Submarine FAQ Question

[Krieghund]

The idea here is that in order to protect transports from sub attacks, they must have a dedicated escort.  Since a moving fleet (in reality) would have no idea exactly where enemy subs are, the transports must be escorted for their entire move in order for the escort to qualify as “dedicated”.

Please continue to pick this apart.  Your input has been valuable and appreciated.

[WILD BILL]

Re: Submarine FAQ Question
« Reply #43 on: January 30, 2010, 02:52:16 pm »
quote #1 from Krieghund:
Thanks for your feedback, guys.  This is what we’re currently considering:
Q.  Submarines can attack transports that move through their sea zone “unaccompanied by surface warships”.  Under exactly what conditions may subs attack moving transports?
A.  If at any time during a transport’s movement it finds itself in a sea zone with a submarine belonging to a power with which it is at war and there is no friendly surface warship in the sea zone belonging to a power that is at war with the enemy power, it may be fired upon.

Re: Submarine FAQ Question
« Reply #56 on: January 31, 2010, 05:46:09 pm »
quote #2 from Krieghund:
OK, we’re taking this thing in a different direction:

Q.  Submarines can attack transports that move through their sea zone “unaccompanied by surface warships”.  Under exactly what conditions do surface warships prevent sub attacks on moving transports?
A.  In order to prevent sub attacks, a transport or group of transports must make its entire move accompanied by a specific surface warship or group of surface warships.

These 2 post have entirely different meanings (or has that possibility).

The first one sounds like you can merge units into the sz that contains an enemy sub(s), and be protected.

The second (more recent) implies you must pair up at least one surface war ship w/transport(s) (could be already in same sz) prior to moving into a sz containing enemy sub(s). It also implies you must either stay in the sub(s) patrolled sz still paired (unless you attack sub) or exit into the same sz (still paired).  So if your transports have two destinations you would need to escorts. In reality we are talking about up to 3 sz here.

If you engage the sub and lose the battle (your escort is killed, and he still has 1 sub remaining) would you also lose your transports automatically, or would the sub get one shot @ 2 against your transports?

[kcdzim]

@WILD:

If you engage the sub and lose the battle (your escort is killed, and he still has 1 sub remaining) would you also lose your transports automatically, or would the sub get one shot @ 2 against your transports?

The sneak shot occurs during movement not combat, so if you would have already prevented any future sub sneak against transport movement by moving a warship with the transport in compliance with whatever the rules end up being (I’m very satisfied with the current rule because that’s a true escort, not meeting up to become one in dangerous waters).  Thus, if you then were battling the sub (instead of ignoring it) and your warship got torped, you have the option of retreating the transports (as you always do) and you would be able to do so without getting fired on again.

[moompix]

@Krieghund:

The idea here is that in order to protect transports from sub attacks, they must have a dedicated escort.  Since a moving fleet (in reality) would have no idea exactly where enemy subs are, the transports must be escorted for their entire move in order for the escort to qualify as “dedicated”.

Please continue to pick this apart.  Your input has been valuable and appreciated.

I’m fine with it, no matter how it ends up. But, why not require the surface warship to start with and stay with the transports?

As it is, the warship can move with the transport into the sub’s sea zone, leave the transport there, and then move on to make an attack in a different sea zone. Of course the transport is dead on the sub’s next turn, if other warships aren’t moved in to protect it.

[Krieghund]

@moompix:

I’m fine with it, no matter how it ends up. But, why not require the surface warship to start with and stay with the transports?

We wanted the transports to be escorted for their entire move, but leave the warships free to start or end in a different sea zone.

[kcdzim]

@Krieghund:

@moompix:

I’m fine with it, no matter how it ends up. But, why not require the surface warship to start with and stay with the transports?

We wanted the transports to be escorted for their entire move, but leave the warships free to start or end in a different sea zone.

And is it intentional that newly built transports at a naval base such as Japan would not be able to form convoys with forward based ships?  In this manner they could only form a convoy with an existing ship in Japan’s seazone, or a newly built warship (or only move one space while a neighboring warship moved into and then one space along side the transport)

I realize yours is a simplified rule, but to me it seems the intent is that an escort ship needs to move through the enemy subs seazone by way of the same seazone boundaries in the same order as the transport, whether in and out or in and remain there. If it does that then it’s can be an escort.  That provides an ability to wait for backup or take advantage of forward stationed ships with newly placed transports, but won’t allow any leapfrogging or splitting.

