Kill USA First

[Vareel]

@KH:

Thanks for giving serious input on this Vareel and Spectre!

The strategy is slightly different though. I attack Alaska in turn 2 (6 stuffed transports). In J-turn 3, I move my 12 Alaska units to British Columbia and land 8 more landunits (4 transports) and all available planes to Alaska. This means US has 17 (turn 1) - 22 (turn 2) - 62 (turn 3) ipc’s to spend before the final attack in J4. I’m totally sure the US can not buy or get enough defense capacity to resist this. I tried naval blocking, but did not succeed yet. Japan could and should attack all early blockades. If US blocks the Alaskan route in US 1, Japan should buy an airbase in J2, kill this blockade in J2 and land in Aleutian instead of Alaska. At the end of the turn, place the airbase in Aleutian. Next turn, as earlier said, Japan should take British Columbia to create a landing space for all fighters and tac bombers in the next turn (J4).

In J3 I bought 3 bombers. They can participate in the final J4 attack and land in BC.

Cheers…

Ok, then your looking at another problem.  The US could strafe your stack if they choose coming in threw canada.  Also, with 17 (5 inf) 22 + 2 (8 inf) +62 (3 fig / 2 arm / 5 inf) gives them alot of ground units.

The biggest thing though, as a UK player, you should see this and begin going ALL navy as early as turn 1.  You have until turn 6 until Japan can even get near you.

Up to test this in a game?  I suffered the loss of WUS once by being a dink i’ll give it another go  :-D

[Stoney229]

@Vareel:

@KH:

Thanks for giving serious input on this Vareel and Spectre!

The strategy is slightly different though. I attack Alaska in turn 2 (6 stuffed transports). In J-turn 3, I move my 12 Alaska units to British Columbia and land 8 more landunits (4 transports) and all available planes to Alaska. This means US has 17 (turn 1) - 22 (turn 2) - 62 (turn 3) ipc’s to spend before the final attack in J4. I’m totally sure the US can not buy or get enough defense capacity to resist this. I tried naval blocking, but did not succeed yet. Japan could and should attack all early blockades. If US blocks the Alaskan route in US 1, Japan should buy an airbase in J2, kill this blockade in J2 and land in Aleutian instead of Alaska. At the end of the turn, place the airbase in Aleutian. Next turn, as earlier said, Japan should take British Columbia to create a landing space for all fighters and tac bombers in the next turn (J4).

In J3 I bought 3 bombers. They can participate in the final J4 attack and land in BC.

Cheers…

Ok, then your looking at another problem.  The US could strafe your stack if they choose coming in threw canada.  Also, with 17 (5 inf) 22 + 2 (8 inf) +62 (3 fig / 2 arm / 5 inf) gives them alot of ground units.

The biggest thing though, as a UK player, you should see this and begin going ALL navy as early as turn 1.  You have until turn 6 until Japan can even get near you.

Up to test this in a game?  I suffered the loss of WUS once by being a dink i’ll give it another go  :-D

haha Vareel is an experienced defender of KUS (although he didn’t succeed  :evil:).  When I first saw the P40 setup, I immediately thought there might be a broken KUS strat too.  So far I’ve only been able to play the 1 game, and though I succeeded, Vareel would have done better if he had seen it coming.  However, I’m still not yet convinced it is or isn’t a broken strategy.  I actually attacked t3, so that US wouldn’t be able to use it’s 40 extra to build defense, but it sounds like Stuka’s model has had a bit more play.  One question for Stuka - have you actually played it all the way out, because it took me awhile to gain any ground against UK/ANZAC even after I took Wus, and that was only after he had 3 turns to build, not 4 - and had he seen seen the KUS coming he could have done some better things with them early on.  When you are playing the test games, are you playing the UK/ANZAC turns?  because if you’re not I wonder if you’re keeping enough on Japan every turn to defend against a possible UK/ANZ invasion.

[Vareel]

Yeah, had I been thinking it even possible I would have built up a larger wall of INF with the US, and went pure navy with the UK.  I got caught with me pants down lol.

Also, I probably would have tried to fortify Pearl heavy to defend the US fleet and hold Japan there so they wouldn’t have had a path into the south, at least not a fast one.

