Sea Lion: Is it worth it?!?!?!

[thatonekid]

Sea Lion: one of two major strategies with germany. it will work if you do it right, but im here to ask you guys if you think its worth it. many times, when i play a sea-lion game, russia is knocking on my backdoor and ROFLstomps me. id like to know what you guys think you can do to avoid this, or if sea-lion is worth it at all……

btw i already have a quasi-strat for fending off the russki’s, i just wanna know what you guys all think.

[Dylan the Canadian]

Russia might be able to push your front back, but with British income you can build a really good force, and then be able to push back on Russia and then once you capture Leningrad, with London you won’t need Moscow so then just push to Stalingrad, but remember Moscow is still good to have you could try to invade Washington if the Japanese are messing up and do it your self.

[JimmyHat]

the secret is when you return to the mainland with that force from England, do not build all inf.  Build all tanks or mostly tanks.  I like to buy a ftr/tac with that money too.  This increases your threat potential, Russia still will be unable to take Berlin with all these tanks purchased, and you are now set to push back against the Red Tide.

[GoSanchez6]

I personally think it is worth it. If you roll good and he doesn’t Germany can hold England without putting any more units there. With the money you make from England buy infantry and artillery. Use your luftwaffe fully now on Russia. It will take time but if you hold England that is all it is a matter of. Not to mention the NO and the IPC"S you are getting.

[WILD BILL]

In most games we’ve played that there was a Sea lion, there are normally not to many Germans left if/when they get England (it’s normally close). There aren’t going to be many Germans returning to the main land IMO, because UK can make it cost you. Plus the US will be looking to take back England, so what ever is left will be needed to def (and probably more) against a liberation party. Your going to need to def both England from the US, and your original tt’s from Russia, well before you can go offensive again IMO. Italy will also be needed to nip at Russia, or help def/trade the boarder tt’s. Your German Navy & tpts will come in handy to then turn on Russia later through the Baltic, but your normally not using units that just took London. It would be w/units bought w/English plunder. Much depends on how much the US is spending in Europe, and SL can be magnet.

[KillOFzee]

The only time I ever do sea-lion is on G2. I build 2 transports and 2 subs G1, and place them in sz 112. This forces the British player to invest completely in the defence of the UK. If he doesnt, I land and take it. Personally, I dont think it is worth it to spend all your reasources in G2 that could be used against, who must inevitabbly be defeated to win. Good thing is, that the navy from G1 can be used later on againt russia.

[WILD BILL]

I’m not one to plan SL from the beginning and put 12+ tpts in the water at some point. I usually buy 1-2 tpts maybe a dd G1 to see how UK responds. Its more target of opportunity, if I see an opening I’ll give it a shot generally using Scotland as a stepping stone. One game I was able to take Scotland w/Italy (yeah they messed up) then bring in German ground & air as reinforcements to then attack England the next turn w/German Scotts, and reloading my 6 tpts from the French coast. Even that attack was costly (damn dice), and I had to retreat back to Scotland (didn’t want to cut into my air force), then reload a 2nd time from Normandy to hit them again. Good thing I was also convoying UK, so they couldn’t buy much.

The one thing I have learned is if you are even thinking of SL, don’t buy an IC for Romania. Been there, done that, wouldn’t recommended it  :?

[Young Grasshopper]

I think it’s worth it. 8 extra IPC’s (including Scotland) for every round, $28 Capital cash from the UK, and a $5 NO for every round you hold London, but the best reason for successfully attempting sealion is to prevent an allied power from placing units on the board as early as round 2. As for Russia, I like it when they come toward Berlin, better to battle those units close to home rather than trying to chase them all over Russia. I leave Poland and Romania thin so I can entice Russia to attack therefore creating a war of attrition close to my Factories (a war Russia can’t win because they are far from home and the money will eventually favor Germany) instead of spreading thin across vast russian ground and leaving territories open. I admit that if Germany does sealion, they won’t be able to take the attack to Moscow, but if they play their cards right…… they won’t have to.

[Young Grasshopper]

@WILD:

The one thing I have learned is if you are even thinking of SL, don’t buy an IC for Romania. Been there, done that, wouldn’t recommended it  :?

I have bought an IC for Romania at the beginning of G2 (before sealion) and have placed it at the end of G2 (after sealion) and the only way it will work is if Italy sends units to Romania I1 and I2 to reenforce it before Russia enters the war. but recently I have been contemplating building it in Hungary.

