Submarine FAQ Question

[Stoney229]

@Krieghund:

Q.  Submarines can attack transports that move through their sea zone “unaccompanied by surface warships”.  Under exactly what conditions do friendly surface warships prevent sub attacks on moving transports?
A.  A surface warship that starts its movement along with one or more transports and moves with them will prevent sub attacks.  Also, friendly surface warships that were already in the enemy sub’s sea zone and do not move will prevent attacks on transports that move through or into the sea zone.

This seems strange.  If UK has a lone sub in z39, and I move a cruiser from sz37 to sz39, and a transport from sz42 to sz39, then the sub still gets a shot?  Or is the cruiser a “friendly surface warship that [was] already in the enemy sub’s sea zone and [did] not move”?  Either way, I feel like it could be worded different.  It sounds like these “friendly surface warships that were already in the enemy sub’s sea zone and do not move” are intended to be only ships that were in the sz prior to the combat move.  If that is the case (I would like to ask “why?”), I think it should say so, since it’s not really intuitive (to me), and the rule might therefore be interpreted as "friendly surface warships that exist in the enemy sub’s sea zone at the same time as the transport (since combat moves from different sea zones are in practice done separately and in an order) and do not necessarily move with the transport will prevent attacks on transports that move through or into the sea zone.

[Krieghund]

Simply arriving at or passing through a sea zone at the same time as the transport is not enough.  Either a dedicated effort to escort it (moving along with it) or patrolling the area that it will pass through (remaining in the sea zone and not moving) is required to protect a moving transport from a sub attack.

[dinosaur]

I can see that we are going to have to walk through the sub rules step by step to get this straight.  I reread the rules last evening and I was surprised at some of the subtle questions I missed.

First, it appears “defending” subs can shoot at unescorted transports.  This is a slight contradiction to the rule that says transports can ignore subs during an amphibious landing.  It appear the subs do get to make a single roll against the transports.  However, if I read the rules properly, these subs would only hit on a 1.

[MaherC]

lame.  p51’s didn’t take off from the same airstrips as b17’s yet they escorted them all the way to berlin and back.

you should be able to start a DD in sz4, an LC from 8, have them meet in 7 on their way to 6 and be protected from a sub in 7.  I can see if you want to say you  send the DD from 4 to 16 and the LC from 8 to 6 and while both are in 7 the DD cannot cover the LC.  Fine.  Big ocean, blah blah.  But if you are willing to have the DD move in both squares w/the LC…

I guess we are to assume that all these ships are sitting in the exact middle of the sz’s which they are in.

[Variable]

@dinosaur:

I can see that we are going to have to walk through the sub rules step by step to get this straight.  I reread the rules last evening and I was surprised at some of the subtle questions I missed.

First, it appears “defending” subs can shoot at unescorted transports.  This is a slight contradiction to the rule that says transports can ignore subs during an amphibious landing.  It appear the subs do get to make a single roll against the transports.  However, if I read the rules properly, these subs would only hit on a 1.

Actually they hit on a 2 even if defending in this case.

[dinosaur]

Variable, I understood the defending submarines to only be allowed to make this attack under the “Surprise Strike” rule.  This rule, written on page 16 of the rule book reads as follows:

Each attacking submarine conducting a Surprise Strike attack rolls one die.  Attacking submarines that roll a “2” or less score a hit.  After the attacking player has rolled for all attacking submarines, the defender chooses one sea unit (submarines cannot hit air units) for each hit scored and moves it behind the casualty strip.  (Note that undamaged capital ships that are hit only once are not removed.)

Then each defending submarine conducting a Surprise Strike attack rolls one die.  Defending submarines that roll a “1” score a hit.  After the defending player has rolled for all defending submarines, the attacker chooses one sea unit for each hit scored and removes it from play.  (Note, undamaged capital ships that are hit only once are not removed.)

Since the subs I spoke of are not on the attacker’s side (the side making active moves), I believe they are rolling for 1s and not 2s.  This is why I posted the scenario in order to begin working through the many possible misconceptions.

[Krieghund]

This is a special attack, not a normal combat.  The rules state that the subs attack on a 2 and get one shot only.

[dinosaur]

I will look for that rule.

[BadSpeller]

page 30>under ‘Does Not Block Enemy Movement’

[moompix]

@Krieghund:

Simply arriving at or passing through a sea zone at the same time as the transport is not enough.  Either a dedicated effort to escort it (moving along with it) or patrolling the area that it will pass through (remaining in the sea zone and not moving) is required to protect a moving transport from a sub attack.

Never mind. Saw the new errata. Looks good.

Thanks

[dinosaur]

Thanks Bad Speller.  I think the errata should cross reference this page to the rule I quoted above so it will be clear which rule applies when the situation comes up.  There is an earlier rule that says transports can unload (or something like that) even if there are enemy submarines present.  It needs to be noted that this unloading may occur only after the submarines have had a chance to kill the same transports.

[Col. Flagg]

Ok, so what if a warship moves into the zone the transport starts from and then moves with it into the zone the sub is, is it “escorted?”  And does the warship have to leave the sea zone with the transport to continue the escorting?

