Thanks all. No wonder we couldn’t figure out which scenario was right.
American split income?
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Even if distances are a problem in RL - the game turn is what 6 months ? so even if the arms factory can be in New England, the Division can be assembled in San Diego with no problem, so (KISS) NO split income.
I’ve heard game turns were even less, sometimes as low as 3 months, but that would still be enough time.
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Let’s pray they do a gazillion territories in mainland USA and Canada to ensure they must split the income. A 2 territories USA would be … patetic :-P
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To me it won’t matter if US income is split or not. You will be able to do as you please anyway. It will just take more planning. In some cases it could take more time, but not necessarily. It could also work as a tactic, so the enemy isn’t sure where that stack of air units are going. In WWII the US constantly used the Panama Canal to shuttle fleet and equipment. I like that the game gives us a little logistics.
BD why is this even an issue for you. You will still be able to buy fleet on one side, and air on the other. Your ftr placed on E US should be able to land on carriers off Hawaii. Ftr placed on W US should still be in UK in 2 turns via Canada because of AB. When I play I like to keep the US in both theaters. Usually about 2/3 income goes to one side or the other for a more balanced US strat, hinging on what Jap is doing. Seeing Jap in 40P, the US will not be able to bail in the Pacific for K Euro F.
Sounds like the US income will be split as if it were playing in separate games. Everything earned on the Pacific side (including NO’s) will be spent in San Fran. Likewise for Wash w/no variances. I wonder if San Fran will continue to be considered a capital for game purposes. If Washington is taken do you have to give up you San Fran $. This could be stepping away from the capture the flag rule (I doubt it, but would be easy to implement). On a side note I wonder if something similar will be done w/India. Looks like N S Wales will keep its capital status for Anz.
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@WILD:
Sounds like the US income will be split as if it were playing in separate games. Everything earned on the Pacific side (including NO’s) will be spent in San Fran. Likewise for Wash w/no variances. I wonder if San Fran will continue to be considered a capital for game purposes. If Washington is taken do you have to give up you San Fran $. This could be stepping away from the capture the flag rule (I doubt it, but would be easy to implement). On a side note I wonder if something similar will be done w/India. Looks like N S Wales will keep its capital status for Anz.
If income were split depending on where a territory is located on the map it would be very hard to keep track of. Also, looking at the map, there are territories which overlap both maps in Russia, China, and possibly India. If the US somehow gets a hold of one of those territories (through a captured capital) who would get the money? I think the ONLY forced split should be where the DoW national objectives are concerned. The 10 IPCs that the WUS is normally worth can be spent as normal IPCs wherever the US wishes. The 40 IPCs given to the WUS from the DoW NO is the only money that should be forced to be spent in the WUS. A similar NO in the EUS would be the same. Regular territory income and other NOs would be spent as normal, wherever the US player wishes.
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That is possible, but now your creating 3 incomes for the US. NO East, NO west, and tt income. The other NO’s that the US get’s ($5 IPC) would also go to the NO east or west I guess. Then there’s convoys, which income pays for that. You would have to keep three separate incomes and it might get confusing. It would be easier IMO to just buy units in each theater and move them where you want them.
The more I think about it the more it looks like when you hook up both sides, the individual games will still be in place to a certain extent (I think IL mentioned this first?). There will be some minor changes in set up, and political rules. I think what you see now in 40P is what your gonna get in 40GL for the most part. The fact that they left all those Manchurian’s there for Jap w/o having to worry about the Russian boarder kinda proves my point (for now is just over kill in China).
It also looks like there will be tt breaks pretty close to where the two maps will meet. You will be able to determine simply by where the name of the tt is. If its name is on the 40P map then its a Pacific tt and so on.
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@WILD:
That is possible, but now your creating 3 incomes for the US. NO East, NO west, and tt income. The other NO’s that the US get’s ($5 IPC) would also go to the NO east or west I guess. Then there’s convoys, which income pays for that. You would have to keep three separate incomes and it might get confusing. It would be easier IMO to just buy units in each theater and move them where you want them.
