Submarine FAQ Question

[Krieghund]

I’m going to let you guys sort this out among yourselves so I can see if the wording of this FAQ is adequate.  I’ll monitor the discussion and step back in if it starts to go south.

I do want to address this, though:

@WILD:

a) Does it sub stall your tpt in the combat move if you attack w/DD, and both ships are stuck there regardless of the out come? (I would think this is right, at least its what happened in the past)

This is incorrect.  Subs never block movement.  Stopping to attack a sub with one ship does not keep another from moving through the sea zone.  Combat doesn’t begin until the Conduct Combat phase, so movement through the sea zone is still free even if you’re attacking the sub.

[moompix]

WILD BILL Wrote: (my responses in blue)

Scenario: You have a DD at a naval base sz#1 (gets 3 moves) There is a tpt in the sz#2 next to it (no NB gets 2 moves). You move the DD 1 space into sz #2 (paired up DD & tpt). You now move both DD & tpt 1 space into sz #3 that has 1 enemy sub.

Things you can do at this time to avoid the sub sneak attack on your tpt.
A) Keep both DD & tpt in sz#3, you could either keep them floating or offload for amp assault (if coastal). Correct, the sub can’t attack.
B) Move both DD & tpt 1 more space to sz #4 (both units would be at their max movement) Correct, the sub can’t attack.
C) Attack the sub in sz #3 w/DD (see below) If the transport stays, then the sub can’t attack. If the transport attempts to move to another sea zone, it is moving through unaccompanied (the same surface warship has to be with it for the transport’s entire move), so the sub may fire. Making a combat move against the sub does not stop the attack, only accompanying the transport for its entire move stops the attack in the movement phase, what’s going to occur in a later phase doesn’t change this.

Things you can’t do:
D) Split up your 2 units by placing DD in sz #4, and tpt in sz #5. Correct, the transport wasn’t accompanied for its entire move, so it was not considered to be accompanied when it moved trough the subs sea zone, the sub can attack.
E) Leave your tpt in sz #3, and move your DD to sz #4. (even if you bring in a replacement escort from a different sz at the same time) Incorrect. This prevents the attack. The transport was accompanied for its entire move. Once the transport is done moving the warship is free to move where ever it wants. Look at it this way the transports have moved into port or to the shore they are now safe for the time being. However, they are dead, if another fleet doesn’t come by to protect them from the subs that will be coming to attack on their turn.
F) Leave the DD in sz#3 (to patrol for subs) and move the tpt alone to sz#4 (not 100% on this one). From what I gathered the DD would have to have been there at the beginning of the turn, not moved there. Correct, the sub can attack, for the same reason as C above. Also, the warship starting in the same sea zone as the sub, and staying there patrolling, doesn’t stop the attack in this updated answer. whether the transport is accompanied during its movement or not is all the matters now.

Things that need answers:
C) Attack the sub w/DD (from above):

a) Does it sub stall your tpt in the combat move if you attack w/DD, and both ships are stuck there regardless of the out come? (I would think this is right, at least its what happened in the past) It doesn’t stall it, but the sub can shoot at the transport, if it tries to continue moving without the same ship that was accompanying it at the start of its move.
b) Does this nullify the sneak attack and allow your tpt(s) to move safely to the next sz alone?  If it does work that way you could tie up 4-5 subs w/one DD allowing safe passage (doesn’t sound right) It doesn’t.

**Also if you came in with a CR as the escort the sub could submerge in the attack before the battle. If it submerges what happens? Can the tpt continue on safely? (I would think not because all movement stops if there’s a battle attempt). I would think that if a sub submerges in combat it would not get pop shots in non combat, allowing tpts to move through alone safely in non combat, but I’m not sure anymore. The sub doesn’t choose to submerge until the conduct combat phase. The transport has to continue on accompanied by the same warship, that is what prevents the attack. What the sub does in the combat phase doesn’t affect whether a transport is considered to be accompanied during the non-combat phase or not. If a transport tries to move into or through a space containing an enemy sub, and it didn’t make its complete move, start to finish, accompanied by a specific surface warship, the sub gets to shoot at it, no matter what else is, or might be, going on in the sea zone.

[moompix]

The question:
A transport has just moved into a sea zone containing an enemy sub, can the sub make this special attack?

Ignore everything else that is happening, or might happen, and answer the following question. it’s all that matters:

Did the transport start its move, from the very beginning, with a specific surface warship, and will the transport be with that same warship until the transport has stopped moving?

If the answer is yes, the sub can not make the attack, regardless of what else is happening.

If the answer is no, the sub can make the attack, regardless of what else is happening.

