Thank you Marc. Interesting indeed. No nothing of Harding, so nice to hear this story.
Lazy or working too hard?
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in nebraska the wage is 5.15 thats low :cry:
but kids 14-17 dont need to be daddy money bucks at that age. they’ll use it on their mobile fornication vehicle, drugs, and booze. some food in there from time to time.
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@M36:
Minimum wage in Connecticut is $7.55 an hour. You don’t find many jobs that actually pay that though, most employers pay at least eight.
Please inform me why a minimum wage is necessary again?
because without it than come a day when there is a glut of workers, then the US Army can offer peanuts and still be considered the most competative outfit out there for people who couldn’t/didn’t attend a college/university.
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Federal minimum wage is currently $5.15 - it’s set to raise to $7.25 within a couple of years. This is good, considering it sat at $5.15 for some time.
Any state can obviously elect to have a higher minimum wage, but it can’t go below the federal standard.
Unfortunately, the minimum wage is still below a livable wage. People making this (and they aren’t just kids) little can’t afford many of the things necessary for themselves and families besides the basic food, clothing, housing…
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It takes a heck of a lot of bad choices in life such that an adult would be orking for minimum wage; or for anyone to work for minimum wage for more than 3-6 months.
No job skills of merit, poor work ethic, lack of education… it pretty much takes ALL of those for an adult to be working for minimum wage.
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@ncscswitch:
It takes a heck of a lot of bad choices in life such that an adult would be orking for minimum wage; or for anyone to work for minimum wage for more than 3-6 months.
No job skills of merit, poor work ethic, lack of education… it pretty much takes ALL of those for an adult to be working for minimum wage.
I disagree.
Much of it can be circumstantial.
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Such as?
I will grant ONE excuse:
catastrophic physical injury/deformity caused by birth defect or accident over which the victim had no control.Can you name any others? (beware, I am merciless when I start pointing out the bad choices in this type of discussion)
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@ncscswitch:
Such as?
I will grant ONE excuse:
catastrophic physical injury/deformity caused by birth defect or accident over which the victim had no control.Can you name any others? (beware, I am merciless when I start pointing out the bad choices in this type of discussion)
mental disorders and shitty parenting.
I was lucky - i had good parents who didn’t mind being “the bad guy”. They made me do things i didn’t really feel like doing - like study instead of all-night-drinking-parties. They made me work to earn my own money for university etc. They spanked and praised me when i deserved it. They didn’t raise me while drunk, stealling stuff, or beating each other up. They didn’t let me do whatever i wanted. They didn’t drink/do cocaine when i was in utero (much). The called me on my bullshit.
I don’t often agree w/ BL, but he does have a point. A lot of parents raise their kids really really poorly, so these kids have a false-sense-of-entitlement, or they have no work-ethic, or they are psycho/sociopaths, or they have a mental illness/personality disorder. I know that often people can rise above this, and it kind of excites me to see it. But certain learned behaviours are “impossible” to unlearn and it is difficult to learn something that counteracts their previous learning which has become intuitive/instinctual/innate.
It’s not always a great excuse, but it is an important reason. -
Even with bad parenting, the child IS exposed to other options. And it is their choice whether or not to embrace them.
Too many people break free of such bad situations for it to NOT be a choice whether or not to surrender yourself to that environment.As for mental disorders:
I classify that as a birth type issue. And here I refer only to real and significant mental issues, not made up prescription selling schemes like ADD/ADHD -
@ncscswitch:
Even with bad parenting, the child IS exposed to other options. And it is their choice whether or not to embrace them.
Too many people break free of such bad situations for it to NOT be a choice whether or not to surrender yourself to that environment.As for mental disorders:
I classify that as a birth type issue. And here I refer only to real and significant mental issues, not made up prescription selling schemes like ADD/ADHDyou do have a point with your first, but i think that welfare/minimum wage is for those for whom the fight is too desparate/difficult.
as for ADD - you really should know something about a subject before you say something like this. Which is to say that i disagree with you to the nth degree, i have done the genetic/biochemistry/PET scanning etc./epidemiology/pathophysiological/research, and people who say this kind of crap really piss me off. You don’t have any idea what these children and their parents (and teachers/siblings etc.) are going through. ADD is not a matter of bad parenting, or “something in the oatmeal”. This is a legitimate axis I disorder.