I actually feel it would be relatively easy to keep track of. 40 IPCs spent in WUS, 40 in EUS, and the rest split up between them and other possible factories the US player builds. The UK did this in the original Pacific (Australia had an income, India had an income, and UK had an income which was divided between Australia and India). Gains in the Pacific should be able to be used to build in the EUS to fight in Europe, just as Germany can use African IPCs to go after Russia. IMO, just the NOs which are written on a certain territory have to be spent in that territory. For example, the WUS NO is written right in the territory (income 10/50), unlike the Phillipines (it just has a 2, not a 2/7), so only the WUS NO has to be spent in the WUS. Honestly though, I don’t care how it works as long as the game plays well.
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Agreed, how its split won’t matter that much, even if its not split at all. You’ll still have the flexibility to do as you want.
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Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t a larger portion of the US’s military/production done in the western side of the US?
IE maybe with Europe we won’t have a similar 40 IPC bonus, a smaller one perhaps of 10 or even 20. -
BD why is this even an issue for you. You will still be able to buy fleet on one side, and air on the other. Your ftr placed on E US should be able to land on carriers off Hawaii. Ftr placed on W US should still be in UK in 2 turns via Canada because of AB. When I play I like to keep the US in both theaters. Usually about 2/3 income goes to one side or the other for a more balanced US strat, hinging on what Jap is doing. Seeing Jap in 40P, the US will not be able to bail in the Pacific for K Euro F.
They probably will split their income, I just don’t believe that they should be forced into it.
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@Brain:
Even if distances are a problem in RL - the game turn is what 6 months ? so even if the arms factory can be in New England, the Division can be assembled in San Diego with no problem, so (KISS) NO split income.
I’ve heard game turns were even less, sometimes as low as 3 months, but that would still be enough time.
Indeed. Even without the post-war interstate system.
So the turn is a fixed unit of time.
And Speed is the distance divided by time…
And yet we’re still looking at Germany having the same number of territories and 1/20th the distance… oops, how do you model that?Look. Forget about rationalizing what can be done in a turn. This is a game balancing decision not some math problem.
"a train with armour leaves Detroit at 0900 hrs on T1 at 70 mph and a transport leaves San Diego at 1000 hrs on T1 travelling at 50 mph… yada yada yada"
Who knows maybe the new rules will give US an IPC boost to maintain balance and their “arsenal of democracy” role against both bad guys.
Who knows… -
All I can say is that a good us player will be the most active player in the game. He will need to get up and walk from one side of the board to the
other every turn to play because the board will be so huge. -
That and the US controls china for the only time in history
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I think that it should not have split income.
The U.S. shouldn’t be forced to fight equally in both fronts.
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All I can say is that a good us player will be the most active player in the game. He will need to get up and walk from one side of the board to the
other every turn to play because the board will be so huge.So now we can get our exercise while we play A&A. This is good news.
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Jesus, I don’t see how it could be anything but a split economy; if the US has a peacetime/wartime footing like in AA1940Pac, 80 IPCs plopped down on either side of the US on any given turn is completely unbalancing (how is 8+ planes a turn remotely fair to the Axis players on either front?). Even with split incomes, it looks like it won’t be feasible for the Axis to win extended games simply due to the fact that the US will be banking TWO incomes for the Allied side once war is declared. That’s something any axis player would have a hard time chewing through, not to mention how EUS/WUS incomes will be dealt with the production markers, and which captured territories belong to which US income.
With an Axis breakdown of 50-60 Ger, 15-25 Ita, and 60-70 Jap income w/ NOs (with a perfect opening game) vs. an Allied income of 30-40 UK, 20-30 USSR, and 100+ USA income w/ NOs (guestimation), it seems balanced until you realize that the US can put ALL those IPCs into one front or, in the case of split economies, simply losing a few turns merging its fleets through the panama canal and making the split economy point moot. Since the Axis are the most hard pressed to combine their forces against Allied stacks, and those opportunities generally only present themselves in the middle of the board around Egypt and Persia, I just don’t see how even a 70 income german player can stand up to a 100+ IPC US juggernaut with a 30+ IPC UK sidekick for long. I’m guessing this is supposed to “balance” out the first 1-3 turns of reduced peacetime income and prevent the game from lasting till round 32 two weeks from game start, but since all the Allied side has to do is build infantry in Russia and the Axis has to roll well for most of its important battles, unless the Axis can take out Russia by turn 6 the game is already finished.
