German 1 purchase

[Rhineland]

I have had success with this when the russian dice have been average to bad. With a russian standard open belo and wru or ukr and wru. What would you do with this open?

This is my tournement combat and non-combat.

Purchase 1
3 ftrs 2 inf and 1 art

Combat
sz 13 (1 bb)
1 ss sz 8
1 ftr weu
1 ftr nwy
1 ftr grm
1 ftr eeu

SZ 15 ( 1 dst)
1 trn 1 inf and 1 art form seu from sz 14
1 bb sz 14
1 ftr ukr to sz 15

Egypt
1 inf and 1 art from trn in sz 15
1 ftr form blks
1 bmb grm
1 tank and 1 inf libya

len ( nothing)
3 inf nwy to len

NCM
1 inf 1 art algeria to libya
1 ftr and 1 bmb to libya from egypt
1 ftr sz15 to libya
4 ftrsw sz 13 to weu
3 inf grm to weu
1 inf blks to seu
2 tanks grm to eeu
2 tanks weu to eeu
1 tanks seu to eeu
1 inf and 1 tnk to eeu
1 inf belo to eeu
1 inf 1 art 1 tnk to eeu

Map can be found here.

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=13001.0

[SpartanJD01]

You lost your game.  When have you had luck with this strategy?

In response to this purchase, I would be very aggressive in a KGF strat, particularly with Russia, making sure Russia got the Norway IPC’s and then push forward.  UK1 would include a carrier and maybe more defense in subsequent rounds depending on how long u maintained all those planes.  But by UK 4-5 i would be moved into the Baltic so i can land 8 units in Karelia, while Russia moves into Ukr the next round.  Russia would be impossible to attack for Germany.  If Germany turtles, UK attacks full force into Western if possible or lands again in  EEwith US support landing(12 Units and fighters),  to follow for defense, Russian and Karelian Brits take EE.  Then its 1, 2, 3 assault on Germany either the next or following round.  Russia stops sending more troops after initial lurch and focuses on eastern defense (producing about 30 ipcs) US protecting persia route.

[Rhineland]

In house games mainly but it was working well in this game but the jap got massively dice grilled in a bad place. Everyone will lose in a big battle if their oppounent gets within the top 5 percentile.

Back to the strategy and my rebuttel to your suggestions. Russia is significantly at a disadvantage in equipment in the first few rounds and since this is a G1 purchase I don’t think this will really effect the game to much because they can only deadzone the front and not hold the gains without risking a hirrible battle. G2 will be most inf to reinforce the front lines while the americans and the british willh have to spend more money on navy and will be unable to enter into africa.

Japan will be left to do whatever they wish in the pacific and this will force the russias to devert attention from Germany. Espically if I figure out how to use the IC turn 1 correctly. I think it is still a stong buy if the dice turn out alright on R1.

[F6FHellcat]

Germany need more ground unit on Germany 1.  Fighter nice but Russia have Infantry to spare early compare to Germany along Russia-Germany front.  Germany not build land units, Fighter have not troop to take losses and take ground early.  That give Russia more income in following round making Russia more hard to kill.

You want more Fighter as Germany, bid protect Ukraine S.S.R. Fighter on Russia 1.  That give you 1 extra Fighter to begin.  Six Fighter and Bomber add to Infantry and Tank is enough to drive Russia back to Russia.

[Rhineland]

I agree that this build will make the eastern front inf starved but Russia wil not be able to exploit this if Japan is very agressive. Plus with 9 ftrs and 1 bmber to threaten the shipping lands or desimate the russians if they make an advance. I think this is opening can be used like the other standard opens for G1 like 10 inf 1 ftr or 10 inf 2 arm.

[SpartanJD01]

i still think in the game situation that you showed, Germany would be best served with a tank heavy purchase on G1 & G2 and really pushing the issue of an infantry depleted Russia.  Combine that with an aggressive Japan (hate J1 IC purchase) and I think by Turn 4-5 there should be a stack of 20 german tanks in caucuses and a load of inf protecting Germany, with Japan pushing 10 tanks a round toward Moscow, with some SBR’s against Russia starting on G3, there should be enough to take Moscow by T6-7.  You could do a Jap-Germ-Jap attack where Japan hits with Inf, Art, Tanks, Planes, and retreats before loosing Planes, Germany hits with its Tanks, a few Inf, and planes if available - may need for defense (as UK-US may have stopped the shuck to Karelia Novobrisk to get more troops to Europe) and then hit with Japan again 10 more armor and about 10 planes.