[Stoney229]

@Krieghund:

The idea here is that in order to protect transports from sub attacks, they must have a dedicated escort.  Since a moving fleet (in reality) would have no idea exactly where enemy subs are, the transports must be escorted for their entire move in order for the escort to qualify as “dedicated”.

Please continue to pick this apart.  Your input has been valuable and appreciated.

A simple rule is still confusing and harder to remember if it is counter-intuitive, and the player does not understand the reasoning behind it.  It took me a while to realize that the reason an escort can’t just meet the trn in the sub’s sz because you don’t actually know where the subs are until you run into them.  They’re like the Schrodinger cat, which is BOTH dead AND alive UNTIL you open the box and see it as one or the other.  The enemy subs are in EVERY sz until you actually look and see if it is or isn’t in a particular sz.  As simple as it is, the rule is near perfect by this reasoning (as far as I can see it).  I think would be more fitting if the transport were safe as long as is never unaccompanied by a friendly surface warship throughout its move (even if its escort in it’s second and third sz is different from the one in its first), but maybe trying to allow for that would be more complicated than it’s worth.

[Krieghund]

@kcdzim:

And is it intentional that newly built transports at a naval base such as Japan would not be able to form convoys with forward based ships?

Yes.  Having enemy subs wandering around in your supply lines is a bad thing.

@Stoney229:

I think would be more fitting if the transport were safe as long as is never unaccompanied by a friendly surface warship throughout its move (even if its escort in it’s second and third sz is different from the one in its first), but maybe trying to allow for that would be more complicated than it’s worth.

Indeed, it would.

[WILD BILL]

@Krieghund:

We wanted the transports to be escorted for their entire move, but leave the warships free to start or end in a different sea zone.

Ok I’m trying to see the light here, please indulge (sz are just hypothetical and DD could be any surface war ship)

Scenario: You have a DD at a naval base sz#1 (gets 3 moves) There is a tpt in the sz#2 next to it (no NB gets 2 moves). You move the DD 1 space into sz #2 (paired up DD & tpt). You now move both DD & tpt 1 space into sz #3 that has 1 enemy sub.

Things you can do at this time to avoid the sub sneak attack on your tpt.
A) Keep both DD & tpt in sz#3, you could either keep them floating or offload for amp assault (if coastal).
B) Move both DD & tpt 1 more space to sz #4 (both units would be at their max movement)
C) Attack the sub in sz #3 w/DD (see below)

Things you can’t do:
D) Split up your 2 units by placing DD in sz #4, and tpt in sz #5.
E) Leave your tpt in sz #3, and move your DD to sz #4. (even if you bring in a replacement escort from a different sz at the same time)
F) Leave the DD in sz#3 (to patrol for subs) and move the tpt alone to sz#4 (not 100% on this one). From what I gathered the DD would have to have been there at the beginning of the turn, not moved there.

Things that need answers:
C) Attack the sub w/DD (from above):

a) Does it sub stall your tpt in the combat move if you attack w/DD, and both ships are stuck there regardless of the out come? (I would think this is right, at least its what happened in the past)
b) Does this nullify the sneak attack and allow your tpt(s) to move safely to the next sz alone?  If it does work that way you could tie up 4-5 subs w/one DD allowing safe passage (doesn’t sound right)

**Also if you came in with a CR as the escort the sub could submerge in the attack before the battle. If it submerges what happens? Can the tpt continue on safely? (I would think not because all movement stops if there’s a battle attempt). I would think that if a sub submerges in combat it would not get pop shots in non combat, allowing tpts to move through alone safely in non combat, but I’m not sure anymore.

[kcdzim]

@WILD:

Ok I’m trying to see the light here, please indulge (sz are just hypothetical and DD could be any surface war ship)

Scenario: You have a DD at a naval base sz#1 (gets 3 moves) There is a tpt in the sz#2 next to it (no NB gets 2 moves). You move the DD 1 space into sz #2 (paired up DD & tpt). You now move both DD & tpt 1 space into sz #3 that has 1 enemy sub.

