British Counter to Sea Lion?

[rocknroll]

so, your plan is to pull off a sealion-attack on G2?

if not, than maybe the british fleet can be reinforced by those ships from the mediterranian etc. as jamesaleman described it here:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=20902.0

greetings

[jim010]

No, I do G3, as the odds for success are much much greater.

[rocknroll]

in this case (you bought minimum two transports in G2), i would buy two fighters and three infantry as UK. the carrier with tactical bomber and the destroyer in seazone 91 would not move keeping them safe from the luftwaffe and move the “canadian fleet” to seazone 109 taking a tank and an infantry to uk. the cruiser in the mediterranian should go to support the french, the transport leaves through the suez.

this means, that at the and uf UK’s turn you would find five infantry, a tank and five fighters in the uk. and those five fighters can attack together with two destroyers (or only one if the one in seazone 109 gets destroyed), and the carrier the small german fleet consisting of a carrier fully loaded, one battleship and a cruiser sake of movement bonuses of the naval base in gibraltar and the uk. IF there is a only-transport-buy in G2 for germany etc. …

only italy can screw this whole maneuver leaving egypt out of anything for almost two rounds, because the italian troops in alexandria/egypt cannot be reinforced sooner.

is this a recognizeable counter now? i hope so… :evil: :-D

[robbie358]

I think that the Sea Lion thing is there to represent the threat so that the UK doesn’t go on offense right away.
If you don’t play it conservative… if you don’t buy all infantry the first turn… if you go all in on the Italian fleet… you’re gonna lose the UK.

For example… if you’re building naval units and bringing up the carrier from Gibraltar… you’re not attacking the Italian fleet.  If you’re buying all infantry… you’re not threatening Africa or Norway at all.

My point is the Germany doesn’t have to decide if it’s going Sea Lion or Barbarossa until it’s Turn 2 Purchase Units phase.  That means that either way, turn 1 the UK has got to play it safe.

[jim010]

I would agree.

[jim010]

in this case (you bought minimum two transports in G2), i would buy two fighters and three

infantry as UK. the carrier with tactical bomber and the destroyer in seazone 91 would not move keeping them safe from the luftwaffe and move the “canadian fleet” to seazone 109 taking a tank and an infantry to uk. the cruiser in the mediterranian should go to support the french, the transport leaves through the suez.

I can hit sz91 from sz112 anyway.  2 planes and 1 bmb also make it (more if I build a CV).

I may not do this anyway.

this means, that at the and uf UK’s turn you would find five infantry, a tank and five fighters in the uk. and those five fighters can attack together with two destroyers (or only one if the one in seazone 109 gets destroyed), and the carrier the small german fleet consisting of a carrier fully loaded, one battleship and a cruiser sake of movement bonuses of the naval base in gibraltar and the uk. IF there is a only-transport-buy in G2 for germany etc. …

You will have given me an opportunity at taking London on turn 2 with a much lower investment than a turn 3 attempt. 
I’ll have 3 inf, 3 art, 4 fht, 3 tac, 1 bmb, 1 BB, 1 CA vs 5 inf, 1 tank, 5 fht - that’s an 83% for me that I would jump on.

is this a recognizeable counter now? i hope so…

Some ideas here.  Keep tweaking, and maybe you’re onto something.

[Lydian]

@jim010:

0 - 2 subs can survive, and typically all planes.

Which is the most recent version of Sealion?
According to the results posted in the V1-thread you lost 2 ftr.

[jim010]

I no longer hit sz106.  Boosts my odds in other sea fights.

[rocknroll]

as germany i followed your suggestions: bought two transporters and a carrier. lost one fighters and all subs during round one.
so germany could attack uk with 3 infantry, 3 artillery, 3 fighters, 3 tactical bombers and 1 strategic bomber against the british forces.

as the british i left the italian fleet aside, reinforced the french fleet with the cruiser and the carrier filled with the fighter from egypt. (did not help well. so i think about leaving this reinforcement and gathering this small british fleet in seazone 92 giving the italian two targets to attack, better said: two targets and only one to choose…)

i set up the board at home, checking some details concerning the defence of sealion. (i “played” alone…)  it happened mostly to be that all german subs are sunk at the end of round one and one british destroyers is either in seazone 109 and 110. so attacking-support via bombardment won´t occure and the british gains the important no-sub-NO.
second, the tactical bomber landed in uk. british buy in round one: 2 fighters and 3 infantries. so there are now 5 infantry, 1 tank, 1 tactical bomber, 5 fighters and an anti-aircraft-gun. (maybe it is better buying only 1 fighter and 6 infantries. so there could be 9 infantries, 1 tank, 1 tactical bombers, 4 fighters and 1 AA-gun).

what do you think? i believe, the buy of 6 infantry and one fighter is quite attractive which makes it hard for germany to gain the uk in round two.  8-)

rock on.

