J3/4 India Crush / almost turned into US2 Japan Crush!!!???

[rmcbride]

So wanted to try the “J3 India Crush” scenario from last weeks thread on J3 / J4 India Crush Q, I was very interested in the detail  “Variance” gave, so I printed it out & followed it to the letter  (see last weeks thread).

I thought this would be a good time to try it, just to see how it would work w/ me playing the Axis & my 15yo inexperienced player son being the Allies.

So w/ everything playing out perfect thru J2, all set & poised to take India on J3, which looks like will happen after I wipe out the UK India fleet, before making an amphib landing & adding all my air units to the battle–-I should accomplish this goal.

But to my surprise, out of left field, comes my inexperienced 15yo son, noticing that I have just allowed the US to get into the fray by attacking UK & taking Shan State in J2 (per the Variances’ India Crush outline).  He also saw that Japan was only 3-sea spaces away from Hawaii, where he had moved the entire US fleet in US1 along w/ two transports & land units. 
So he said, “looks like Japan is wide open for invasion, no sea units, only 6inf & 1art” (because all the rest headed for India (per the J3-IC plan)-----so he hit Japan on US2 w/ his full fleet & transport loaded!    Because of the initial bombardments & land attack, he was able to almost take Japan on US2, leaving me w/ only 1-art before my next to last dice roll took his last inf unit!  :-o

Thus this has left Japan w/ all my Air, Navel & most of my mainland units all in SE Asia & off India poised for the J3-Crush, Japan w/ only 1-art & the entire US fleet in sz6 off Japan.

And, my son said he’s just going to leave the fleet their as fodder for anything I want to try to throw @ them for the next couple rounds while he builds & moves another fleet w/tt’s that should reach Japan by US5, & after the J3-crush, I would only be able to limp whats left of my fleet, planes, etc back to Japan by J5 to meet the onslaught.

All in all, this didn’t work out the way I thought it was going to, per the lay-out by “Variance” .  I’m now put in a position of ‘defense by attrition’, trying to get back to Japan, not being able to deal w/ ANZAC, the Philippines, or take the DEI (which was to be my J4 & J5.

Once I awoke the “Sleeping Giant” on J2, even w/ my inexperienced son, he now has 72ipc’s per round, has acquired “improved shipyards”, has his fleet off Japan, & on the Europe map, has taken Gibrltr back, has his  naval & subs staring to amass @ the Strait & my German & Italian units are spread thin while trying to accomplish their Basic goals as outline in the “Soulfein’s G2-dow on Russia” strategy from the German playbook that Cow’s recently been putting together!

So if anyone can make sense of this—what the heck just happened :?

[BJCard]

I all I can say is… if you aren’t prepared for a US attack on mainland Japan, ALWAYS have an available Destroyer to block the Pearl Harbor fleet.

[rmcbride]

@BJCard:

I all I can say is… if you aren’t prepared for a US attack on mainland Japan, ALWAYS have an available Destroyer to block the Pearl Harbor fleet.

According to the “J3 India Crush” setup & moves directed by the “Variance” post about J3/4 India Crush–it directed to move ENTIRE fleet to sz36 in J1 to set up the Crush for J3.

So I wasn’t paying attention or even contemplating the possibility of a US fleet/amphib coming from Pearl Harbor in 1move after I DOW’d on J3.  I totally missed even the possibility of it being w/i reach on 1-move, basically because “Variance’s” step’s for the J3 were so methodically laid out & never mentioned @ all to “leave something behind” or to "watch out for the BOLD US2 move of hitting Japan after Japan’s J2 Dow.

And not realizing this was coming Right after my DOW on J2, the Germany was also unprepared & US destroyed Germany’s BB & TT off Gibrltr (used to take Gib on G2) & amphibed Gib & took it back!

As I said, not prepared because I followed “J3 India Crush” moves to the letter & did the moves that Germany was supposed to do also.  I would have thought that if there was a possibility of this happening on US2, then the steps would have been laid out different.

Check out “Variance’s” play by play in J3/4 India Crush post from last week (March 1 thread) & also “Soulfein’s” G2 DOW Russia in Cow’s Germany playbook thread, from last week, that is meant to go together with this G2 / J2 plan.  Don’t know what I did differently?