---

A note about Destroyers:

Destroyers don’t have a special power to negate this sub attack, that is different from any other surface warship. (check the list of abilities they counter) They don’t stop it just by simply being in the sea zone with the submarine.

[Col. Flagg]

So, the example stated above was if the warship started in a naval base, the transport was next to the NB sea zone, and the submarine was next to the transport sea zone, and you guys went through all the scenarios.

Consider this scenario: the transport and warship started together in a naval base, and the submarine was in the sea zone next to the naval base.  If the warship and transport move into the sub’s zone together (move 1), move out of the sub’s zone together (move 2), and then split up (move 3), the submarine would get a shot even though they are well out of it’s range?  It simplifies I suppose, but makes little sense.

I was about to say that no unit has had this power of controlling adjacent zones, but then I remembered Battle of the Bulge where units had zones of control.  But, is applying the small scale battle rules to the large scale war rules make sense?

So, what about “it’s (the transport’s) entire move through submarine patrolled sea zones.”

[moompix]

@Col.:

Consider this scenario: the transport and warship started together in a naval base, and the submarine was in the sea zone next to the naval base.  If the warship and transport move into the sub’s zone together (move 1), move out of the sub’s zone together (move 2), and then split up (move 3), the submarine would get a shot even though they are well out of it’s range?  It simplifies I suppose, but makes little sense.

It makes sense, from a realism perceptive. I know that’s not always relevant in a game this abstract, but anyways. If transports suspect they are in danger of being attacked, they aren’t going to leave port without an escort. In real life, they don’t know for sure that there aren’t subs a few miles away. They aren’t moving at all, until they have some protection. And then once they are moving, they don’t know that the coast is 100% clear now that they left that area back there, they want to be protected until they have arrived at their final destination.

In short if a navy is going to be protecting its transports, it will do it from start to finish, not just in the areas it thinks subs are most likely to be lurking.

[kcdzim]

@moompix:

@Col.:

Consider this scenario: the transport and warship started together in a naval base, and the submarine was in the sea zone next to the naval base.  If the warship and transport move into the sub’s zone together (move 1), move out of the sub’s zone together (move 2), and then split up (move 3), the submarine would get a shot even though they are well out of it’s range?  It simplifies I suppose, but makes little sense.

It makes sense, from a realism perceptive. I know that’s not always relevant in a game this abstract, but anyways. If transports suspect they are in danger of being attacked, they aren’t going to leave port without an escort. In real life they don’t know for sure that there aren’t subs a few miles away, they aren’t moving at all until they have some protection. And then once they are moving, they don’t know that the coast is 100% clear now that they left that area back there, they want to be protected until they have arrived at their final destination.

In short if a navy is going to be protect its transports, it will almost always do it from start to finish, not just in the areas it thinks subs are most likely to be.

Agreed.  plus it’s simpler.

However, if the transports original move was a combat move nothing is stopping you from moving that final seazone separate from the transport in noncombat if there was no naval battle in that final zone (or it didn’t bombard).  If you started at a naval base the warship should retain its final movement point through noncombat.  At least, that’s my understanding of movement rules based on interpretations of the physical game and computer movement rules.

[Col. Flagg]

“However, if the transports original move was a combat move nothing is stopping you from moving that final seazone separate from the transport in noncombat if there was no naval battle in that final zone”

That’s against the rules, I believe.  Combat moves must result in combat, so if the transport is moving during the Combat Move Phase, it must be either performing an amphibious assault (which ends its movement) or there must be combat in the sea zone it moves to, which ends its movement.

It just seems a lot of power is being given to a 6 IPC unit: to be able to control what a unit does outside of the zone it is occupying (because no one will risk a free shot at 2 on a loaded transport).  Battleships and cruisers can bombard into adjacent land zones, but that is little compared to restricting movement all around its sea zone.

[kcdzim]

@Col.:

“However, if the transports original move was a combat move nothing is stopping you from moving that final seazone separate from the transport in noncombat if there was no naval battle in that final zone”

That’s against the rules, I believe.  Combat moves must result in combat, so if the transport is moving during the Combat Move Phase, it must be either performing an amphibious assault (which ends its movement) or there must be combat in the sea zone it moves to, which ends its movement.

It just seems a lot of power is being given to a 6 IPC unit: to be able to control what a unit does outside of the zone it is occupying (because no one will risk a free shot at 2 on a loaded transport).  Battleships and cruisers can bombard into adjacent land zones, but that is little compared to restricting movement all around its sea zone.

