Possible Changes from Larry

[technobabble66]

The changes all seem great, with one or two exceptions:
**1) UK 2nd capital in ottawa - as explained in great detail by sgtBlitz, it nerfs the Sealion strategy completely. Taking euroUK’s only capital and stopping their war contribution is the only reason to Sealion, otherwise the UK isles hv little strategic value for axis. It really is just that simple. If the euroUK is taken out of the war, the UK player still has India to play. If that’s taken too, then they can try to cajole the USA player to liberate London to hv another player rejoin the allies’ ranks. Seems perfectly fair to me.

The major problem with the OOB global game seems to consistently be that for evenly matched (namely good/experienced) players, it is v v hard for the axis to win. Hence the axis really dont need to be nerfed too much. That’s not to say don’t touch them at all if the errata’s altering many things - maybe the axis need a bit of a change to aid the rebalancing of the allies, etc. But there’s little point altering the OOB setup if it doesn’t address this fundamental problem as it currently seems to stand (only 3-4 months after release, admittedly)

**2) The overall potential increase to USA NO’s. Basically, the +20 base alone still places USA at a sufficiently high level to waltz over in 4-6 turns and smash the euroAxis. The +10 for the collection of 7 islands is a great idea. +5 for the 3 pairs of islands may be ok, but could add too much to the USA. Maybe it’s better to only use a +10 base and maintain the other proposals. That way if the USA maintains the Pacific theatre, it could get +35 ipcs - 5 more than the OOB - and if it doesn’t, then its only getting +10 (or maybe a little more if Japan’s lazy).

WRT my earlier point abt it already being tough for the axis, its mainly because the USA comes over to europe and takes berlin. And w relative ease - even if the first wave dies, the second or third does the job shortly afterwards. 70 ipcs is still enuff to do this . This is especially so because those 70 ipcs is almost impossible to reduce. Sure the other powers can accrue high incomes, but all of them are somewhat vulnerable to being shaved down. Not so the USA. That’s why i think Larry’s general proposals are awesome to rebalance things; i’d just go a bit further. Maybe the new victory conditions will address this issue effectively and so his NO’s are fine. Time will tell. I’d suspect tho, that it will take Japan many turns to take India, then Sydney, then Honolulu. I’d guess J7 optimistically; so US5 should make a dent on europe, then 1-2 turns to drop a fleet in hawaii… etc

That said, v v happy w almost all of the other changes. Esp the victory conditions and the new NO’s (esp esp in the pacific). The extras suggested by oztea et al - namely the 2 subs in sz95 would be well worthwhile.

Two other possible additions:

1. Add a few more seazones in the Atlantic - eg: split sz 102, 90, 88 each into 2 seazones.
2. Remove the bases in Gibraltar.

[special forces]

@technobabble66:

The changes all seem great, with one or two exceptions:
**1) UK 2nd capital in ottawa - as explained in great detail by sgtBlitz, it nerfs the Sealion strategy completely. Taking euroUK’s only capital and stopping their war contribution is the only reason to Sealion, otherwise the UK isles hv little strategic value for axis. It really is just that simple. If the euroUK is taken out of the war, the UK player still has India to play. If that’s taken too, then they can try to cajole the USA player to liberate London to hv another player rejoin the allies’ ranks. Seems perfectly fair to me.

Well, what if UK in exile would only receive IPC’s from Canadian territory? That way they get 6 IPC.
They’re not really in the game anymore (still attractive enough for Sealion), but Canada isn’t completely defenseless as well.

[Funcioneta]

Hypotetical case:

New USA’s NO: the Enterprise. If, being at war, USA holds Hawaii, Alaska, Midway and the Aleutians, USA gets the Enterprise for free! (one time NO). But wait, it’s 24th century’s USS Enterprise, with Jean L. Picard, Data, orbital bombardments, phasers, fancy high-tech weapons and even a DVD of the series! . In game terms, 24th century’s Enterprise is a 5/5 unit that repeat rolls, has 10 hits, is inmune to aa gun fire (and all other units must roll at 1s and repeat the succesfull rolls) and counts as land, sea and air unit, all in the same basket (it’s even a submarine, a trannie and a mayor IC)! You can deploy the Enterprise at any place in Pacific board, even in enemy, neutral or impassable territories. If any turn USA doesn’t buy any boats at the Pacific board, remove the Enterprise from the game forever