[Kreuzfeld]

all you had to do was to build land in japan on J2

you can never follow ANY plan to the letter, the crush plan assumes some US moves, if US threathens japan, then it is not going south, you should always count and make sure that there is no invasion of your capitol.

usually this means that you should ask “what happens if US only builds trannies and landunits, will I be able to win on land? thus how many units do I need to have there now”

I have in every game I played counted for a US invasion on japan for the round I go to war, I count for that round, and the two following rounds, and usually end up buying 3-5 inf.

[Eqqman]

You should have been able to use Kamikaze strikes when the US attacked Japan to damage their fleet.  Even just using 1 strike will negate the shore bombardments since using it counts as a sea combat.

You also don’t need to take Shan State to make the J3 Calcutta hit happen.  Just make sure you hold Yunnan J2 and won’t lose it, and place an Air Base on Kiangsu(? the one that shares a SZ with Hainan).  On J3 planes launched from the Air Base can hit Calcutta and land in Yunnan.  Don’t DoW the Allies until the turn you attack Calcutta, this will allow you to sail right past any ships they try to use as blockers UK1/ANZAC1.  The only way the Allies can try to counter this is to give an early DoW that will protect you from US involvement.

[rmcbride]

@Kreuzfeld:

all you had to do was to build land in japan on J2 Variance’s J2 called for building 3-TT’s to accomplish his J3-IC, so I did & the rest went to land units.

you can never follow ANY plan to the letter, the crush plan assumes some US moves, if US threathens japan, then it is not going south, you should always count and make sure that there is no invasion of your capitol. The whole point was to follow Variance’s plan, as it was very detailed & I assumed accounted for the possibility of what might happen after J2 DOW, at least.

usually this means that you should ask “what happens if US only builds trannies and landunits, will I be able to win on land? thus how many units do I need to have there now” The US never built any ships or land units in the Pacific on US1, Just moved the few ships they had in w.US to Hawaii to link up with the fleet already there.  So, no real scary purchase in the Pac to watch for?

I have in every game I played counted for a US invasion on japan for the round I go to war, I count for that round, and the two following rounds, and usually end up buying 3-5 inf.  Definitely a good idea in the future for me, after seeing what happened here.  But as a I said, I wanted to follow a more experienced players’ strategy this time to see how it played out.  I knew I would be responsible for making it my own game, I thought,  after J3, but I thought I had til at least then to worry about any major moves by the allies, I never saw this coming as I was engrossed in following the plan!

[rmcbride]

@Eggman:

You should have been able to use Kamikaze strikes when the US attacked Japan to damage their fleet.  Even just using 1 strike will negate the shore bombardments since using it counts as a sea combat.  Thanx Egg, I totally spaced using the Kami’s, since # 1–this caught me by surprize, & #2–I usually use them in the latter game stages just to stave off the US fleet for a round or two, even if I just have to bluff about reminding the US player when he thinks he has me, that “great, go there & I’ve still got my Kami’s” so it might back him off for a round or two? & I didn’t realize that that counted as a sea battle to negate the Bombardment issue.  So thanx again for that.

You also don’t need to take Shan State to make the J3 Calcutta hit happen.  Just make sure you hold Yunnan J2 and won’t lose it, and place an Air Base on Kiangsu(? the one that shares a SZ with Hainan).  On J3 planes launched from the Air Base can hit Calcutta and land in Yunnan.  Don’t DoW the Allies until the turn you attack Calcutta, this will allow you to sail right past any ships they try to use as blockers J2.  The only way the Allies can try to counter this is to give an early DoW that will protect you from US involvement.

Seems like a tough hold for Yunnan on J2 because the Chinese get the backup forces for each turn & drop them all into Szechswan (spelling?) couple with the inf & figtr they already have there it just becomes a trade back & forth for the 1st few rounds anyway, unless I’m missing something here about what I should be doing with who? 
I hear you on "no DOW until hit Calcutta & sailing past the blockers, but w/ 6-TT’s per Variance’s plan running from Japan to sz36 to 38-39 I guess that would change Varianc’s play by play a little bit in that I’m going to have to keep good protection ships w/ those loaded TT’s so that the “not @ war” yet UK doesn’t get temped @ an unprovoked DOW & take them out.  It’s doable, but I was trying to follow his plan here. 
Any other thoughts?

[variance]

@Kreuzfeld:

all you had to do was to build land in japan on J2

Yes.
On J1 you would usually spend $21 on transports and 4 on an artillery.
On J2 you would usually spend $30 on the 2 bases and $9 on 3 infantry.

