Thanks for your response wittmann. It seems we played the first game incorrectly then!
American split income?
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I think that it should not have split income.
The U.S. shouldn’t be forced to fight equally in both fronts.
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All I can say is that a good us player will be the most active player in the game. He will need to get up and walk from one side of the board to the
other every turn to play because the board will be so huge.So now we can get our exercise while we play A&A. This is good news.
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Jesus, I don’t see how it could be anything but a split economy; if the US has a peacetime/wartime footing like in AA1940Pac, 80 IPCs plopped down on either side of the US on any given turn is completely unbalancing (how is 8+ planes a turn remotely fair to the Axis players on either front?). Even with split incomes, it looks like it won’t be feasible for the Axis to win extended games simply due to the fact that the US will be banking TWO incomes for the Allied side once war is declared. That’s something any axis player would have a hard time chewing through, not to mention how EUS/WUS incomes will be dealt with the production markers, and which captured territories belong to which US income.
With an Axis breakdown of 50-60 Ger, 15-25 Ita, and 60-70 Jap income w/ NOs (with a perfect opening game) vs. an Allied income of 30-40 UK, 20-30 USSR, and 100+ USA income w/ NOs (guestimation), it seems balanced until you realize that the US can put ALL those IPCs into one front or, in the case of split economies, simply losing a few turns merging its fleets through the panama canal and making the split economy point moot. Since the Axis are the most hard pressed to combine their forces against Allied stacks, and those opportunities generally only present themselves in the middle of the board around Egypt and Persia, I just don’t see how even a 70 income german player can stand up to a 100+ IPC US juggernaut with a 30+ IPC UK sidekick for long. I’m guessing this is supposed to “balance” out the first 1-3 turns of reduced peacetime income and prevent the game from lasting till round 32 two weeks from game start, but since all the Allied side has to do is build infantry in Russia and the Axis has to roll well for most of its important battles, unless the Axis can take out Russia by turn 6 the game is already finished.
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Well I guess the Axis had better get busy with Russia.
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Meh, guess I’m just bitching the same as usual for all Axis players… Rolling well is necessary to win and the Allies generally have the upper hand economically, with time on their side. It’s just going to be more pronounced in this global game.
I just don’t see how its feasible with a window of maybe 3-4 turns after US war declaration to gobble up all of Russia between Japan and Germany, with US right on the Axis doorsteps with insane crazy builds of 2-3 turn 100+ IPC unit uberness drops. It will lead to faster games but I’m betting the endings will not be a lot like AA50 1941 scenario games…
Even IF Germany and Japan manage to snag Russia they will probably be too weakened to hold against a monster US in one front. Unless the US income is revised downwards to like 60 total or 35/35 split before NOs, I don’t see the Axis being able to compete against a smart US player, the TUV count just won’t let them maintain superiority. For example, with Britain starting the game with an IC in India and possibly South Africa, and the ANZAC being a separate power, it will be next to impossible for a focused Japanese Axis strategy if the US gets combined income on one front. Even if its split, all the US player would need to do to maintain superiority is combine his Atlantic and Pacific fleets 2 turns later for unstoppable force. This would lead to Japan doing a lot of preventative strikes around midway and hawaii to keep the US from combining fleets, if its even possible, diluting a lot of its threat to the rest of the theater. Forget about any help arriving in Russia, Japan will be hard enough pressed keeping all the little threats contained!
Man, I don’t even want to think about a 100+ IPC US invasion of Italy, with Britain as backup. Poor Italians, Il Duce will never know what hit him. Might as well start building infantry round 1.
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In the real WW2 there was a KGF strat. About 75%-80% of US war production went to Europe.
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But US didn’t moved all the Pacific fleet to Atlantic. It were a Midway, a Guadalcanal and lots of island hooping. India, Australia and China held the japanese assault etc etc
Yep, FDR did a KGF strat but not a ignore Japan strat. That’s the thing we want avoid, the comeback of ignore Japan fanmania (in fact in Revised it was a 100% ignore Japan fanmania, never a 100% KGF fanmania)
Said that, I think we don’t need a split income if the map and the setup are well done. Pacific side seems OK, let’s give a chance to Europe side. I don’t see how USA can ignore Japan in a global scenario, Japan can rampage to 104 IPCs if USA ignores them, even without taking Siberia, Alaska, part of Canada and South America in the count. And Japan can mass submarines at z10 to disrupt USA’s income (-52 IPCs to USA?) … ouch, ouch … and I don’t want imagine how many jap bombers can ubertoast USSR and London (Los Angeles and Whasington from Alaska bases?) if Japan sees the gamey strat try to work, sure Japan has enough escorts for this task … and many many options …
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And Japan can mass submarines at z10 to disrupt USA’s income (-52 IPCs to USA?) … ouch, ouch … and I don’t want imagine how many jap bombers can ubertoast USSR and London (Los Angeles and Whasington from Alaska bases?) if Japan sees the gamey strat try to work, sure Japan has enough escorts for this task … and many many options …
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Krieghund already shot down the convoy attack on US. Japan can not include the 40 IPC NO, W US only counts as 10 for convoy attacks. Just thought you should know.