[Rhineland]

I dislike the heavy early purcahses of armor for Germany I think it makes the allies want to swamp them becuase they have low fodder.

I like the J1 IC in this game because you can start to keep the pressure on russia very early. Still trying to figure this thing out though. I will keep people posted.

[SpartanJD01]

I think the big problem with the J1 IC (and there are plenty of threads about it on here) is that Japan needs to get to 6 transports as soon as possible to transport troops off of mainland and attack islands.  If japan is left alone, those islands needs to fall to balance the ipc count and get Japan up to 50 ipcs to pump tanks to Russia.

I like to buy 3 on J1, and one each the next two rounds.  thats 7 units plus a trans. J4 and J5 come the ics, and should be in the upper 40s by then, so u can get 4 inf, 4 tanks, ic (47ipc) on J4, ic, aa gun, mix of inf, art, tanks on J5.  J6 and beyond, I like to concentrate on 10 armor, saving any extra ipcs for planes as they accumulate, as inf that are transported are 4 turns from the front.

Sail the fleets around the capes after taking Madacaskar/Afr. and NZ respectively, to merge and obstruct US Shuck.

[daggaz]

I agree with Spartan about Germany’s priorities.

Germany’s main priority is to take Moscow.  This may not be feasible, so it is acceptable that they severely weaken Moscow for a Japanese overthrow.  Those planes do little to help this, they are instead a (possibly major) hindrance to allied shipping.  That is a tertiary priority. The secondary priority is to take and hold Africa.  So this strategy, tho not broken, is absolutely not optimal.

I also make a huge tank build on G1 if Russia gets bad dice.  You wont have a lot of time to take advantage before Russia starts pumping out more inf and starts getting her first reinforcements, so dash dash dash! Its ok if you lose some armor, Germany needs to expand fast to help make up the money and put the heat on Moscow.  This should really help the Japs make a solid push at least up to Novo in the early part of the game.

With Russia on full defensive, Germany has plenty of time to build troops for the Fatherland, really with an income over 40+, it only takes 2 turns to get enough men to protect the core countries for a long time.  And if you are stacking up Karelia (with enough tanks its totally feasible), then you are probably holding Norway and as well you are using your main objective tools to simultaneously achieve your 3rd objective, stopping allied reinforcements.

That’s a lot more optimal.

That said, in a more normal game I do like to beef up the German airforce, albeit more slowly.  A bomber G1, a fig here and there afterwards.  Suddenly only having one BB to protect those 3 trannies when UK is thinking of snagging Norway in R3 or so is not looking like a smart move at all.

As for Japan, I always save 1 ipc from the axis bid for them.  2 trannies and an IC is just too good of a start.  Yes “technically” its not optimal when you consider the boats are cheaper and move tanks just as easily, but the point is having an early and advanced front.  The change in the power dynamic is maybe hard to measure quantitatively, but it is definitely worth it.  Then I build a trannie a turn until I am up to about four or five or so, depending on what exactly I am doing.  Tho if the allies made some big KJF moves and got real good dice, I might hold off on that IC purchase until Im sure I can hold it…

[Rhineland]

I will think you priorities are right but I think that this build allows the axis to get africa as well as slow the allies down by spending strongly on navy. Plus it gives the germans more flexility which is really nice. Then go for an economic grind out win.

I will say this is much harder to win compared to standard opens like ten 10 and 2 armor but it is also much less conventional in its turns.

[SpartanJD01]

i understand your though process on this.  I wonder if buying a bomber on G1 (can hit all important zones on G2 when the fighters can’t) and buying a fig on G2 and G3/G4 might accomplish your goals better?

[Rhineland]

You probably are right about the builds and this does not give russia the ability to get up to 30 IPC’s. Its not as flashy though.

[AxisOfEvil]

How about 1 bomber 1 fighter and 5 inf instead?  I love the German bomber r1, it threatens a landing in sz12 immediately. Also you have more r1 inf. Also, bombers are great for swapping eastern territory with Russia as they hit at 4, and have longer range, so you can keep your fighters home in France.

[Rhineland]

I like having 3 ftrs in france and 2 ftrs and 1 bmber in libya this makes sz 12 landing impossible. So I think having the bmber R1 is not needed for this but it does threaten allied shipping better however late game 9 german ftrs are hard to get threw in germany.

After this discussion I think 1 bmber and inf or 1 bm 1 ftr and inf is a better build for more situations but 3 ftrs is always fun to play.