[jim010]

I’ll run the numbers and see how it looks for a UK attack on the Germans in sz112 and the G3 London attack.

I’ll get back to you.

[rocknroll]

i made 15 tries without support-shots and ignoring the AA-gun. in only four of those 15 tries germany had a chance to win. approximately every side gains six hits in the first dice-round, but the british with slightly better odds. well, i believe, this could hinder germany to try a sealion in G2.
in UK2 there could be an attack on the german fleet with maximum one destroyer and 4 fighters and a tactical bomber, but this depends on G2 buys obviously.

c ya…soon! :-D

[jim010]

as the british i left the italian fleet aside, reinforced the french fleet with the cruiser and the carrier filled with the fighter from egypt. (did not help well. so i think about leaving this reinforcement and gathering this small british fleet in seazone 92 giving the italian two targets to attack, better said: two targets and only one to choose…)

In that scenario, hit the UK carrier.  You could block w/ the UK CA, though.  Then the UK planes and a loaded TT can make it back to London.

i set up the board at home, checking some details concerning the defence of sealion. (i “played” alone…)  it happened mostly to be that all german subs are sunk at the end of round one and one british destroyers is either in seazone 109 and 110.

Hit sz109 with 1 sb, 1 fht. 
Hit sz110 with 2 sb, 2 fht, 1 tac. 
Hit sz111 with 2 sb, 1 fht, 1 tac, 1 bmb. 
Hit sz112 with 1 BB, 1 CA, 1 tac. 
If a ship lives in either 109, 110, 111 or 112, then it is time for plan B.  You SHOULD kill it all, though.  Odds are high in all battles - 109 being the lowest.  As long as you kill the DD there, then all is good.

so attacking-support via bombardment won´t occure and the british gains the important no-sub-NO.

You could forgo the 2nd TT and get a sb for the German buy as an alternative.

second, the tactical bomber landed in uk. british buy in round one: 2 fighters and 3 infantries. so there are now 5 infantry, 1 tank, 1 tactical bomber, 5 fighters and an anti-aircraft-gun. (maybe it is better buying only 1 fighter and 6 infantries. so there could be 9 infantries, 1 tank, 1 tactical bombers, 4 fighters and 1 AA-gun).

Odds of taking UK on turn 2 are 50% if all planes survived.  I would skip Sealion turn 2, then, and go with turn 3.

You’ll have $30 for UK, so I assume 10 inf.  Let’s say both planes from the carrier make it back, and you brought the TT.  These moves will have been initiated turn 1, so I wil be able to take this into account before I comit to buying the 9 TTs.  The Italian fleet is intact, and Africa just became easier for the Axis.  G2 really is decision time for Sealion.

You will now have in UK (max UK vs max Germany):
20 inf, 2 tanks, 5 fht, 1 tac vs (11 TT instead of 12, let’s say) 11 inf, 3 art, 8 tanks, 4 fht, 3 tac, 1 bmb, 1 BB, 1 CA

That is 65% Axis win.  I’d likely want that 2nd TT to load 1 more inf and art to give me 78%.

[jim010]

I’ll look at your turn 2 UK attack on sz112 later.  Looks promising, though.

[rocknroll]

@jim010:

You’ll have $30 for UK, so I assume 10 inf.  Let’s say both planes from the carrier make it back, and you brought the TT.  These moves will have been initiated turn 1, so I wil be able to take this into account before I comit to buying the 9 TTs.  The Italian fleet is intact, and Africa just became easier for the Axis.  G2 really is decision time for Sealion.