**On a related note, it has also been determined (will be in the Errata soon) that if Japan moves into a US convoy zone (before it is at war w/US) that it would need to declare its intent. If it is going to result in a convoy attack (on the US turn) then it would indeed be a Dec Of War at the time that Japan moves its ships into the sz containing a convoy. You no longer (as Japan) can move in then wait until the end of the US turn to declare a convoy attack, resulting in a Dec Of War. Now the US would be able to attack you, on its turn if you declare a convoy attack, because you are at war at the beginning of the US turn. I believe this will include all powers, so it should have an effect on many I’ll cost you $, before you can attack me strats.
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@Imperious:
If each axis has it’s own VC to be met individually, the idea to help the other is a waste, so playing them both and perfectly coordinating them might just end.
Yes. This seems to be a good idea. The question is though - what happens when one axis player reaches all their VC? Do all the axis win at that point or just the individual? In which case does that axis player ‘bow out’ and the others carry on until all axis have reached VC or been eliminated, I mean once you’ve won…
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But US didn’t moved all the Pacific fleet to Atlantic. It were a Midway, a Guadalcanal and lots of island hooping. India, Australia and China held the japanese assault etc etc
Yep, FDR did a KGF strat but not a ignore Japan strat. That’s the thing we want avoid, the comeback of ignore Japan fanmania (in fact in Revised it was a 100% ignore Japan fanmania, never a 100% KGF fanmania)
Said that, I think we don’t need a split income if the map and the setup are well done. Pacific side seems OK, let’s give a chance to Europe side. I don’t see how USA can ignore Japan in a global scenario, Japan can rampage to 104 IPCs if USA ignores them, even without taking Siberia, Alaska, part of Canada and South America in the count. And Japan can mass submarines at z10 to disrupt USA’s income (-52 IPCs to USA?) … ouch, ouch … and I don’t want imagine how many jap bombers can ubertoast USSR and London (Los Angeles and Whasington from Alaska bases?) if Japan sees the gamey strat try to work, sure Japan has enough escorts for this task … and many many options …
There was no need for a navy in the Atlantic for the US, Germany didn’t have much of a navy to defeat.
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@Subotai:
In the real WW2 there was a KGF strat. About 75%-80% of US war production went to Europe.
But the US didn’t kill Germany. Russia did. The US helped deliver the Coup de Grace. But in the game, with 80% or more of US IPC:s going to Europe, it will spell disaster for Germany. I know its a game, but it doesn’t hurt if it has some connection to the real thing.
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@WILD:
Krieghund already shot down the convoy attack on US. Japan can not include the 40 IPC NO, W US only counts as 10 for convoy attacks. Just thought you should know.
One cannot be checking all the days if a new “errata” happens again. Anyway you are going to lose 10 IPCs for WUSA, 2 for Mexico, 2 for Alaska and 1 for BCol. I guess you could lose a couple more for Panama and Central America
And that errata is annoying, the rulebook says clearly WUSA income boosts from 10 to 50, not just a mere NO boost. It feels like when they “solved” the improved ICs “bug” in AA50 in the worst way the could do. Japan subs can disrupt convoys at peace but not at war? come on … ! Why the didn’t add a CUS territory with the bonus NO and let California the same at war/peace?
At this rate of changes, we are going to be better just playing OOB and ignore any errata, being unofficial and such :|
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@Brain:
There was no need for a navy in the Atlantic for the US, Germany didn’t have much of a navy to defeat.
Wolf packs of subs. Ask Churchill in 1940-41
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yeaah but germany never was big on boats. THey didnt have a large navy
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@Brain:
There was no need for a navy in the Atlantic for the US, Germany didn’t have much of a navy to defeat.
Wolf packs of subs. Ask Churchill in 1940-41
US didn’t get started over there until late 1942.
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Per LH 02/04/10
. "Will US have a spilt income in the global game- 50IPC for Pacific theater and 50IPC for the Europe theater- or will they be able to combine their income and dominate one theater??? The US will NOT have a split income in the global game. However, one of the powers will indeed have a split income but not the US.
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Finally, this thread can be closed. Wise Larry has spoken
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You can bet the splitted country will be UK: England plus Canada, probably with a minor IC at Ottawa :wink:
I’d like also some canadian markers to keep the tray of the brave men of the north :lol:
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You can bet the splitted country will be UK: England plus Canada, probably with a minor IC at Ottawa :wink:
I’d like also some canadian markers to keep the tray of the brave men of the north :lol:
Well I’d guess UK as well. Keeping their Pacific income from Europe.
Now let’s hope they keep the US Neutrality rules as realistic as their economic flexibility…. although I doubt it.
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LOL. The split income power will be… drumroll CANADA???
Probably more like INDIA. Or they’ll call it the BEF (British Expeditionary Forces?) and lump 'em all together.
Can’t wait to see the ocean of tears from die-hard Axis players when they see a 100+ IPC consolidated US front on turn 3.
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