Sweden.

OK I will add them.

[Young Grasshopper]

Play testing and editing of finalized suggestions happens after Delta+1 is finished, and before Delta+2 is finalized.

[Guest]

@Young:

In version 1C…. what if Germany attacks a strict neutral and one of the neutral territories within that block is pro axis, does that territory also become allied controled immediatly after germany takes the strict neutral?

I have edited them with the term “strict neutral” inserted to clarify that only strict neutrals become pro axis or pro allies

[Young Grasshopper]

@Vance:

@Young:

In version 1C…. what if Germany attacks a strict neutral and one of the neutral territories within that block is pro axis, does that territory also become allied controled immediatly after germany takes the strict neutral?

I have edited them with the term “strict neutral” inserted to clarify that only strict neutrals become pro axis or pro allies

To quote Will Smith in the movie Hancock,    “Good job…… Good job”

[Young Grasshopper]

We need more voters for the versions Vance listed, or explain why you don’t wish to vote for one. Thanks

[special forces]

Honestly, i prefer the original neutral rules over the suggested neutral blocks modification, so i’ll refrain from voting on this one.

[Young Grasshopper]

@special:

Honestly, i prefer the original neutral rules over the suggested neutral blocks modification, so i’ll refrain from voting on this one.

A “none of the above” option has been added to this poll.

[special forces]

@Young:

@special:

Honestly, i prefer the original neutral rules over the suggested neutral blocks modification, so i’ll refrain from voting on this one.

A “none of the above” option has been added to this poll.

then i voted ;)

[JimmyHat]

I voted 2a, it seems to have the least impact on the board, but only playtesting will tell us actually which is the best.

Actually I voted for the wrong one, I wanted 1a, the one where they automatically turn and not go ‘pro-neutral’.

But in reality I would have voted for my suggestion, which is 1a with the addition of Mongolia no longer being a strict neutral at all but instead being directly linked to the Rus/Jap border.

[JimmyHat]

@Young:

In version 1C…. what if Germany attacks a strict neutral and one of the neutral territories within that block is pro axis, does that territory also become allied controled immediatly after germany takes the strict neutral?

Not sure I follow, could you give us an example?  Remember that the neutral blocks rule has no influence on pro neutrals.

[wheatbeer]

In 1C there isn’t any way for a member of a neutral block to ever be pro-axis or pro-allies.

[Jennifer]

Holy hell, too many options!

Guys, I know it’s cool and all to have your post count increased, but to make it easier for everyone could you list every option (with bold red letters for the option designation) in one post?