Mind you, i guess if you are a scientologist, then of course this mentality would apply to all of the mental disorders . . . . Also - you might want to specify “real and significant” - i think much of what is “unreal and insignificant” to you is very real and significant to many of my patients, their caregivers, and ultimately society. -
@ncscswitch:
It takes a heck of a lot of bad choices in life such that an adult would be orking for minimum wage; or for anyone to work for minimum wage for more than 3-6 months.
No job skills of merit, poor work ethic, lack of education… it pretty much takes ALL of those for an adult to be working for minimum wage.
I’ll agree with you here. Barring a catastrophic event (amputee, mental disability, etc) any adult who is in a minimum wage job for more than 6 months is not making good choices.
The catastrophic events have safety nets to one degree or another so I don’t see the minimum wage as a significant issue for them. For example, the HOPE Foundation employees who sweep our parking lots and pickup trash off the beach are earing minimum wage but they are also collecting disability and SSI along with the living assistance that HOPE provides them. This is a more productive (and enjoyable?) life than being warehoused or at least it would seem so since they volunteer for this work to get out of the institutional environment.
In personal experience, even the lowest level of “skilled” labor is close to double the minimum wage and if you make it past the 90 day “provisional” point it goes up.
As for vacation, every company I have ever interviewed or worked for offered paid vacation to full-time employees. It was not 6 weeks worth in your first year but it was always at least two weeks and it was in addition to paid holidays and seperate from sick leave. Additionally, longevity at every company has increased the vacation allotment per year.
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As a former victim of Ridalin (however it is spelled) who was drugged up due to the SHEER BOREDOM of being a mainstreamed gifted child in a government school…
Again, I would disagree with you on ADD/ADHD.
Isn;t it amazing that this disease ONLY appeared AFTER we had these neat psychoactive drugs to treat them? And after we had drugged almost all of the kids into oblivion, then POOF! Adult ADD/ADHD is “discovered” and sales of those psychoactive drugs continue to climb…
You are a doctor…
What blood test identifies ADD/ADHD? What shows up on a CT scan to diagnose it?
Or is it, as it was with me, that a teacher or other “official” says “There is a problem with Junior’s behavior. He needs to be on this drug” and then the drug is prescibed, and low and behold… the tranquilized child is no longer a behavior problem. He may sleep through 8 hours of school, but he no longer has behavior issues.Ridalin lowered me from an A student to a C student (not bad for sleeping through 2 9-week grading periods) before I was taken off… then POOF! Once I was no longer drugged senseless, back to an A student again… and 6 months later off to Gifted Education for me… and no more behavior problems…
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Ahh - i see how it works. You had a bad experience on a pharmaceutical, so the disorder does not exist. This is like people who have a bad experience in a church and pillory Christianity.
I’ve already explained there is a mountain of evidence that the disorder exists. But there are MANY disorders that have only come to light in the last century (btw - ADD existed a LONG time before there were pharmaceuticals, but it was called “minimal brain dysfunction” then). At any rate - you seem pretty convinced regardless of the amount of evidence - as long as you have your worldview, then the work of thousands of researchers, psychiatrists and psychologists is of no regard.
note too - Ritalin is a “stimulant” - a reaction that occurs in direct contradiction to the putative mode of action is referred to as “idiosyncratic”. It happens from time to time as nothing is 100% predictable . . . except for that statement, i suppose. -
Right, I am just talking from negative personal experience.
No one else is saying things like this…
There is no definitive objective set of criteria to determine who has ADD/ADHD and who does not. Rather, instead, there are a loose set of behaviors (hyperactivity, distractibility, and impulsivity) that combine in different ways to give rise to the “disorder.” These behaviors are highly context-dependent.
http://www.thomasarmstrong.com/myth_add_adhd.htm
No one is asking questions about the rise in psychoactive drug use (LEGAL drugs in this case) by children of all ages.