If USA has their fleet next to Hawaii all they can attack you with is the 3 shore bombards and 3 inf 1 art and their chance of winning Tokyo will be ~1% because you will take the inf from Okinawa, leaving 3AA, 6 inf in the capital. Use kamikazes on the cruisers and their chances are approximately 0.

If USA is staged with fig/tac in Midway, you leave the infantry in Tokyo and just grab some off Manchuria.  With kamikazes stopping the bombard the 3 inf, 1 art, 1 fig, 1 tac will have <1% chance against your 3aa, 9 inf.

I’m sorry it almost went bad for you, but this india crush thing has been around for a long time and I certainly didn’t invent it LOL

[Eqqman]

@El:

Seems like a tough hold for Yunnan on J2 because the Chinese get the backup forces for each turn & drop them all into Szechuan couple with the inf & figtr they already have there it just becomes a trade back & forth for the 1st few rounds anyway, unless I’m missing something here about what I should be doing with who?�
I hear you on "no DOW until hit Calcutta & sailing past the blockers, but w/ 6-TT’s per Variance’s plan running from Japan to sz36 to 38-39 I guess that would change Varianc’s play by play a little bit in that I’m going to have to keep good protection ships w/ those loaded TT’s so that the “not @ war” yet UK doesn’t get temped @ an unprovoked DOW & take them out.� It’s doable, but I was trying to follow his plan here.�
Any other thoughts?

Not having reviewed the whole plan myself, Variance can probably do a better job of tweaking it for you.  Your ability to hold Yunnan matters a lot depending on how many men have been lost by Japan and China fighting over it.  If you are skipping taking Shan State, then J2 it is not uncommon to use the Japanese air force on an unsupported attack on Szechuan just to eliminate the Chinese pile that might be there.  If you’re playing table-top and don’t have access to a battle calculator to give you a reasonable prediction on how many planes you might use in that kind of attack, you’ll have to use your own judgement on what to do.  If the Chinese went all-in trying to liberate Yunnan C1 and the Chinese Fighter landed in Burma, then you should feel pretty safe hitting Szechuan.  If they kept the Fighter there and used a minimal force to hit Yunnan, then it will be its most dangerous, but if you already have all 20+ Japanese planes in range to hit Szechuan J2 as it is, you are still likely to wipe out the stack on your first round of rolling regardless of what they do there.

Allied responses are limited.  If they DoW UK2, they could take possibly take Yunnan, but this means sending away units that can’t defend Calcutta when you attack.  You’ll have (possibly) your 3 TTs + 3 Fighter/TAC pairs plus 2 Bombers that might still be able to take Calcutta depending on what he has there on defense.  If you’re worried, then just retake Yunnan J3 and attack Calcutta J4 when you have even more material available.  The UK DoW now gives you the breathing space from the US that you need to stretch things out another turn if you need to play it safer.  In the meantime spend J3 cleaning out the Allied ships in the area and start taking SE Asia territory (while making sure any troops you use will still be in range of hitting Calcutta J4).

[variance]

Yunnan is a little too risky imho.  I’d rather rely on shan and airstrike Burma if the Brits try to stack it.

[rmcbride]

@variance:

Yunnan is a little too risky imho.  I’d rather rely on shan and airstrike Burma if the Brits try to stack it.

In my case the Brits didn’t stack Burma, they saw the J3 Crush coming & decided to pull back towards India, just leaving a token Inf.

[variance]

You might look into your odds of sinking what he has in z6 with just your ships.  Send all the transports and planes to India and send the fleet to z6.  Just a few ships to India in case of scramble.  At z6 take hits on carriers and battleships first. Build destroyers.  If he attacks you there next turn, let loose the kamikazes.  Nice to have India and the US fleet sunk.

[rmcbride]

@variance:

@Kreuzfeld:

all you had to do was to build land in japan on J2

Yes.
On J1 you would usually spend $21 on transports and 4 on an artillery.
On J2 you would usually spend $30 on the 2 bases and $9 on 3 infantry.
Ya, pretty much did that.