Things you can do at this time to avoid the sub sneak attack on your tpt.
A) Keep both DD & tpt in sz#3, you could either keep them floating or offload for amp assault (if coastal).
B) Move both DD & tpt 1 more space to sz #4 (both units would be at their max movement)
C) Attack the sub in sz #3 w/DD (see below)

Things you can’t do:
D) Split up your 2 units by placing DD in sz #4, and tpt in sz #5.
E) Leave your tpt in sz #3, and move your DD to sz #4. (even if you bring in a replacement escort from a different sz at the same time)
F) Leave the DD in sz#3 (to patrol for subs) and move the tpt alone to sz#4 (not 100% on this one). From what I gathered the DD would have to have been there at the beginning of the turn, not moved there.

Things that need answers:
C) Attack the sub w/DD (from above):

a) Does it sub stall your tpt in the combat move if you attack w/DD, and both ships are stuck there regardless of the out come? (I would think this is right, at least its what happened in the past)
b) Does this nullify the sneak attack and allow your tpt(s) to move safely to the next sz alone?  If it does work that way you could tie up 4-5 subs w/one DD allowing safe passage (doesn’t sound right)

**Also if you came in with a CR as the escort the sub could submerge in the attack before the battle. If it submerges what happens? Can the tpt continue on safely? (I would think not because all movement stops if there’s a battle attempt). I would think that if a sub submerges in combat it would not get pop shots in non combat, allowing tpts to move through alone safely in non combat, but I’m not sure anymore.

My understanding is that the transport and DD are not tied together, the transport simply depends on it for defense.  If you stop the DD for combat at the end of the combat move phase, then the sub gets a free shot at a roll of 2 during the combat move AND then engages your DD at a roll of 1.  Your DD either moves with the transport, ignoring the sub, or else the sub takes it shots on the transport while your DD searches for it (and finds it eventually at the end of the combat move phase upon which it’s the combat phase and you start rollin dice).

As far as I can tell, the sub sneak hit on transports is NOT a combat attack, it occurs during the combat MOVE phase, similar to Kamikazes which explains the hit on a 2 instead of a 1.

If the transport EVER moves without that escort it will be fired on in that sub zone.

However…

Item E is incorrect.  Per the wording of the new rule you CAN continue to move the DD to seazone 4 or 5 and leave the transport in seazone 3.  The destroyer went with the tranny for every move but is free to end in a different seazone after the transport completed its move.  But if the sub doesn’t die or other friendly ships show up by other routes, the transports are going to the bottom of the sea on the subs next turn unless otherwise destroyed.  This effectively allows you to pass the transport to another convoy.

[Krieghund]

I’m going to let you guys sort this out among yourselves so I can see if the wording of this FAQ is adequate.  I’ll monitor the discussion and step back in if it starts to go south.

I do want to address this, though:

@WILD:

a) Does it sub stall your tpt in the combat move if you attack w/DD, and both ships are stuck there regardless of the out come? (I would think this is right, at least its what happened in the past)

This is incorrect.  Subs never block movement.  Stopping to attack a sub with one ship does not keep another from moving through the sea zone.  Combat doesn’t begin until the Conduct Combat phase, so movement through the sea zone is still free even if you’re attacking the sub.

[moompix]

WILD BILL Wrote: (my responses in blue)

Scenario: You have a DD at a naval base sz#1 (gets 3 moves) There is a tpt in the sz#2 next to it (no NB gets 2 moves). You move the DD 1 space into sz #2 (paired up DD & tpt). You now move both DD & tpt 1 space into sz #3 that has 1 enemy sub.

Things you can do at this time to avoid the sub sneak attack on your tpt.
A) Keep both DD & tpt in sz#3, you could either keep them floating or offload for amp assault (if coastal). Correct, the sub can’t attack.
B) Move both DD & tpt 1 more space to sz #4 (both units would be at their max movement) Correct, the sub can’t attack.
C) Attack the sub in sz #3 w/DD (see below) If the transport stays, then the sub can’t attack. If the transport attempts to move to another sea zone, it is moving through unaccompanied (the same surface warship has to be with it for the transport’s entire move), so the sub may fire. Making a combat move against the sub does not stop the attack, only accompanying the transport for its entire move stops the attack in the movement phase, what’s going to occur in a later phase doesn’t change this.

