Subs are awesome

[wodan46]

@a44bigdog:

Have you actually tried this?

I highly suspect you have not, as what all you are proposing is no where near as easy as it seems. Especially the part about the subs top of the line killing power. Sure if no destroyer is present whatever they do manage to hit will not return fire, but you better have quite a fat stack because those cruisers and battleships that hit at higher probabilities will be dwindling your numbers quickly.

Subs 1 HP per 6 IPCs, 1 Attack per 3 IPCs, and 1 Defense per 6 IPCs (Super Subs get 1 Attack per 2 IPCs)
Destroyers get 1 HP per 8 IPCs and 1 Attack/Defense per 4 IPCs
Cruisers get 1 HP per 12 IPCs and 1 Attack/Defense per 4 IPCs
Battleships get 1 HP per 10 IPCs and 1 Attack/Defense per 5 IPCs
Carriers get 1 HP per 14 IPCs, 1 Attack per 14 IPCs, and 1 Defense per 7 IPCs

Even if Destroyers ARE present, denying the Sub its first strike, the Subs STILL vastly outclass any ship when attacking.  Even on Defense, a Sub will trounce Cruisers and Battleships, and they lose only narrowly to Destroyers.  The only way to beat Subs is with an attacking Destroyer/Aircraft group, with the Fighters not being dependent on Carriers.  Even then, Subs might still survive if they kill the Destroyers quickly enough.

Fighters get 1 HP per 10 IPCs, 1 Attack per 3.33 IPCs, and 1 Defense per 2.5 IPCs
Bombers get 1 HP per 12 IPCs, 1 Attack per 3 IPCs, and 1 Defense per 12 IPCs

Of course, keep in mind that in any of the Sub strategies will revolve around the Subs NOT getting attacked, but putting the enemy into a position where they must be attacked in order to get within range.  Since the Allies are the ones trying to invade the Axis, all the Axis need to do is sit back and sink and ships that come into range, for as long as Subs are attacking, the have better Attack than any other Air/Sea unit, in addition to having the best HP per Air/Sea unit.

[I like Ike]

@wodan46:

Here are some strategies for Subs
Germany1: You mass the Subs in a single stack, while using Destroyers or Cruisers as shields.  For Germany, this would consist of building 1 Cruiser and 3 Subs first turn, use the Luftwaffe to kill the Destroyer in Sea Zone 6, then retreating the Subs to the Baltic Sea.  You now have a fleet of 6 Subs and 2 Cruisers, which if attack the British Airforce, will use the Subs to soak up hits (as a result, the British are unlikely to bother.  Land the Fighters on Western Europe and Norway.  On the second turn, you move the Cruisers to Sea Zones 7 and 3, and the Sub stack to Sea Zone 6, sending additional Subs as fodder if Zones 7 and 3 are occupied (unlikely).  The Sub stack can now hit anything around the United Kingdom, with 2 Fighters apiece able to hit Sea Zones 2 and 8, while the British fleet can’t.

Germany2: You mass Subs in the Baltic Sea, though building Bombers would also be useful.  Destroy any unit that enters Sea Zone 7, 6, or 3.  If it is a small force or a singular unit, send a single Sub along with a Bomber, which should be enough.  Doing this ensures that any Allied Invasion fleet will only get to invade once, before they are all sunk.  From a technical standpoint, you don’t really need many Subs for this strategy, the only difference between them and Bombers is that Bombers can also be used against Russia, but have half the hit soaking ability.  As a result, you would probably build a good mixture of the two.

Japan1: Build a large fleet of Subs, then scatter them across the Pacific, with no more than 1 Sub per space that is within range of a Destroyer.  This will force America to mass mainly Destroyers or be overwhelmed, and Destroyers are in turn useless for actually invading Japan or East Asia.

Keep in mind that the purposes of these strategies is primarily to stall invasions by Britain and America, and secondarily to sink their fleets so as to eventually give the option of invading them.  So long as that is true, Russia can’t be expected to hold even Eurasia, let alone Africa or Oceania.  They have 25 or so IPCs a turn.  The Axis will have about 125 IPCs a turn.  If they can stall out America and Britain with 75 IPCs, they can easily crush Russia with the remainder.

So on G1 your going to mass subs, then on R1 I’m going to counter with armor for the counter attack on Germany since your not reinforcing the lines.  Then on UK1 I’m stocking up on Bombers so I can bomb Germany and Italy to the Stone Age.

G2: to my delight you built more German subs so I’ll just keep building Russian tanks and UK Bombers and possibly tech dice.