[More Zeppelins]

Hey there, this is my first post although I’ve been reading the boards for the last few weeks in order to decide whether to purchase AAP:40.  Anyway, went ahead and made the buy (and happy that I did, already had Anny edition, revised, MB and original Pac), but the sieze Alaska KAF strat has played out successfully for the Japanese in all three games I’ve played (all with the same seasoned vet friend) in much the same way as the OP mentioned it.  We’ve both tried it as Japan and it just doesn’t seem feasible to block the move:  because of Japan’s overwhelming initial airpower, as long as the Japanese player can hold onto Alaska, the Aleutians or BC, something like 26 planes (not to mention those on AC’s) can be brought to bear on U.S. by turn three (or 4, depending on your preferences).  Even if the Japanese player only has a few ground units available for the invasion of WUS, the airpower is overwhelming (remember, US can build max of 20 units by turn 3 invasion or 30 by turn 4 and realistically probably less given that the US has a starting value of 17 IPC on turn one).

Anyway, although I’m not nearly certain enough of the strat to call the game “broken” or anything of that nature, it does seem to be worryingly effective, in our case even when the American player knew it was coming.  Any thoughts on how to stop this?

[Vareel]

Have the UK begin to purchase fleet on UK1 once he sees Jap trannies are staying north.  Focus on getting the UK income as high as humanly possible.  Also, have the UK starting land units begin to push hard into china, along with the starting china units to kick japan out of asia ASAP.  Do not fear declaring war on Japan if they are going after the US anyway, it doesn’t matter.

Have ANZAC focus on subs and planes.  Subs for raiding, planes for defending.  Try to make a stand with the US fleet at Pearl, this will keep japan’s fleet from moving back into position after the US grab for a few extra turns.

Get a chuckle when japan realizes western us is only worth 10, not 50.

That is really all one can do sadly.  Also you can block with 1 DD, then 1 Cru to SZ 7.  Without passing threw SZ 7 japan has no way to reach alaska delaying them 1 more turn.  Or at least giving you 1 turn with war economy with any luck.

Edit: Just to add I think the best method the US has to stop this is blocking SZ 7, this forces you to land on the islands and use British Colombia as your LZ for your planes on a J4 strike.  At the end of J3 you would have 20 land units in BCO at the most.  This means the US, on turn 3, would need to be able to kill said 20 land units.  By US3 at max a US player should have 3 inf, 1 mech, 1 art, 1 arm (starting) 2 inf (pearl) 3 fig, 3 tac, 3 bmr, plus 3 inf/2 art (T1 buy), plus 6 inf/1 art (T2 buy).  Or 14 inf, 1 mech, 4 art, 1 arm, 3 fig, 3 tac, 3 bmr.  Or 29 hits /w 63 punch.  This tactic would allow the US to hold for atleast 1 more turn.

Now an easy J counter would be to move starting transports into SZ 2 on J1 /w navy.  This is an interesting puzzle, but there must be a way to stop it.  And even if it cannot be stopped, I think UK could take the win anyway.

[More Zeppelins]

Interesting counter, Vareel, we’ll have to try large naval buys with UK as counter next time, although I’m still not sure if it’ll be enough to threaten Japan before WUS falls.

Also, I’m a little confused by your statement that WUS is only worth 10: I was under the impression that if captured by Japanese forces, it would continue being worth 50 IPCs (clearly an insurmountable figure if accurate).  Did I miss something in the rulebook that states that iWestern US is only worth 10 if captured by Axis, or did I misunderstand your comment?  Thanks in advance.

[Vareel]

WUS is worth 10, the US gains 40 extra bucks from being at war and controlling WUS as a national objective.  Japan only collects 10 IPC a turn for controlling it.

[Stoney229]

@Vareel:

WUS is worth 10, the US gains 40 extra bucks from being at war and controlling WUS as a national objective.  Japan only collects 10 IPC a turn for controlling it.

This is true, Krieg confirmed it somewhere.  So even if Jap takes Wus and steals ~60 IPC, the game is not over if UK/ANZ/CHI can get big enough fast enough, esp if the US fleet survives.  questions remain: can the US fleet survive, and can the other allies get big enough fast enough.