Things you can’t do:
D) Split up your 2 units by placing DD in sz #4, and tpt in sz #5. Correct, the transport wasn’t accompanied for its entire move, so it was not considered to be accompanied when it moved trough the subs sea zone, the sub can attack.
E) Leave your tpt in sz #3, and move your DD to sz #4. (even if you bring in a replacement escort from a different sz at the same time) Incorrect. This prevents the attack. The transport was accompanied for its entire move. Once the transport is done moving the warship is free to move where ever it wants. Look at it this way the transports have moved into port or to the shore they are now safe for the time being. However, they are dead, if another fleet doesn’t come by to protect them from the subs that will be coming to attack on their turn.
F) Leave the DD in sz#3 (to patrol for subs) and move the tpt alone to sz#4 (not 100% on this one). From what I gathered the DD would have to have been there at the beginning of the turn, not moved there. Correct, the sub can attack, for the same reason as C above. Also, the warship starting in the same sea zone as the sub, and staying there patrolling, doesn’t stop the attack in this updated answer. whether the transport is accompanied during its movement or not is all the matters now.

Things that need answers:
C) Attack the sub w/DD (from above):

a) Does it sub stall your tpt in the combat move if you attack w/DD, and both ships are stuck there regardless of the out come? (I would think this is right, at least its what happened in the past) It doesn’t stall it, but the sub can shoot at the transport, if it tries to continue moving without the same ship that was accompanying it at the start of its move.
b) Does this nullify the sneak attack and allow your tpt(s) to move safely to the next sz alone?  If it does work that way you could tie up 4-5 subs w/one DD allowing safe passage (doesn’t sound right) It doesn’t.

**Also if you came in with a CR as the escort the sub could submerge in the attack before the battle. If it submerges what happens? Can the tpt continue on safely? (I would think not because all movement stops if there’s a battle attempt). I would think that if a sub submerges in combat it would not get pop shots in non combat, allowing tpts to move through alone safely in non combat, but I’m not sure anymore. The sub doesn’t choose to submerge until the conduct combat phase. The transport has to continue on accompanied by the same warship, that is what prevents the attack. What the sub does in the combat phase doesn’t affect whether a transport is considered to be accompanied during the non-combat phase or not. If a transport tries to move into or through a space containing an enemy sub, and it didn’t make its complete move, start to finish, accompanied by a specific surface warship, the sub gets to shoot at it, no matter what else is, or might be, going on in the sea zone.

[moompix]

The question:
A transport has just moved into a sea zone containing an enemy sub, can the sub make this special attack?

Ignore everything else that is happening, or might happen, and answer the following question. it’s all that matters:

Did the transport start its move, from the very beginning, with a specific surface warship, and will the transport be with that same warship until the transport has stopped moving?

If the answer is yes, the sub can not make the attack, regardless of what else is happening.

If the answer is no, the sub can make the attack, regardless of what else is happening.

---

A note about Destroyers:

Destroyers don’t have a special power to negate this sub attack, that is different from any other surface warship. (check the list of abilities they counter) They don’t stop it just by simply being in the sea zone with the submarine.

[Col. Flagg]

So, the example stated above was if the warship started in a naval base, the transport was next to the NB sea zone, and the submarine was next to the transport sea zone, and you guys went through all the scenarios.

Consider this scenario: the transport and warship started together in a naval base, and the submarine was in the sea zone next to the naval base.  If the warship and transport move into the sub’s zone together (move 1), move out of the sub’s zone together (move 2), and then split up (move 3), the submarine would get a shot even though they are well out of it’s range?  It simplifies I suppose, but makes little sense.

I was about to say that no unit has had this power of controlling adjacent zones, but then I remembered Battle of the Bulge where units had zones of control.  But, is applying the small scale battle rules to the large scale war rules make sense?

So, what about “it’s (the transport’s) entire move through submarine patrolled sea zones.”

[moompix]

@Col.:

Consider this scenario: the transport and warship started together in a naval base, and the submarine was in the sea zone next to the naval base.  If the warship and transport move into the sub’s zone together (move 1), move out of the sub’s zone together (move 2), and then split up (move 3), the submarine would get a shot even though they are well out of it’s range?  It simplifies I suppose, but makes little sense.

It makes sense, from a realism perceptive. I know that’s not always relevant in a game this abstract, but anyways. If transports suspect they are in danger of being attacked, they aren’t going to leave port without an escort. In real life, they don’t know for sure that there aren’t subs a few miles away. They aren’t moving at all, until they have some protection. And then once they are moving, they don’t know that the coast is 100% clear now that they left that area back there, they want to be protected until they have arrived at their final destination.