J1:  If we’re playing '41 17 bucks is only gonna get you 2 subs, so I wouldn’t consider that a large fleet.  Even if you buy them that doesn’t force America into buying Destroyers.  America can counter with subs just the same.  While Japan is busy stocking up on subs to scatter around the Pacific, I’ll just buy some bombers and tech dice to help out the UK in crippling the German war machine.

[a44bigdog]

Well that answered my question.

Subs cannot soak hits from air units unless an attacking destroyer is present.

With that G1 I would gladly send the RAF in after the surface ships. Two at three and one at four versus two at three. Of course sadly I have more IPCs present and the surface arm of the Kriegsmarine will be going glugg, glugg. The Royal Navy is quite safe parked in Seazone 2 and since you did not hit seazone 9 or seazone 12 that is 2 destroyers, a cruiser and a battleship BEFORE the UK even spends a dime on fleet units.

You did not attack Karelia and since part of the Luftwaffe is in Norway I am thinking you probably have no more than 2 infantry if any in Finland. Without Russia liberating a single territory and merely taking Finland that gives Russia 28 IPCs without National Objectives and 33 with NOs. Hardly the 25 you are claiming.

All the math is nice and spiffy. I rarely see equal IPC battles on the game board. Find some dice and start tossing them and see just how often those ones and twos come up. By your methods subs are even great on defense. Again grab a handful of dice and start tossing them until some ones appear.

[wodan46]

@a44bigdog:

Well that answered my question.

Subs cannot soak hits from air units unless an attacking destroyer is present.

That sinks the 1 Cruiser 3 Sub build, as well as Germany using naval units to shield Subs period.  They can still either mass 5 Subs to add to the 3 they already have.

@a44bigdog:

You did not attack Karelia and since part of the Luftwaffe is in Norway I am thinking you probably have no more than 2 infantry if any in Finland. Without Russia liberating a single territory and merely taking Finland that gives Russia 28 IPCs without National Objectives and 33 with NOs. Hardly the 25 you are claiming.

No, Germany can easily take Baltic States/East Poland/Ukraine the first turn, and Karelia the following.  They can pick up Egypt as well.

G1:
3 Inf, 1 Art, 1 Fighter to Ukraine
1 Inf, 6 Arm to East Poland
5 Inf, 2 Art, to Baltic States
1 Fighter, 1 Cruiser to SZ 2
3 Inf, Art, 2 Arm, 1 Bmb to Egypt

Alternatively, you could forget about capturing Egypt, forget about saving the Subs you have, and wipe out Sea Zones 2, 6, and 12.  You would be reduced, but so would Britain.

@a44bigdog:

All the math is nice and spiffy. I rarely see equal IPC battles on the game board. Find some dice and start tossing them and see just how often those ones and twos come up. By your methods subs are even great on defense. Again grab a handful of dice and start tossing them until some ones appear.

2 Infantry attacking a Tank will win the majority of the time.  Subs being attacked by a Cruiser have the same cost/attack ratios.

[wodan46]

@I:

So on G1 your going to mass subs, then on R1 I’m going to counter with armor for the counter attack on Germany since your not reinforcing the lines.  Then on UK1 I’m stocking up on Bombers so I can bomb Germany and Italy to the Stone Age.

If Britain builds Bombers, then you can go secure the seas around the United Kingdom easily, whereupon Britain will never be able to invade you.  Since invasion is no longer a concern, you can then return the focus to crushing Russia.

@I:

G2: to my delight you built more German subs so I’ll just keep building Russian tanks and UK Bombers and possibly tech dice.

Why would I build more German Subs?  I already have 8.  At this point, Germany should probably switch to massing Infantry and Bombers.  7 Infantry and 2 Bombers is about right.  The Bombers can assist on either the naval front or ground front.  Bombers work well with Subs, because while they have half the durability, they can help in ground combat as well, and don’t expose themselves to counterattack to the same degree.

It just occurred to me that with a Sub/Bomber force, you will be killing Fighters with Bombers.  !?

@I:

J1:  If we’re playing '41 17 bucks is only gonna get you 2 subs, so I wouldn’t consider that a large fleet.

First turn, Japan should sink all of its IPCs into Research Chart 2.  By the time it collects some real money on the following turn, it will probably have a tech, and it can mass appropriately.  If they get Super Subs, Radar, or nothing, they should probably invest in some Subs to keep Americans away.  If they get Improved Shipyards, they should crush the US with a more conventional fleet, and anything else they should focus on abusing their uber air force instead.

@I:

Even if you buy them that doesn’t force America into buying Destroyers.  America can counter with subs just the same.  While Japan is busy stocking up on subs to scatter around the Pacific, I’ll just buy some bombers and tech dice to help out the UK in crippling the German war machine.