[Alsch91]

building it in Hungary.

Well there’s not really a point in doing that.
Hungary is only 1 space from Germany.  Just use that 30 IPCs to build stuff in Berlin and move it to Hungary the next turn.  It takes the same amount of time to get there, and uses 30 less IPCs.

The only reason Romania works is because it’s closer to the Ukraine.  Even then it’s tough to justify the 30 IPCs.

[Young Grasshopper]

@Alsch91:

building it in Hungary.

Well there’s not really a point in doing that.
Hungary is only 1 space from Germany.  Just use that 30 IPCs to build stuff in Berlin and move it to Hungary the next turn.  It takes the same amount of time to get there, and uses 30 less IPCs.

The only reason Romania works is because it’s closer to the Ukraine.  Even then it’s tough to justify the 30 IPCs.

Well after SL, Germany will need to flex some mussel south toward Bessarabia because that direction will be bare even if Italy helps. I have also been thinking that 2 Minors (1 in Hungary and 1 in Yugoslavia) might also work when the Russians try to take Poland and Romania. they will also collectively cost less than 1 Major IC and they might be easier to protect.

[JimmyHat]

Another thing to remember, with the mobility afforded Germany by those trns in the Baltic, if Russia lunges hard into Europe you can land at Novgorod and force him to retreat.  If they don’t retreat you might get lucky like I did once and cut off their army from Russia.  No more reinforcements for the Reds!  Just remember to keep your northern options open, if Russia is strong in the south flank him in the North to threaten Moscow and force a retreat.

[thatonekid]

and one of the moves ive found comes as a surprise lately is building 1AC, 2 trns like your going to do a SL, then build them in z112 and you can use 3 move(NB) to get to z127  :-D russia ussually leaves this undefended

[Young Grasshopper]

@JimmyHat:

Another thing to remember, with the mobility afforded Germany by those trns in the Baltic, if Russia lunges hard into Europe you can land at Novgorod and force him to retreat.  If they don’t retreat you might get lucky like I did once and cut off their army from Russia.  No more reinforcements for the Reds!   Just remember to keep your northern options open, if Russia is strong in the south flank him in the North to threaten Moscow and force a retreat.

Understood, but I fought hard to get Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, and Greece and I don’t want to loose them to a southern push by Russia.

[Alsch91]

Well to keep it in perspective Moscow > Balkan States.

[knp7765]

@thatonekid:

and one of the moves ive found comes as a surprise lately is building 1AC, 2 trns like your going to do a SL, then build them in z112 and you can use 3 move(NB) to get to z127  :-D russia ussually leaves this undefended

That’s a very cool idea.  I forget that you can get to Leningrad from SZ 127.  Don’t you also send a destroyer to deal with the Soviet submarine?
I think Sealion is very useful if you can pull it off.  It’s especially good for Italy.  If UK defends too much on London, so Germany doesn’t do Sealion, even if UK doesn’t get off of England, they can make things really tough for the Italains in Africa.  However, if England falls, Italy basically has a free hand in Africa, the Med and the Middle East.
As for the Soviets, I’ve found that a certain pattern happens:  Germany attacks and smashes the Soviet front lines, USSR counterattacks and kills one or two of the front German armies (usually with pretty bad loss to their own forces), then German reinforcements come up, smash the Russian counter attack force and start heading further into Russia.  At this point, Russia doesn’t really have much in the way of reinforcements to keep the Germans back, while the Germans seem to have more to keep up the push.  However, if England is still in the game, then reinforcements on the Eastern front can really suffer because Germany has to keep getting stuff to keep the Brits at bay.

[thatonekid]

@knp7765:

@thatonekid:

and one of the moves ive found comes as a surprise lately is building 1AC, 2 trns like your going to do a SL, then build them in z112 and you can use 3 move(NB) to get to z127  :-D russia ussually leaves this undefended

That’s a very cool idea.  I forget that you can get to Leningrad from SZ 127.  Don’t you also send a destroyer to deal with the Soviet submarine?
I think Sealion is very useful if you can pull it off.  It’s especially good for Italy.  If UK defends too much on London, so Germany doesn’t do Sealion, even if UK doesn’t get off of England, they can make things really tough for the Italains in Africa.  However, if England falls, Italy basically has a free hand in Africa, the Med and the Middle East.
As for the Soviets, I’ve found that a certain pattern happens:  Germany attacks and smashes the Soviet front lines, USSR counterattacks and kills one or two of the front German armies (usually with pretty bad loss to their own forces), then German reinforcements come up, smash the Russian counter attack force and start heading further into Russia.  At this point, Russia doesn’t really have much in the way of reinforcements to keep the Germans back, while the Germans seem to have more to keep up the push.  However, if England is still in the game, then reinforcements on the Eastern front can really suffer because Germany has to keep getting stuff to keep the Brits at bay.