If USA has their fleet next to Hawaii all they can attack you with is the 3 shore bombards and 3 inf 1 art and their chance of winning Tokyo will be ~1% because you will take the inf from Okinawa, leaving 3AA, 6 inf in the capital. Use kamikazes on the cruisers and their chances are approximately 0.
Ya, it went pretty much like this also. Japan the 6inf, 1art & 3aa, US did use the 3-bombbards that scored 2-hits, then landed the 4-amphib’s & scored 3more. I rolled & got 2-hits.  US rolled again & landed another hit, Japan rolled & scored 1hit.  We both went again twice w/ us scoring no hits & Japan scored 1hit in final round taking their last land unit.   
I did forget all about my Kami’s, that Egg pointed out to me in his prev assessment & I also forgot that I could take hits w/ my AA guns, instead of my land units, so I guess that would have saved three more troops, if that would have been a smart thing to do? But I was just a little dismayed @ even the attempt of the US to do a US2 move against Japan.  My older son who I’ve played with since he was 8 (he’s 27 now), never goes for Japan, he likes attacking everything else & pushing me back until I concede.  So I guess this one caught me off guard for two reasons, one– because it was not mentioned in the J3 plan & two --because I was playing my younger, inexperienced son, & had never had this done before----so “out of the strategy or the BOLDNESS of Babes”  so to speak?

If USA is staged with fig/tac in Midway, you leave the infantry in Tokyo and just grab some off Manchuria.  With kamikazes stopping the bombard the 3 inf, 1 art, 1 fig, 1 tac will have <1% chance against your 3aa, 9 inf.

I’m sorry it almost went bad for you, but this india crush thing has been around for a long time and I certainly didn’t invent it LOL Hey don’t mistake my Questions & outcomes as poking @ you or beating you up for a bad plan or anything, not the way I meant it @ all & I know you didn’t invent the Crush.  I’m glad you had input & took the time to answer my rather detailed Q’s.  This looked like a good plan & the most popular start (based on the poll that keeps popping up is the G2 / J2.  So this has to be a popular strategy, I just implemented it wrong somehow & needed help to iron out my mistakes.  So THANX!
So my young son is now parked of the coast of Japan & is planning on leaving his fleet there as fodder, convoying me, so I will now have less to counter with, while he builds a new fleet w/ loaded TT’s & steams back across the sea for another stike by US5.

So, Gosh, my next question is how best to get out of this mess, or @ least, if not win, just to not get beat up so bad on the way out & save a little face???

[rmcbride]

@variance:

You might look into your odds of sinking what he has in z6 with just your ships.  Send all the transports and planes to India and send the fleet to z6.  Just a few ships to India in case of scramble.  At z6 take hits on carriers and battleships first. Build destroyers.  If he attacks you there next turn, let loose the kamikazes.  Nice to have India and the US fleet sunk.

But right now its uk2, all my fleet is in sz38, less the three loaded TT’s & two dd’s & 1ss as escorts are in sz36.  Uk’s main fleet all pulled back to sz39.  So wont I need my fleet to sink his fleet in sz39 & land the amphibs, then use my planes & land units all to take India on J3 1st, before sending my ships back to sz6 & Japan?  & if I do this, then my fleet, whats left of it,  will arrive back to sz6 on J5, just prior to the balance of the US’s new fleet w/ tt’s on US5.   
And then I’m thinking that the Anzac’s & Flip US is going to either nip @ my fleet, whittling more, all the way back.  Or they could just let me go, take the DEI & try to undo my gains in SE Asia, because I won’t be able to support my left over troops & airforce w/ fresh units, as well as have less ipc’s to build due to the sz6 convoy!

[variance]

The convoy raid isn’t going to break you.

But if you want to be funny, you could build another airbase in shan and land your planes there.  Move empty carriers back z36.  Build enough infantry to defend Tokyo but maybe save some money so next turn you can airstrike him and land on a batch of new carriers you will mobilize in z6.  And if he forgets to put a blocker in your way you can sink your 3 carriers from z26 first and then 6 planes; survivors will land on the new carriers.  If there’s a blocker you sink that to make the 3 carriers valid landing spots.  That’s called being a jerk.  :-)

EDIT: now that I think of it, you could build the shan airbase and mobilize a destroyer in z6.  If he fails to remove his carriers when attacking the destroyer, the kamikazes strike the carriers and if they are damaged the planes crash.  NOW think about that airstrike LOL

Hard to know what’s right without seeing your board, but taking out India is pretty good even if you are being convoyed.