Then Japan sinks the American fleet, and either invades West US or goes back to ignoring America and pounding Russia.

A lot of your criticism seems to revolve around the presumption that once a side starts massing Subs, they will continue to mass Subs forever and not react to enemy tactics.  The Subs are a tool to deter and destroy navies and transports.  If they have been deterred or destroyed, then you no longer need to be building Subs.

[a44bigdog]

Notice where I said in reference to Russia’s income, “without liberating a single territory” the figure I gave you was for Germany having control of Ukraine, E. Poland, and Belorussia.

With a 5 sub purchase on G1 that only leaves 1 IPC. That is no ground units. At least the Infantry and tanks you purchase in round 2 will not have far to go to find the Russians. A pack of subs in the Baltic only protects Norway, NW and France from a UK invasion. It does nothing for stopping an invasion of Algeria from SZ12. To attack seazone 12 the subs will have to come in range of the destroyers that will be in seazone 12 which would be 2 British and 1 US. All the subs can do on defense is sink a destroyer and die to aircraft fire.

Why don’t you read up on Abattlemap and we can play a game here sometime on the forum and you can put this theory to the test of an actual game.

[TG Moses VI]

This argument would be more fair if Germany was allowed to build U-Boats directly from French harbors, which is actually historical.  Since they can’t, I have to side with A44.  Subs serve only as a limited asset to the Germans.  They aren’t world beaters

[I like Ike]

@wodan46:

If Britain builds Bombers, then you can go secure the seas around the United Kingdom easily, whereupon Britain will never be able to invade you.  Since invasion is no longer a concern, you can then return the focus to crushing Russia.

There’s one problem, you just gave Russia 2 rounds of much needed time to gain Territory, Units, and IPC’s.

@wodan46:

Why would I build more German Subs?  I already have 8.  At this point, Germany should probably switch to massing Infantry and Bombers.  7 Infantry and 2 Bombers is about right.

Because you said in your post above to mass subs on G2 (just like you did on G1).  So now your going to go almost exclusively Infantry?  Sounds pretty defense to me.  But that’s probably a good call because on UK2 and US2 turn……you’ll need to get everyone in their bomb shelters.  (Better hope they’re not HB’s)

@wodan46:

First turn, Japan should sink all of its IPCs into Research Chart 2.  By the time it collects some real money on the following turn, it will probably have a tech, and it can mass appropriately.  If they get Super Subs, Radar, or nothing, they should probably invest in some Subs to keep Americans away.  If they get Improved Shipyards, they should crush the US with a more conventional fleet, and anything else they should focus on abusing their uber air force instead.

Ummmm nope, you said on J1 to spend everything on that massive 2 sub fleet.

@wodan46:

Then Japan sinks the American fleet, and either invades West US or goes back to ignoring America and pounding Russia.

OK sinks the American fleet with what? Transports?  You just spent all your IPC’s on Tech?  And if your going to sink my American fleet (which is subs)  how you gonna do that without Destroyers?  That tactic sounds familiar…now where did I hear that?  :wink:  Also how is Japan gonna pound Russia if you’re sinking all your IPC’s in Tech dice and Subs?  In order to pound Russia you gotta buy ground forces and Transports and keep shipping to the mainland.

[wodan46]

@a44bigdog:

Why don’t you read up on Abattlemap and we can play a game here sometime on the forum and you can put this theory to the test of an actual game.

Where should I go to get Abattlemap working anyways?  I wanna play.

Also, I’m beginning to suspect that Germany might be best building a Sub fleet on Turn 2 or even 3, seeing as a British fleet is not an immediate threat early especially if you sink their starting navy with your air/sea force.

[wodan46]

@I:

There’s one problem, you just gave Russia 2 rounds of much needed time to gain Territory, Units, and IPC’s.

With what?  If the Russians actually attack, they will suffer losses at a higher rate than Germany, something they can ill afford when Germany has a significantly larger budget than them anyway.

@I:

Because you said in your post above to mass subs on G2 (just like you did on G1).  So now your going to go almost exclusively Infantry?  Sounds pretty defense to me.  But that’s probably a good call because on UK2 and US2 turn……you’ll need to get everyone in their bomb shelters.  (Better hope they’re not HB’s)

Subs are a deterrent.  You only mass them if the enemy needs deterrence.  Building a Sub fleet on G2 instead, building 5 Subs and either 5 Infantry or 3 Tanks, might be doable.

@I:

OK sinks the American fleet with what? Transports?  You just spent all your IPC’s on Tech?  And if your going to sink my American fleet (which is subs)  how you gonna do that without Destroyers?  That tactic sounds familiar…now where did I hear that?  :wink:  Also how is Japan gonna pound Russia if you’re sinking all your IPC’s in Tech dice and Subs?  In order to pound Russia you gotta buy ground forces and Transports and keep shipping to the mainland.