In short if a navy is going to be protecting its transports, it will do it from start to finish, not just in the areas it thinks subs are most likely to be lurking.

[kcdzim]

@moompix:

@Col.:

Consider this scenario: the transport and warship started together in a naval base, and the submarine was in the sea zone next to the naval base.  If the warship and transport move into the sub’s zone together (move 1), move out of the sub’s zone together (move 2), and then split up (move 3), the submarine would get a shot even though they are well out of it’s range?  It simplifies I suppose, but makes little sense.

It makes sense, from a realism perceptive. I know that’s not always relevant in a game this abstract, but anyways. If transports suspect they are in danger of being attacked, they aren’t going to leave port without an escort. In real life they don’t know for sure that there aren’t subs a few miles away, they aren’t moving at all until they have some protection. And then once they are moving, they don’t know that the coast is 100% clear now that they left that area back there, they want to be protected until they have arrived at their final destination.

In short if a navy is going to be protect its transports, it will almost always do it from start to finish, not just in the areas it thinks subs are most likely to be.

Agreed.  plus it’s simpler.

However, if the transports original move was a combat move nothing is stopping you from moving that final seazone separate from the transport in noncombat if there was no naval battle in that final zone (or it didn’t bombard).  If you started at a naval base the warship should retain its final movement point through noncombat.  At least, that’s my understanding of movement rules based on interpretations of the physical game and computer movement rules.

[Col. Flagg]

“However, if the transports original move was a combat move nothing is stopping you from moving that final seazone separate from the transport in noncombat if there was no naval battle in that final zone”

That’s against the rules, I believe.  Combat moves must result in combat, so if the transport is moving during the Combat Move Phase, it must be either performing an amphibious assault (which ends its movement) or there must be combat in the sea zone it moves to, which ends its movement.

It just seems a lot of power is being given to a 6 IPC unit: to be able to control what a unit does outside of the zone it is occupying (because no one will risk a free shot at 2 on a loaded transport).  Battleships and cruisers can bombard into adjacent land zones, but that is little compared to restricting movement all around its sea zone.

[kcdzim]

@Col.:

“However, if the transports original move was a combat move nothing is stopping you from moving that final seazone separate from the transport in noncombat if there was no naval battle in that final zone”

That’s against the rules, I believe.  Combat moves must result in combat, so if the transport is moving during the Combat Move Phase, it must be either performing an amphibious assault (which ends its movement) or there must be combat in the sea zone it moves to, which ends its movement.

It just seems a lot of power is being given to a 6 IPC unit: to be able to control what a unit does outside of the zone it is occupying (because no one will risk a free shot at 2 on a loaded transport).  Battleships and cruisers can bombard into adjacent land zones, but that is little compared to restricting movement all around its sea zone.

While I can’t say for certain that TripleA complies with all movement rules (it certainly breaks them with blitzing tank rules) both that and Game table allow a unit to move during both assuming it has spaces left.  In addition, you CAN move planes and warships to a seazone during combat even if combat won’t occur (to discourage scrambling for example).

Further, destroyers do not participate in combat in an amphibious assault if there’s no unit in the seazone or no scrambling, so what you’re saying would prohibit a destroyer moving with the transport.  Planes keep their remaining spaces, why wouldn’t the destroyer?

It’s always been my understanding that any move that would result in combat had to be made during a combat move, but not that a combat move MUST result in combat.

[moompix]

@kcdzim:

However, if the transports original move was a combat move nothing is stopping you from moving that final seazone separate from the transport in noncombat if there was no naval battle in that final zone (or it didn’t bombard).  If you started at a naval base the warship should retain its final movement point through noncombat.  At least, that’s my understanding of movement rules based on interpretations of the physical game and computer movement rules.

~~I say just add accompanying warships to the list of exceptions to the rule about combat moves resulting in actual combat.

If a warship accompanies a transport that is making a combat move, the warship can complete its movement even though it might not result in combat.~~

[Krieghund]

There are a few exceptions, but most combat moves must result in combat.  Those exceptions aside, a transport will not be moving in combat movement unless it’s doing an amphibious assault.  If it is doing so, other ships may move along with it in order to support that assault, whether to fight the preliminary sea battle or to provide supporting bombardment.  If there is a chance of defending air units scrambling, ships and/or planes may move along with the transports in order to deal with that eventuality.

In any case, no land or sea unit may move in both combat and noncombat movement.  Only air units may do that.