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Well I guess the Axis had better get busy with Russia.
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Meh, guess I’m just bitching the same as usual for all Axis players… Rolling well is necessary to win and the Allies generally have the upper hand economically, with time on their side. It’s just going to be more pronounced in this global game.
I just don’t see how its feasible with a window of maybe 3-4 turns after US war declaration to gobble up all of Russia between Japan and Germany, with US right on the Axis doorsteps with insane crazy builds of 2-3 turn 100+ IPC unit uberness drops. It will lead to faster games but I’m betting the endings will not be a lot like AA50 1941 scenario games…
Even IF Germany and Japan manage to snag Russia they will probably be too weakened to hold against a monster US in one front. Unless the US income is revised downwards to like 60 total or 35/35 split before NOs, I don’t see the Axis being able to compete against a smart US player, the TUV count just won’t let them maintain superiority. For example, with Britain starting the game with an IC in India and possibly South Africa, and the ANZAC being a separate power, it will be next to impossible for a focused Japanese Axis strategy if the US gets combined income on one front. Even if its split, all the US player would need to do to maintain superiority is combine his Atlantic and Pacific fleets 2 turns later for unstoppable force. This would lead to Japan doing a lot of preventative strikes around midway and hawaii to keep the US from combining fleets, if its even possible, diluting a lot of its threat to the rest of the theater. Forget about any help arriving in Russia, Japan will be hard enough pressed keeping all the little threats contained!
Man, I don’t even want to think about a 100+ IPC US invasion of Italy, with Britain as backup. Poor Italians, Il Duce will never know what hit him. Might as well start building infantry round 1.
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In the real WW2 there was a KGF strat. About 75%-80% of US war production went to Europe.
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But US didn’t moved all the Pacific fleet to Atlantic. It were a Midway, a Guadalcanal and lots of island hooping. India, Australia and China held the japanese assault etc etc
Yep, FDR did a KGF strat but not a ignore Japan strat. That’s the thing we want avoid, the comeback of ignore Japan fanmania (in fact in Revised it was a 100% ignore Japan fanmania, never a 100% KGF fanmania)
Said that, I think we don’t need a split income if the map and the setup are well done. Pacific side seems OK, let’s give a chance to Europe side. I don’t see how USA can ignore Japan in a global scenario, Japan can rampage to 104 IPCs if USA ignores them, even without taking Siberia, Alaska, part of Canada and South America in the count. And Japan can mass submarines at z10 to disrupt USA’s income (-52 IPCs to USA?) … ouch, ouch … and I don’t want imagine how many jap bombers can ubertoast USSR and London (Los Angeles and Whasington from Alaska bases?) if Japan sees the gamey strat try to work, sure Japan has enough escorts for this task … and many many options …
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And Japan can mass submarines at z10 to disrupt USA’s income (-52 IPCs to USA?) … ouch, ouch … and I don’t want imagine how many jap bombers can ubertoast USSR and London (Los Angeles and Whasington from Alaska bases?) if Japan sees the gamey strat try to work, sure Japan has enough escorts for this task … and many many options …
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Krieghund already shot down the convoy attack on US. Japan can not include the 40 IPC NO, W US only counts as 10 for convoy attacks. Just thought you should know.
**On a related note, it has also been determined (will be in the Errata soon) that if Japan moves into a US convoy zone (before it is at war w/US) that it would need to declare its intent. If it is going to result in a convoy attack (on the US turn) then it would indeed be a Dec Of War at the time that Japan moves its ships into the sz containing a convoy. You no longer (as Japan) can move in then wait until the end of the US turn to declare a convoy attack, resulting in a Dec Of War. Now the US would be able to attack you, on its turn if you declare a convoy attack, because you are at war at the beginning of the US turn. I believe this will include all powers, so it should have an effect on many I’ll cost you $, before you can attack me strats.
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