[SpartanJD01]

in searching some old threads I came across a sold strategy to use your a/f purchase, though i think more than 2 figs is excessive.  The corresponding combat move is to move the baltic fleet and the sz 8 sub to sz 7, SE BB/trans + 2 figs to Gibralter BB, fig + bom, libya w/bid units to egypt.  Normal non-com of fig + bom in Libya, 2/3 figs in WE, one in EE, placement in germany.  If UK comes after the baltic fleet, try to submerge subs (depending on number of UK hits) Germ has the advantage of knowing how many sub hits inflicted before it needs to declare causulties.  Sub hits only go to ships, so if UK hits with BB, 2 tran, 2 figs, Bom, and the subs hit twice, those go to BB and a trans, if UK gets only 2 hits, you can keep all three subs for a chance to knock out the BB on second round of combat, or submerge (vulnerable to US BOm, fig if UK bought AC, and russian sub attack) and hit sz 7 with up to 8 figs, bom, subs, possible BB/tran)

[Jennifer]

It’s 2009 dear, why are you assuming Germany has a fighter in Ukraine and a fighter in Balkans?

[bongaroo]

I like 2 tanks and the rest infantry.  Need to get some numbers ready to push against russia with.

[ezto]

all infi

[KindWinds]

I have been doing some different buys.  Among them is the 4 Fighter purchase or a 2 bomber and 1 Fighter.  I like fighters over tanks because the fighters have staying power.  Unlike tanks they are very hard to counter attack.    I think the best advantage to buying 4 planes on G1 is the threat level because it both attacks and defends at the same time.  I am debating about what is best to defend aganist UK and USA landing anywhere.  I am trying a few variants.  Which ends up with Germ having 2 fighters in Norway, 2 in WE, 1 in Libya along with 1 Bomber.  Part of the strat is to Take AE with just libya forces backed by a bomber and fighter.  One then push’s SZ 13 with the BS and Trans loaded with 1 inf to unload on Gib.  The placement of fighters still gives me a bit of trouble because the UK can move around a bit.  I will also move the the SZ 5 Fleet around up to SZ 3 or Push 7 to force a response from the US to stop the fleet from combining.  I like SZ 6 to or SZ 5 each have a power all their own.  I have more to say but I am tired.  :mrgreen:

[eatenbyagrue]

@KindWinds:

I have been doing some different buys.  Among them is the 4 Fighter purchase or a 2 bomber and 1 Fighter.  I like fighters over tanks because the fighters have staying power.  Unlike tanks they are very hard to counter attack.    I think the best advantage to buying 4 planes on G1 is the threat level because it both attacks and defends at the same time.  I am debating about what is best to defend aganist UK and USA landing anywhere.  I am trying a few variants.  Which ends up with Germ having 2 fighters in Norway, 2 in WE, 1 in Libya along with 1 Bomber.  Part of the strat is to Take AE with just libya forces backed by a bomber and fighter.  One then push’s SZ 13 with the BS and Trans loaded with 1 inf to unload on Gib.  The placement of fighters still gives me a bit of trouble because the UK can move around a bit.  I will also move the the SZ 5 Fleet around up to SZ 3 or Push 7 to force a response from the US to stop the fleet from combining.  I like SZ 6 to or SZ 5 each have a power all their own.  I have more to say but I am tired.  :mrgreen:

I do not think either 4 fighters or 2 fig / 1 bmb is a good build on G1 for two reasons.  One, you already possess a substantial asset which can be used for the purpose of which you speak, attacking Allied shipping.  This asset is the 4-ship navy that is sitting in the Baltic.  So, to be most efficient, if you want to sink Allied ships, you can spend a little and make sure this fleet does not get sunk on B1, say by buying a destroyer for 12 IPC or carrier for 16 IPC, or hell even a BB for 24 IPC, instead of the 40 or 35 IPC you are talking about spending, which do absolutely nothing to protect your navy from aerial assault on B1.  Yes, fighters are dual purpose, whereas a ship is not, but the difference in cost is so large that I think it is worth it to invest in a ship here.  I would recommend the carrier over the other options.  Now, on subsequent turns, once the navy is set to hold up, you can slowly add to your collection of fighters while investing primarily on ground troops.  A powerful airforce will make sure the Allies fear to get within 2 spaces of your navy, or suffer sure annihilation from the combined air/naval assault that you can bring.

Second, spending so little on ground troops on G1 kinda sets you on the defensive too much against the Russians.  The goal for the Axis is Moscow, and spending 0 to 5 IPC round 1 on ground forces is a serious setback to that goal.  Fighters are support troops, they cannot capture or hold territory on their own.