[Vareel]

The more I look at this, and think about it, I think the key to stopping this from working is to delay Japan from taking and securing a landing site for there planes.  Along this route I think against a japan purchase of transports, and/or transports hanging out in the north, I would do as follows.

1. Block SZ 7 with a destroyer.
   -This prevents the purchase transports from J1 from reach on J2.
2. Purchase Inf/Art turn 1.
   -Your gonna need 'em.
3. Ship 4 Inf to Alaska turn 1, along with landing 6+ planes.
   -This keeps Alaska safe from a J2 landing as the most they can bring is 2 bombards, 4 planes, and 4 land units.

This will also allow you to safely counterattack British Colombia on US2.  At that point Japan really has no method of establishing a safe landing zone for there planes on the mainland turn 2.  If they take the Aleutian islands that is fine, as the US should be able to get enough units to counter-attack British Colombia on US3.  No landing zone means no plane threat beyond the carriers until J5, at which point you should be able to hold anyway.

Any thoughts?

[More Zeppelins]

O.k. Vareel, I like your strat, and I think you’re right that the key is to deny a landing zone for the massive Japanese airforce.  That being said, while it seems that it would pretty much trump the “Alaskan Pipeline” KAF if Japan waits to launch until J2, the heavy transport buy J1 is still a solid investment.  With so much attention diverted north in anticipation of Alaskan invasion, Honolulu is ripe for the picking and, once secured on J2, provides a real thorn in the American’s side for long enough to give the Japanese a decent chance to pick off ANZAC (especially if the Japanese player stacks Hawaii with fighter interceptors on J3, which makes it a major headache to capture if even a portion of the Japanese navy is left behind).

Also: Thanks for the heads up on WUS being worth 10 to Axis.  Must have missed that note completely somewhere along the line.

[Stoney229]

@Vareel:

The more I look at this, and think about it, I think the key to stopping this from working is to delay Japan from taking and securing a landing site for there planes.  Along this route I think against a japan purchase of transports, and/or transports hanging out in the north, I would do as follows.

1. Block SZ 7 with a destroyer.
   -This prevents the purchase transports from J1 from reach on J2.
2. Purchase Inf/Art turn 1.
   -Your gonna need 'em.
3. Ship 4 Inf to Alaska turn 1, along with landing 6+ planes.
   -This keeps Alaska safe from a J2 landing as the most they can bring is 2 bombards, 4 planes, and 4 land units.

This will also allow you to safely counterattack British Colombia on US2.  At that point Japan really has no method of establishing a safe landing zone for there planes on the mainland turn 2.  If they take the Aleutian islands that is fine, as the US should be able to get enough units to counter-attack British Colombia on US3.  No landing zone means no plane threat beyond the carriers until J5, at which point you should be able to hold anyway.

Any thoughts?

If Jap noncombated all units (w/ loaded inf) J1 z6>z1, would that ensure a safe landing zone for planes on J3?

[KH Stuka]

Nice discussion going on! Thanks for the interesting input.

Vareel;
If you move your destroyer to seazone 7 (or 4) I would go for Aleutian J2 and kill the destroyer too. Further more in J2 Japan has not 4 but 12 landing units (6 transports; 3 at the start of the game, 3 bought in J1). I know USA is worth 10 IPC’s and not 50. I also do believe that if Japan fails to take US, it’s a lost game. Controlling seazone 1 and BC in turn 3 are crucial to gain succes. It’s true Japan much watch it’s back door, that’s why I dont’s buy 5 transports in J2, but 4 and 3 inf to stay in the homeland. Still the UK is no threat I believe. To confuse the US player, in J turn 1-non combat fase I place all (except AC placed planes) my fighters and tactical bombers in China (the land north of kwantung, max. 4 flyzones from Japan! important that is!). In J2 all these planes are heading for Japan.

But no, I didn’t play out my strategy to the end. Meaning, I strongly believe that when US is taken Japan will win.

Other thoughts?

[KH Stuka]

Just found the first solution for the US,  :cry:. If the US buys 2 destroyers the first turn they have enuff surface ships to built an effective block in turn 1 and 2. Blockade first turn seazone 4,7,15. If J wants to continue in turn 2, they -of course- kill all blocking ships and have to go for Hawaii. Then US blocks seazone 11,12,13. Not happy yellow peoples!