you dont have to send a des, if you send a battle and cruise that you start with, the sub shouldnt win, or it might even submerge

[oly lift]

I have played (in the middle of my 3rd game, so take it for what it is).  I have been Axis all 3 games because my friends refuse to let me try being the Allies until they are able to beat me.  I have found that building for Sea Lion turn 1 is great because it has so much versitility but not worth pursuing unless it is feasible to make UK fall turn 2.

Game 1, succeeded in turn 2 Sea Lion they quit because they thought it was over.

Game 2, built Sea Lion they bunkered and I went over to Leningrad and was putting the smack down on Russia while using a paper navy (subs and bombers to destroy UK’s navy everytime they tried to build one).  Just out side Moscow when cats destroyed the game but bascially Russia was about to fall and US was dumb and went down to the Medeterranian but lost all land units so just sat there so Italy could build no navy.  Italy built a IC in Egypt so it was pointless.

Game 3 was a fluke/unwise tactics by allies (keep in mind I am playing with the same people).  I built 3 trans and 1 cruiser and a few artillary turn 1.  Decimated UK navy (my teammate did all rolls with spactacular rolls the whole game so far).  UK brought units from Canada, pulled 2 infantry to Scotland, lost 1 fighter destroying my battleship (so had 7 units to defend capital, I couldn’t believe it was so undefended after I did it once already!).  I took UK round 2 only losing 1 bomber (stupid lucky AA roll on his last roll) and all infantry, had 1 tank and 2 art left.  This game is basically done because my teammate’s rolls were insanely good.  We took burma road country (forgot name) in Jturn 1.  China tried to take it back and my teammated lost all his units but took all of Chinas so we just moved all we had into it even planes and UK is scared to attack it.  China has 5 pieces of land left soon to be 3 and can build nothing basically.  UK pacific is getting 8 ipc a turn and no navy, another spacticular defense of our navy near india were my guy rolled 5 2s in a row decimating attacking force of uk med navy, pacific navy (minus battleship, we took that out turn 1), and all of pacific’s airforce.  We are about to make ANZAK lose its capital because they left it defended only with 2 inf and a carrier outside while I have 1 inf 1 art and a big portion of my navy in attacking distance (2 carriers with 2 planes and to tac).  This is all before round 3!

[JimmyHat]

Excellent recap oly.  Sounds like your opponents either need to play Axis(easier win) or they might want to try playing past the time they think they’ve lost.  The fall of London does not doom the Allies.  It is interesting none of your games have gone past round 3….

Tell them next time you’re not interested in playing unless they commit to 5+ rounds.  Even if Eus falls, play through the first 5 rounds.

Also, a page or 2 back we had a long (10+ page thread) on the proper ways to defend against Sealion.  Its a lot of reading but will make your opponents see that London is not the end of the game, merely the beginning.

[oly lift]

After the first game I explained to them how it wasn’t over based on comments on this site.  The second game was actually on to round 5 before my parents cats (game set up at their home for more room) found the game and decided to “play” with the pieces.  This game is still on but I do not think they will want to continue playing once ANZAK falls, China will only have 3 terriotories left netting 1 inf per turn, UK pacific taking in 8 without much hope of attacking japan again for 2 turns (we are about to destroy the only force they have near us).  China will be absorbed soon, Uk pacific soon after I am saying with only 2 super powers really left they dont have much hope.

I think I have developed some good strategies against Sea Lion/some strategies for the Allies that I wanted to try but they didnt let me play as the Allies.  I kept trying to explain to them that they need to basically try to focus thier efforts on a big turn 4 once the other allies get in and to basically survive until then but I don’t think they understand how to fully do that.  IE they had a decent start by pulling the russian bs on territory west to slow my attack on leningrad and would have been on to making me work if they bunkered up in UK but instead they left it wide open.  I was honestly astounded at it because it seems like such a foolish move oh well once we finish this game hopefully they will let me finally be the allies.