[Stoney229]

@Col.:

Ok, so what if a warship moves into the zone the transport starts from and then moves with it into the zone the sub is, is it “escorted?”  And does the warship have to leave the sea zone with the transport to continue the escorting?

@Krieghund:

Simply arriving at or passing through a sea zone at the same time as the transport is not enough.  Either a dedicated effort to escort it (moving along with it) or patrolling the area that it will pass through (remaining in the sea zone and not moving) is required to protect a moving transport from a sub attack.

Also, I’m still unclear with what Krieg has said here… it sounds a bit like you’re saying that a surface warship that ends it’s movement in the sub’s sz it counts as an escort?  even if it started in a different one from the trn?

[Krieghund]

@Col.:

Ok, so what if a warship moves into the zone the transport starts from and then moves with it into the zone the sub is, is it “escorted?”  And does the warship have to leave the sea zone with the transport to continue the escorting?

Yes to both.

@Stoney229:

Also, I’m still unclear with what Krieg has said here… it sounds a bit like you’re saying that a surface warship that ends it’s movement in the sub’s sz it counts as an escort?  even if it started in a different one from the trn?

No.  The warship must either:
a) accompany the transport for its entire move, or
b) have already been in the sub’s sea zone and not moved at all.

[WILD BILL]

Krieghund,
Let me start out by saying I like the new transport rules from AA50. The fact that your surface war ships must protect your transports, and not the other way around is a great addition to the game. I like the fact that in AA40 it goes one step further to also include enemy subs will get a pop shot at lone transports (one shot @2).
Three thing trouble me though:

1. Subs get that pop shot in non combat (emphasis on the term non combat) this was even stopped for air units flying over AA guns in non combat. Seems like you (creators) can’t make up your minds here. Pick one and stay with it.

2. The way you (creators) added extra layers of rules to define when a transport is escorted (not very Larry like by the way) is also going against the basic rules for movement in AA games. If you merge units (from two or more sz) into one sz, you always consider that as one fleet. You do not split your fleet in that same sz and fight two different battles from different directions. This even holds true for bombardment (another transport rule). The bombardment units (BB & CR) don’t have to start in the same sz as transports, they just have to end up in the same sz as the unloading transports (or one of them).

Further more say you have surface war ships starting out in the same sz as transports (definitely escorted at that time). You have a planned sea attack for those war ships (not including an amp assault). You do however want to use those transports (amp assault) in another battle with a smaller fleet going to a different sz. In the mist of all of this is a pair of enemy subs lurking in the direction of your planned amp assault. Why can you not pass the baton of escorting your transports to the other fleet. You (by this new rule) will not be allowed to merge your tpts, and smaller fleet into the sz containing a pair of enemy subs then move on 1 space safely. I guess you can’t even merge them together in an open sz then move into the sz w/enemy subs, as they did not start out together (but this I’m not sure about). I know that you could have sent a DD from the original fleet that the tprts came from, but you shouldn’t have to. Besides that same DD could be the difference of if you are successful in other battle. This really does go against all the basic movement rules established through the years.

3. Having to have been in the same sz as enemy subs to start (to patrol safe passage I guess), then being stuck there (easy prey) in the enemies turn is kinda off the wall as well. Can you at least move that ship during non combat once the tprt (moved through in combat) has left, or is it still stuck there.

I can see a thin line of thought behind this escorting from start to finish, but it is on rather thin ice IMO, and adds several layers of rules to an already complex game. You should be able to bring fleets together, and allow safe passage, or simply pass the escorting to another fleet. The later would just add another exception though, the first is more adoptable and easier to under stand.

I would even be on board with a rule that says any transport passing through a sz w/enemy subs can be attacked if there is no friendly DD in said sz. Where the DD came from shouldn’t have an impact as long as they were there at the same time. That at least would be consistent w/other rules and again easy to understand.

I don’t know how much the sub lurking rules will come to play, but I think there will be several marches to the rule book that will result in some heated battles (or people not doing it right because they didn’t catch it). A more simplistic rule (w/o this or that has to happen first) might be better.

Please reconsider these abnormalities before we are stuck with them.
Thanks WB

[WILD BILL]

@Krieghund:

@Col.:

Ok, so what if a warship moves into the zone the transport starts from and then moves with it into the zone the sub is, is it “escorted?”  And does the warship have to leave the sea zone with the transport to continue the escorting?

Yes to both.

This one though me a little until I realized that a surface war ship has 3 moves if it starts at a NB.
Still to confusing.

[Krieghund]

Thanks for your feedback, guys.  This is what we’re currently considering:

Q.  Submarines can attack transports that move through their sea zone “unaccompanied by surface warships”.  Under exactly what conditions may subs attack moving transports?
A.  If at any time during a transport’s movement it finds itself in a sea zone with a submarine belonging to a power with which it is at war and there is no friendly surface warship in the sea zone belonging to a power that is at war with the enemy power, it may be fired upon.

[moompix]

If a transport finds itself unprotected in a sea zone, with an enemy sub, at the start of its movement (it was built there last turn/just declared war)

Does the sub get to shoot, if the transport attempts to move out of the sea zone?

[Krieghund]

Since the transport is moving out of the sea zone (not into or through), the sub would not get to fire on it.

[WILD BILL]

Krieg,
That sounds much better (KISS), glad your reaching out to the community.