You will now have in UK (max UK vs max Germany):
20 inf, 2 tanks, 5 fht, 1 tac vs (11 TT instead of 12, let’s say) 11 inf, 3 art, 8 tanks, 4 fht, 3 tac, 1 bmb, 1 BB, 1 CA

That is 65% Axis win.  I’d likely want that 2nd TT to load 1 more inf and art to give me 78%.

hmmm, why is it 65% win? and where from do you have 8 tanks (okay 5 from france, the other three from hungary etc.?) and: did you forget the AA-gun? can explain your calculations, please?
it seems to me that odds are more like 50/50.

anyway, germany will loose a big part of its luftwaffe, that for sure. it appears to me, even if(!) UK will be conquered, it is going to be a pyrrhus-styled victory for germany.

thanx for answering, though.

but maybe a preemptive attack by the four or five british fighters, one tac, one destroyer and an aircraft-carrier against the german fleet is the key to prevent a sealion-attack.

okay:

one carrier (just for soaking up two hits)
one destroyer, 4 fighters, one tac vs. one carrier, one cruiser, one battleship and two fighters: every side needs to gain seven hits to destroy the other one.

2 x 0 (the british carrier)
1 x 2 vs. 1 x 2
4 x 3 vs. 1 x 3
1 x 4 vs. 3 x 4

kind of suicidal attack, though, but possible. all or nothin, hmm?
sealion prevented by that? what do you think?

rock on!

greets

[rocknroll]

noone with ideas to reply? too bad….

[special forces]

Well, if Germany doesn’t buy an AC a UK1 attack is not even suicidal. But if they do, it gets real risky…

Or do you mean turn2?

[jim010]

Sorry, I have not visited this thread in a while.  Sealion now takes a new turn with Larry’s ongoing changes.

hmmm, why is it 65% win? and where from do you have 8 tanks (okay 5 from france, the other three from hungary etc.?) and: did you forget the AA-gun? can explain your calculations, please?
it seems to me that odds are more like 50/50.

The other 3 tanks are coming from Yugoslavia.  Use the 1 from Pol, Hun and Rom to hit Yugo with 5 inf and then move them back to West Ger on turn 2.

As for the numbers, they are input into an odds calculator with AA turned on.  Those are the numbers given.

[jim010]

Inputing it in again, I know why we have a discrenpency.  You forgot the German amphib shots.

anyway, germany will loose a big part of its luftwaffe, that for sure. it appears to me, even if(!) UK will be conquered, it is going to be a pyrrhus-styled victory for germany.

You’ll survive with 5 units on average.  With the remaining units on turn 3, I’d pile up whatever I have on the mainland into Pol.  Buy inf/art to reload the TTs to dump back into pol as well.  You’ll find that you can quickly get your units back to the front using those TTs.  Leningrad will be the focus, as when you have built up enough and have moved to Bal Sta, Leningrad must be abandoned since your next hit on Lenin would include units built and ferried over by TTs.  You are outbuilding Russia as well, so it is just a matter of time.

Place the fleet in front of Gib as soon as practical and augment with Italy.  Buy 5 sb a turn with Italy and just keep pumping them into Gib.  Italy can get up to $40 with Africa no longer defensible.

This is how my games have gone (barring bad dice).  Try it.  Of course with the rules now changing, well see how this holds up.

[jim010]

but maybe a preemptive attack by the four or five british fighters, one tac, one destroyer and an aircraft-carrier against the german fleet is the key to prevent a sealion-attack.

okay:

one carrier (just for soaking up two hits)
one destroyer, 4 fighters, one tac vs. one carrier, one cruiser, one battleship and two fighters: every side needs to gain seven hits to destroy the other one.

2 x 0 (the british carrier)
1 x 2 vs. 1 x 2
4 x 3 vs. 1 x 3
1 x 4 vs. 3 x 4

kind of suicidal attack, though, but possible. all or nothin, hmm?
sealion prevented by that? what do you think?

Attacker survives 32%  With the loss of those fighters, Sealion jumps to 98% with 13 units on average surviving. Too risky.  I’d rather sit and hunker down with the UK, I think.

[rocknroll]

well, i took the risk…and:

i won! the german fleet got drowned to the ground, as uk i had left a fighter and a tactical bomber afterwards.  :-D :evil:

i have to admit, that in G1 the attack on sz 112 went slightly bad for the german. he attacked with a fighter, a bomber, cruiser and battleship and took three hits before he sunk the french-british navy. so he won with a damaged battleship and his cruiser.
he bought two transports and a carrier and landed two fighters on it.

six hits to make!

i attacked with the carrier, destroyer, three fighters and one tactical bomber.

in this special case uk lost material worth 44 IPC (carrier, destroyer, two fighters) vs germany 89 IPC. (carrier, two fighters, battleship, cruiser, three transports)

to block this attack, imho, germany hast to buy just warships, no tranports in G1. and if tranports, than just only one!

greetings from a smilinig uk-player (this time :D)