While I can’t say for certain that TripleA complies with all movement rules (it certainly breaks them with blitzing tank rules) both that and Game table allow a unit to move during both assuming it has spaces left.  In addition, you CAN move planes and warships to a seazone during combat even if combat won’t occur (to discourage scrambling for example).

Further, destroyers do not participate in combat in an amphibious assault if there’s no unit in the seazone or no scrambling, so what you’re saying would prohibit a destroyer moving with the transport.  Planes keep their remaining spaces, why wouldn’t the destroyer?

It’s always been my understanding that any move that would result in combat had to be made during a combat move, but not that a combat move MUST result in combat.

[moompix]

@kcdzim:

However, if the transports original move was a combat move nothing is stopping you from moving that final seazone separate from the transport in noncombat if there was no naval battle in that final zone (or it didn’t bombard).  If you started at a naval base the warship should retain its final movement point through noncombat.  At least, that’s my understanding of movement rules based on interpretations of the physical game and computer movement rules.

~~I say just add accompanying warships to the list of exceptions to the rule about combat moves resulting in actual combat.

If a warship accompanies a transport that is making a combat move, the warship can complete its movement even though it might not result in combat.~~

[Krieghund]

There are a few exceptions, but most combat moves must result in combat.  Those exceptions aside, a transport will not be moving in combat movement unless it’s doing an amphibious assault.  If it is doing so, other ships may move along with it in order to support that assault, whether to fight the preliminary sea battle or to provide supporting bombardment.  If there is a chance of defending air units scrambling, ships and/or planes may move along with the transports in order to deal with that eventuality.

In any case, no land or sea unit may move in both combat and noncombat movement.  Only air units may do that.

[moompix]

Can you make what would normally be a non-combat move with a transport, during the combat move phase, so that it can be accompanied by a surface warship which is making a combat move?

Scenario:
A transport wants to move troops from one friendly territory to another friendly territory, but has to end its move in a sea zone with an enemy sub. A fleet of friendly warships is going to pass through/start in the transport’s sea zone, move through the sub’s sea zone, and then move on to attack an enemy fleet in a sea zone beyond. Can the transport be moved now, so that it doesn’t have to make an unprotected move later?

The answer is no, thanks to Krieghund for answering it before it was even posted. Now that’s quick.

[moompix]

@Krieghund:

There are a few exceptions, but most combat moves must result in combat.  Those exceptions aside, a transport will not be moving in combat movement unless it’s doing an amphibious assault.  If it is doing so, other ships may move along with it in order to support that assault, whether to fight the preliminary sea battle or to provide supporting bombardment.  If there is a chance of defending air units scrambling, ships and/or planes may move along with the transports in order to deal with that eventuality.

In any case, no land or sea unit may move in both combat and noncombat movement.  Only air units may do that.

So, this means any warship that accompanies a transport to protect it from subs, during the combat move phase, has to end its move in the same sea zone as the transport, and may not move on to another sea zone to participate in a different attack, right?

This won’t tie up a whole fleet though, because you only need to assign one of the surface warships to accompany the transport. The rest of the fleet could make a separate combat move that attacks the sea zone beyond.

[WILD BILL]

@moompix:

@Col.:

Consider this scenario: the transport and warship started together in a naval base, and the submarine was in the sea zone next to the naval base.  If the warship and transport move into the sub’s zone together (move 1), move out of the sub’s zone together (move 2), and then split up (move 3), the submarine would get a shot even though they are well out of it’s range?  It simplifies I suppose, but makes little sense.

It makes sense, from a realism perceptive. I know that’s not always relevant in a game this abstract, but anyways. If transports suspect they are in danger of being attacked, they aren’t going to leave port without an escort. In real life they don’t know for sure that there aren’t subs a few miles away, they aren’t moving at all until they have some protection. And then once they are moving, they don’t know that the coast is 100% clear now that they left that area back there, they want to be protected until they have arrived at their final destination.

In short if a navy is going to be protect its transports, it will almost always do it from start to finish, not just in the areas it thinks subs are most likely to be.

This is a stretch for even this sneak attack rule . Your already allowing the sub (a $6 unit) to attack a transport in its sz (in the enemies turn), your also basically extending its range into the next sz (w/o moving) to allow an attack if the tpt doesn’t pair up in a prior sz, or separates from its escort after it leaves (giving this $6 unit control over 3 sz’s). Now you can also fire your one shot 2 sz away. That can’t be right!!!

I understand how this rule comes into play. I think that protecting your tpt’s should be a top priority. I can see the logic behind escorting your tpt’s from start to finish. This rule is becoming a monster though. Most players will not get it, or will think they understand, but will still get parts wrong. I’m not sure its possible to word it w/o creating confusion. There will need to be several Q & A in the FAQ to cover the many before and after scenarios. I have heard Larry say that if you make rules to complicated it takes the fun out of the game. This may be one of those times that politically correct should take a back seat to ease of game-play. I will hold back any further judgment until I see what Krieghund puts together. He does have a way with words, and should get a raise if he pulls this one off.