[rmcbride]

@Eggman:

@El:

Seems like a tough hold for Yunnan on J2 because the Chinese get the backup forces for each turn & drop them all into Szechuan couple with the inf & figtr they already have there it just becomes a trade back & forth for the 1st few rounds anyway, unless I’m missing something here about what I should be doing with who?�
I hear you on "no DOW until hit Calcutta & sailing past the blockers, but w/ 6-TT’s per Variance’s plan running from Japan to sz36 to 38-39 I guess that would change Varianc’s play by play a little bit in that I’m going to have to keep good protection ships w/ those loaded TT’s so that the “not @ war” yet UK doesn’t get temped @ an unprovoked DOW & take them out.� It’s doable, but I was trying to follow his plan here.�
Any other thoughts?

Not having reviewed the whole plan myself,You can review the whole plan layout, play by play. on the March 1st thread I posted “J3 / J4 India Crush?” Variance can probably do a better job of tweaking it for you.  I’m not holding Variance liable for my inadequate use of then plan he posted, just wanted to know what I missed, or how I got it wrong? Your ability to hold Yunnan matters a lot depending on how many men have been lost by Japan and China fighting over it.  If you are skipping taking Shan State, then J2 it is not uncommon to use the Japanese air force on an unsupported attack on Szechuan just to eliminate the Chinese pile that might be there.   I did use all the air units I had available from Kwangsi to hit the Chinese in 2 or 3 SE Chinese territories & lost 3-fightrs in the doing on J2, but I don’t think I hit Szechuan , was involved in taking the front liners only & then Szechuan retook Yunnan on C2.  If you’re playing table-top and don’t have access to a battle calculator to give you a reasonable prediction on how many planes you might use in that kind of attack, Is there another way to use a battle Calc other than on-line? you’ll have to use your own judgement on what to do.  If the Chinese went all-in trying to liberate Yunnan C1 and the Chinese Fighter landed in Burma, then you should feel pretty safe hitting Szechuan.  If they kept the Fighter there and used a minimal force to hit Yunnan, then it will be its most dangerous, but if you already have all 20+ Japanese planes in range to hit Szechuan J2 as it is, you are still likely to wipe out the stack on your first round of rolling regardless of what they do there.  Forget now exactly which territories I het on J2 with my planes, but they were all SE China, & not Szechuan.

Allied responses are limited.  If they DoW UK2, they could take possibly take Yunnan, but this means sending away units that can’t defend Calcutta when you attack.  You’ll have (possibly) your 3 TTs + 3 Fighter/TAC pairs plus 2 Bombers that might still be able to take Calcutta depending on what he has there on defense.  If you’re worried, then just retake Yunnan J3 and attack Calcutta J4 when you have even more material available.  The UK DoW now gives you the breathing space from the US that you need to stretch things out another turn if you need to play it safer.  In the meantime spend J3 cleaning out the Allied ships in the area and start taking SE Asia territory (while making sure any troops you use will still be in range of hitting Calcutta J4). I’ll have to add this last one to my strategy for next time I try this.  But as for now, am I screwed in the Pacific or is there still a way out of this???

[rmcbride]

I really wanted to do the J3–take India & not have to worry about anything coming from there again, to be the proverbial—thorn in my side (thats what my original post for help with the J3 Crush thing was all about.  Then wanted to take DEI & start pushing the Anzac’s & US on my terms.  Not fighting this attrition battle & running for defense from behind with the Allies on the offense & pushing me.

This is where I thought this was heading with this sort of offense from Japan–take out the Chinese & UK fronts while the US was out of it & the Anzac hadn’t had time or resources to do much, then only fight on my terms w/ the US & Anzac on two Pacific fronts & maybe chip away @ the Russians if I wanted to help germany a little?

The way this has turned out, however, is by J2 I am now @ war w/all allies & have 5-fronts to still to deal with & fighting a war of attrition & defense.  Seems like the same ole Axis games where the Axis are always fighting a war of attrition & on defense.  I know this is the way it was in history, but I was hoping for a little different w/ a new game thats suppose to be slanted towards the Axis anyway, new rules that have been reworked 3-4 times & some killer new strategies that I hadn’t tried before?

I’m just a novice that has been playing this game on & off, mostly off, for the past 25 years–so I haven’t had the dedicated time to work up alot of these 3-4-5 move strategies like some of the dedicated Veterans here.  So I guess forgive my poor applications of some of these strategies, they all seem good & I’m sure work w/ the right set of circumstances & responses.  I guess I’ll just have to play more to practice more.

Boy, wont my wife like that one  :x  But I know my Kids & I will.  Thanx again all for help & posts & keep them coming.  :-)