If that’s the only solution…J could check what US buys first turn. I’ll keep on searching for other solutions.

[Vareel]

@KH:

Nice discussion going on! Thanks for the interesting input.

Vareel;
If you move your destroyer to seazone 7 (or 4) I would go for Aleutian J2 and kill the destroyer too. Further more in J2 Japan has not 4 but 12 landing units (6 transports; 3 at the start of the game, 3 bought in J1). I know USA is worth 10 IPC’s and not 50. I also do believe that if Japan fails to take US, it’s a lost game. Controlling seazone 1 and BC in turn 3 are crucial to gain succes. It’s true Japan much watch it’s back door, that’s why I dont’s buy 5 transports in J2, but 4 and 3 inf to stay in the homeland. Still the UK is no threat I believe. To confuse the US player, in J turn 1-non combat fase I place all (except AC placed planes) my fighters and tactical bombers in China (the land north of kwantung, max. 4 flyzones from Japan! important that is!). In J2 all these planes are heading for Japan.

But no, I didn’t play out my strategy to the end. Meaning, I strongly believe that when US is taken Japan will win.

Other thoughts?

With you holding the Aleutian islands you still need to hold British Colombia for the planes to have a landing zone.  That is why on US3 in my plan, I kill your ground units that landed in British Colombia.

As far as your proposed counter, Japan can just send there starting SZ 6 boats to SZ 2 on turn 1 and still take Alaska, then just NCM the other troops in, it will not work.  Re-read my plan, it works.

[ksmckay]

Really dont see how this could be considered a reasonable strategy.

It can certainly work if you are playing newbies and you want to crush them.

Otherwise, it is easily countered and when it fails Japan will lose the game.  Japan gets themselves completely out of position by trying this and if Wus doesnt fall, which it wont if the US player knows what they are doing.  It takes too many turns unlike the surprise assaults that could be launched in AA50 41’.  And at the end US still has a 50 dollar territory and will be making just as much as Japan except the enemy is on the doorstep and it doesnt have to go across the pacific to get to them.

[Stoney229]

@Vareel:

With you holding the Aleutian islands you still need to hold British Colombia for the planes to have a landing zone.  That is why on US3 in my plan, I kill your ground units that landed in British Colombia.

As far as your proposed counter, Japan can just send there starting SZ 6 boats to SZ 2 on turn 1 and still take Alaska, then just NCM the other troops in, it will not work.  Re-read my plan, it works.

I meant z1, to land in Bco J2.  J2 would also kill the blocking surface ships in z8/z7 w/ a million planes (max of 10 planes, 7 bmr can reach z8, all can reach z7 if planes are left on Jap J1), and possibly take Hawaii.  then ncm all z6 ships and land units to z1/Bco.  I guess US would be able to take Bco back before J3?  but it would be expensive for US, so would they have enough to defend against the 4-5 new Jap transports coming in?  I think so, but there are several options for Jap depending on what US does, that it is worth playing to try out.  Perhaps the people who are saying only an idiot US player would fall to this strat should be the test defenders!

[Vareel]

A J2 hit on BCO would leave a max of 12 ground units.

With my plan, US has 4 inf in Alaska, 4 more ground units in WUS from starting, plus the 3 Inf, 2 Art purchase turn 1, and, lastly, 8 planes.

Your 12 dudes that landed would get smashed, easily.  Now yes, you have say 4 more transports with 8 more units comming in with 6 carrier planes on J3.  They would go up against the 6 inf/1 art purchased, along with the aagun and all those planes, not counting anything held back from the US attack on BCO.

This would be much easier to show in a game Stoney  :-D

[ksmckay]

@Stoney229:

Perhaps the people who are saying only an idiot US player would fall to this strat should be the test defenders!

I am game.

[Stoney229]

@Vareel:

This would be much easier to show in a game Stoney  :-D

yeah… about that…  sorry I haven’t started another one.  I’m trying to be responsible and finish up a few things before starting another game, but as it is I can’t peel myself away from the forums to do the work I need to do!! :-o

[Vareel]

Welp someone send me a message i’ll take allies against that strat.