You may notice that Japan has starting units.  This strategy works better if they use them.  The American fleet in the Pacific, by the start of A1, consists of a Destroyer, a Carrier, and 2 Fighters, with an additional pair of Fighters and Bombers that aren’t in range yet, but can quickly join up.  Japan’s Consists of 3 Carriers with as many as 6 Fighters, a Battleship, and a Cruiser.

J1: Tech Research*3
J2: If by now, you got Heavy Bombers, mass Bombers, if you get Jet Fighters, mass them and Carriers, if you get LRA, mass either, if you get Improved Shipyards, get a conventional fleet, if get Super Subs, Radar, or nothing, you should mass Subs and Bombers.

[a44bigdog]

The first post in this thread has links to the Abattlemap program and the AA50 files.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=12873.0

This thread explains how to play here using the forums.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=13365.0

Strategic theory is nice. And I do like seeing people thinking outside of the box. However without game play testing strategic theory is just that theory. This is also why I am not a big fan of mathematical evaluations either. Axis and Allies is not a balance sheet.

[wodan46]

@a44bigdog:

The first post in this thread has links to the Abattlemap program and the AA50 files.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=12873.0

This thread explains how to play here using the forums.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=13365.0

Strategic theory is nice. And I do like seeing people thinking outside of the box. However without game play testing strategic theory is just that theory. This is also why I am not a big fan of mathematical evaluations either. Axis and Allies is not a balance sheet.

Thanks, I’ll check it later today, when I get back to my room computer (I am abusing a library computer right now, and thus can’t

[Bluestroke]

Fleet Action, strategic-subs no, but as raiders, ambushers, Oh yeah…
On the other hand, I have been caught with my pants down, so to speak,
by having a CV and 2 FTR, being caught by two subs- it was not pretty- good bye IPC’s.  Keep several DD handy at all times-LOL.

[wodan46]

@a44bigdog:

The first post in this thread has links to the Abattlemap program and the AA50 files.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=12873.0

This thread explains how to play here using the forums.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=13365.0

Strategic theory is nice. And I do like seeing people thinking outside of the box. However without game play testing strategic theory is just that theory. This is also why I am not a big fan of mathematical evaluations either. Axis and Allies is not a balance sheet.

Used Winzip, but can’t get file to run, even after I extracted it.  Can open map though. Got it working, mostly.

[wodan46]

@Bluestroke:

Fleet Action, strategic-subs no, but as raiders, ambushers, Oh yeah…
On the other hand, I have been caught with my pants down, so to speak,
by having a CV and 2 FTR, being caught by two subs- it was not pretty- good bye IPC’s.  Keep several DD handy at all times-LOL.

I see no reason why Japan’s fleet action can’t consist entirely of raiding subs.  Scatter 6-12 Subs, with no more than 1 Sub per sea zone within range of a Destroyer, and America will be forced to invest in a fleet of Destroyers, which even if it is successful, has no actual ability to attack Japan proper, who probably has 50-70 Income.

[a44bigdog]

Wodan if you will read that second thread I posted it will explain battlemap. It is pretty much an electronic game board. It doesn’t really “run” or “do” anything. If you can open the maps it sounds like you have it working.

You might want to check out the play by forums section and play some games here to test some of your strategies. I am only around on weekends and already have 7 games in progress at the moment but I probably could get some rounds in against you next weekend.

[wodan46]

@a44bigdog:

Wodan if you will read that second thread I posted it will explain battlemap. It is pretty much an electronic game board. It doesn’t really “run” or “do” anything. If you can open the maps it sounds like you have it working.

You might want to check out the play by forums section and play some games here to test some of your strategies. I am only around on weekends and already have 7 games in progress at the moment but I probably could get some rounds in against you next weekend.

Ok.  I got Battlemap working to the point that I could place and remove units.  How do you scroll/zoom in/out?

[a44bigdog]

The + and - keys on the number pad of the keyboard control the zoom. However the unit icons do not change size with the levels of zoom so zooming far out to see the map can create issues.

Scrolling is done by holding the right mouse key and moving the mouse.

[Jennifer]

In a nutshell, submarines can be good additions to an already strong fleet or they can be a great method of keeping a cleared ocean yours.

However, in BOTH scenarios, you have to have a good surface fleet first.  Submarines are an after thought, something to augment your abilities much later.

[DY]

@a44bigdog:

The + and - keys on the number pad of the keyboard control the zoom.

LOL no jokes, I’ve been playing online for like 4 years and never knew that. Cool