Sad fact:

Even with that imaginary NO, many would still say that there is not much incentive to fight for the Pacific

[calvinhobbesliker]

Techno, how is 70 ipcs enough to kill the Euro Axis? Germany will have about that amount of money, and it only needs to spend 6 ipcs for every 14 ipcs the US spends(2 inf vs inf, art, Transport), leaving it with plenty to fight Russia. Seriously, what in the world are Japan and Germany doing

[special forces]

@calvinhobbesliker:

Techno, how is 70 ipcs enough to kill the Euro Axis? Germany will have about that amount of money, and it only needs to spend 6 ipcs for every 14 ipcs the US spends(2 inf vs inf, art, Transport), leaving it with plenty to fight Russia. Seriously, what in the world are Japan and Germany doing

I was asking myself the same thing…

[calvinhobbesliker]

@SalothSar:

When are these changes coming out?

Define “coming out.”

[Guest]

Thank you oztea for listing the changes that were introduced by Larry Harris.  One thing that was not listed though was Larry’s proposal for minor industrial complexes in the US:

Larry Harris - “Another important concept under consideration is to change both US Industrial Complexes to minors. The US player can, without expense, up grade them during the first Mobilize New Units phase following the event of war. They can only be used as majors on the following turn.”

Do people think that this will not be one of the changes?  If this will be implemented, then what does Larry mean by both US Industrial Complexes since US has three Major Complexes?  I am assuming he meant EUS and WUS.

[Funcioneta]

In fact, I think that the CUSA IC should be deleted. Any thing that speeds up the invasion of America in case of a ignore Japan strat is good

[tarkonis]

@Funcioneta:

Hypotetical case:

New USA’s NO: the Enterprise. If, being at war, USA holds Hawaii, Alaska, Midway and the Aleutians, USA gets the Enterprise for free! (one time NO). But wait, it’s 24th century’s USS Enterprise, with Jean L. Picard, Data, orbital bombardments, phasers, fancy high-tech weapons and even a DVD of the series! . In game terms, 24th century’s Enterprise is a 5/5 unit that repeat rolls, has 10 hits, is inmune to aa gun fire (and all other units must roll at 1s and repeat the succesfull rolls) and counts as land, sea and air unit, all in the same basket (it’s even a submarine, a trannie and a mayor IC)! You can deploy the Enterprise at any place in Pacific board, even in enemy, neutral or impassable territories. If any turn USA doesn’t buy any boats at the Pacific board, remove the Enterprise from the game forever

Sad fact:

Even with that imaginary NO, many would still say that there is not much incentive to fight for the Pacific

With the game ending if Japan claim their victory cities, I think that would be incentive enough.:)

[Funcioneta]

Some people are saying that is enough with holding Hawaii and ignoring the rest (with a goal of 7 VCs)… go figure how strong is the KGF dogma

[Stefano1189]

@Funcioneta:

Some people are saying that is enough with holding Hawaii and ignoring the rest (with a goal of 7 VCs)… go figure how strong is the KGF dogma

6 victory city… 7 it’s too hard for Japan.

[Bigtiti]

did Larry’s iq just sunk to rock bottom?
germany already has it so tough!
in last game, UK (no sealion) and USSR with soem french help and few americans were enough to halt germany, sending over 60 IPC of US aid to japan
and japan is key in this game: they are in reach of money

italy is banging on egypt wall, especially with IC
germany is banging on russian wall

[MarkVIIIMarc]

The victory cities in the Pacific mattering rule should lessen the load on europe. America might have to do like real life. Retake……Wake was it? to make Japanese advancements slower then go europe first for awhile and finally come kick japans butt.