[WILD BILL]

@Krieghund:

I do want to address this, though:

@WILD:

a) Does it sub stall your tpt in the combat move if you attack w/DD, and both ships are stuck there regardless of the out come? (I would think this is right, at least its what happened in the past)

This is incorrect.  Subs never block movement.  Stopping to attack a sub with one ship does not keep another from moving through the sea zone.  Combat doesn’t begin until the Conduct Combat phase, so movement through the sea zone is still free even if you’re attacking the sub.

Yea my bad, thanks for setting me straight K. I knew how that worked, just had a brain fart while posting.

Back to the topic at hand, it is possible for one sub to be involved in 3 different battles in the same enemies turn. If a DD & tpt come into the subs sz together (started same sz) no problem so far. The transport wants to continue to the next sz to meet up with another fleet for an ampib, but the DD is going to stay behind and engage the sub (wants to clear sz for non combat moves or convoy’s).
1st battle-The sub would get one shot @ 2 at the tpt (because it moved w/o escort leaving sz) in the combat move phase.
2nd battle- sub gets its def roll(s) @1 in combat phase (say DD is killed, but sub survives).
3rd battle- could this also occur (non combat move phase) if you move tpt through subs sz w/o proper escort, because you failed to clear the sz in the earlier battle.

**I know the sub gets one shot @2, I’m not clear if it gets that one shot in each of the move phases (combat move & non combat move), or is it one or the other?

**If the sub submerges in the combat phase would it be able to fire at a tpt in the non combat phase?
Again if eligible based on shots it gets in the movement phases from above.

This seems like a lot of power for a 6 IPC unit to have. Its not that it possibly gets to fire in all 3 phases, that’s actually pretty cool. Its more that it gets to dictate the movement in surrounding sz.

[Variable]

@WILD:

I will hold back any further judgment until I see what Krieghund puts together. He does have a way with words, and should get a raise if he pulls this one off.

Second that.

Please keep subs simple. They shouldn’t rule the sea (that much).

[Krieghund]

You’ve seen it.  This is the final version, unless you guys can find a situation it doesn’t cover.  The purpose of this discussion at this point is to see if the wording covers all situations, not to question the validity of the rule itself.

[moompix]

I think what’s a little fuzzy now, is how many times a sub can make this special attack during the enemy’s turn.

Is it once during the entire turn?

Is it once per phase?

Is it once per group of transports moving through its sea zone?

Obviously, each sub only shoots once, when a single group of any number of transports moves through on their way to a specific sea zone. But, there could be two separate groups making two separate moves from different sea zones and/or to different sea zones.

[kcdzim]

@moompix:

I think what’s a little fuzzy now, is how many times a sub can make this special attack during the enemy’s turn.

Is it once during the entire turn?

Is it once per phase?

Is it once per group of transports moving through its sea zone?

Obviously, each sub only shoots once, when a single group of any number of transports moves through on their way to a specific sea zone. But, there could be two separate groups making two separate moves from different sea zones and/or to different sea zones.

That would be my only question as well.

For balance I would think one shot only per phase regardless of how many transports moved through in different routes each phase.  Other than the fact that you can leave a transport alone in the enemy subs seazone by continuing to move the warship, everything about this rule seems ok to me.

[moompix]

Once per phase could lead to the following:

A player moves a lone unloaded transport through a sea zone containing 5 enemy subs. The subs attack, most likely destroying the transport. That player now safely moves 5 fully loaded unaccompanied transports through the sea zone.

Of course, this may be the last game of A&A that player plays with that group, but still.

You could choose to not shoot at that first transport, obviously the player is trying to be sneaky, best wait for the juicier target.

What if the player tries to move them one at a time through the sea zone? as a way to try and insure only one can be destroyed, or as a way to make it so only one sub shoots at each transport. Lets say the player has 5 transports that might make a move through the sea zone containing 5 subs. He moves one. OK, he’s up to something, I’ll fire with just one sub. He moves another, I’ll fire with another sub. He moves a third, I’ll fire with my third sub. He doesn’t try to move any others through the sea zone. If he had moved them all at once, all 5 of the subs would have fired, making a kill more likely.

I don’t really expect the errata to try and cover this situation, though. I can take care of it myself, with a quick toss out the door.

[Krieghund]

Based on the wording of the rules and FAQ, what would you guess the answer is?