[fanofbond]

@Frontovik:

did Larry’s iq just sunk to rock bottom?
germany already has it so tough!
in last game, UK (no sealion) and USSR with soem french help and few americans were enough to halt germany, sending over 60 IPC of US aid to japan
and japan is key in this game: they are in reach of money

italy is banging on egypt wall, especially with IC
germany is banging on russian wall

Did you read Larry’s actual post?  A lot of the proposals he is currently thinking through will put A LOT more money into the pacific. And give Germany a little better of position at the start.  If the victory conditions change to where Japan can win it all for the axis and the US chooses to minimally go after Japan then Japan should be able to over come their opponents and get thoses 6 cities farily quickly.  Then have a harder go for the 7th.

[technobabble66]

@calvinhobbesliker:

Techno, how is 70 ipcs enough to kill the Euro Axis? Germany will have about that amount of money, and it only needs to spend 6 ipcs for every 14 ipcs the US spends(2 inf vs inf, art, Transport), leaving it with plenty to fight Russia. Seriously, what in the world are Japan and Germany doing

From what i’ve seen, Germany’s hard pressed devoting all it’s resources to hitting USSR. USA can strike by US4 and Germany’s unlikely to take moscow before G5 - and that’s assuming no Sealion. Without Sealion, the euroUK is still active, tho not a major threat by itself. Combined w USA, the UK becomes v useful to punch holes in German defences. With a Sealion, Germany should be abt halfway to Moscow by the time USA arrives.
I’d repeat, its the extreme lack of pressure USA currently has on it that facilitates the 70ipcs being quite powerful. Yes it has to waste cash on trannies, but it can also use trannies to land wherever it wants etc, so its not all just cash down the toilet.
It seems like once the USA arrives in force, euroAxis are screwed. I’ll happily admit that maybe my games havent balanced particularly well or something, but the basic issue of attrition always looked to eventually crush Germany at that point. Ideally Germany should have some ability to hold off the USA even if they land in europe. Maybe a better group of players than mine can reach that equilibrium where tactics come into play once more. And i’m hoping the proposed changes go a v long way to achieve that also.

Hell, it’s probably best to test the proposed changes as an official errata and see what happens; so there’s small steps of change occurring rather than being more drastic. However i suspect the KGF strategy may still be prevelant with that +20 bonus.
I’d keep in mind that its plausible that with the proposed changes that the USA could actually be 5 ipcs higher than it currently is; and that doesn’t necessarily involve going hard at japan, just taking a few islands in the Pacific.
Tho i’m desperately hoping Japan will be greedy and want the islands too, hence the Pacific battles are ON, baby!!

[JamesG]

The latest from Larry:
http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=2568&p=30797#p30797

Well some of you… especially you Foremir, will be happy to lean that the UK Government in exile idea is rather quickly fading away as a possible change. In the final annalists it simply aint Axis & Allies. I ran it up the pole to see who saluted it. I often do that… I ended up with more people going AWOL than saluting on this one.

Different subject…
I’m thinking of adding an airbase (Italian of course) to Sicily. I would then move the fighter presently in S. Italy to the airbase. This aircraft can now scramble. It protects the fleet in the same sea zone and it will prove to be an important defensive position for the Italians if and when the Americans start showing up.

[molinar13]

http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=2568&start=312

At the bottom of the page Larry is considering a change to the scrambling rule, by which only three planes may now scramble and Air Bases on land can scramble to adjacent SZ. This change IMO will help save both UK and Italian navies. UK can now scramble to help save some of its units, and in turn Italy can do the same during a UK1 Taranto attack.

[questioneer]

wait guys…Larry is changing his mind again.  Seems to do that every 10 minutes :?
I give up.  I know…the new setup will be…just open the board and throw some pieces on it and start playing. :wink:

[Guest]

I really like the new scramble rules. 
  1.  Territories that have airfields should also be able to scramble planes.
  2.  The limit of 3 planes makes it more vital to have navies protect key targets such as Japan
      and Hawaii.
  3.  Now UK can protect against Sealion and Italy can protect against Taranto.
  4.  Don’t forget that Germany can also protect its navy against UK planes.

Overall, Larry has made a lot of great suggestions, and I hope that they all become official.  I realize that some people might find problems after a few games, but overall, the game will be greatly improved!

[axisisthebest]

from harris game design

http://harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=4035

the alpha+ playtest specifications, changes that are made will be in red