Ritalin use is up 500% over the past six years
http://www.thomasarmstrong.com/myth_add_adhd.htm
No one is commenting that what once was a rare psychiatric issue now effects…
this baffling disorder that appears to have claimed approximately 20% of the population.
http://www.sunherb.com/myth_of_add_and_adhd.htm
Oh and CC. when did you become a psychiatrist? I thought you were an ER doctor, and ADD was (until the 1970’s) a VERY RARE disorder that was one of those minor “isn’t that interesting” areas of study in very specialised areas of psychiatry. I did not know that it now had a physiological component (other than the drugging of kids into oblivion)
I would think as an MD you would be more concerned with factors such as
The Physician’s Desk Reference states that “sufficient data on the safety and efficacy of long term use of Ritalin in children is not yet available.”
http://www.sunherb.com/myth_of_add_and_adhd.htm
And furthermore I would think that, as a physician, you would be dedicated to CURING thse ailments…
nervousness, decreased appetite, insomnia, stomachaches, headaches, dizziness, drowsiness, nausea, skin rashes, abdominal pain, weight loss, visual problems, changes in heart rate and rhythm, changes in blood pressure, generalized ill feeling, depression, restricted creativity, crying easily, lowered seizure threshold, stunted growth, and psychic dependence.
rather than advocate their continued infliction on CHILDREN.
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@ncscswitch:
Right, I am just talking from negative personal experience.
No one else is saying things like this…
There is no definitive objective set of criteria to determine who has ADD/ADHD and who does not. Rather, instead, there are a loose set of behaviors (hyperactivity, distractibility, and impulsivity) that combine in different ways to give rise to the “disorder.” These behaviors are highly context-dependent.
There are NUMEROUS tests, rating scales, etc. that are used to evaluate to see if a person has ADHD. The DSM-IV lists specific criteria. Also nearly all psychiatric disorders require context. This is because certain behaviours in certain contexts are considered to be appropriate, other behaviours in certain contexts are considered to be symptoms of a psychiatric disorder.
Cheering at a pep-rally vs. at a funeral. Praying to God in a church/religious community vs. discussing politics with your invisible friend Bob. etc.No one is asking questions about the rise in psychoactive drug use (LEGAL drugs in this case) by children of all ages.
Ritalin use is up 500% over the past six years
interesting given that Ritalin is generic, and that no pharmaceutical company is marketting it.
Or did this occur during the 6 years after Ritalin was first promoted? Regardless - this is a poor point. A new pharmaceutical will grow at an astonishing rate when it first comes out - especially if it is first-in-class. If no one used it - it wouldn’t grow. If one person was Rx’d Ritalin in year 1, and 10 people were Rx’d in year 6 - Holy Shit!! That’s a 1000% growth!!! In only 6 years!!!No one is commenting that what once was a rare psychiatric issue now effects…
this baffling disorder that appears to have claimed approximately 20% of the population.
i really don’t know where these people get these figures. Commonly accepted figures in the psychiatric community are ~ 4-6% in school-children, ~2% in adults.
Oh and CC. when did you become a psychiatrist? I thought you were an ER doctor, and ADD was (until the 1970’s) a VERY RARE disorder that was one of those minor “isn’t that interesting” areas of study in very specialised areas of psychiatry. I did not know that it now had a physiological component (other than the drugging of kids into oblivion)
Does this matter? I work in the ER, but i have a private practice where i do CBT, psychotherapy, and about 30% of my work is psychiatric. I also do minor surgeries, and a whole bunch of other stuff. Some doctors even KNOW stuff too!!
Also - just because you feel that you were “drugged into oblivion” - don’t drag everyone else into it. Your bias in this area is pretty transparent. Try for a moment to be just a tiny bit objective.I would think as an MD you would be more concerned with factors such as
The Physician’s Desk Reference states that “sufficient data on the safety and efficacy of long term use of Ritalin in children is not yet available.”
it depends on what your definition of “is” is. REally - these guys have a VERY different definition of “sufficient” than the psychiatric world. There are many studies which have demonstrated the safety of this particulat class of stimulents.
(how did this get segue’d from a discussion of the validity of ADHD as a real disorder? Or have you given up the point to me and are just trying to score some points against the doctor?)And furthermore I would think that, as a physician, you would be dedicated to CURING thse ailments…
nervousness, decreased appetite, insomnia, stomachaches, headaches, dizziness, drowsiness, nausea, skin rashes, abdominal pain, weight loss, visual problems, changes in heart rate and rhythm, changes in blood pressure, generalized ill feeling, depression, restricted creativity, crying easily, lowered seizure threshold, stunted growth, and psychic dependence.
I do treat these ailments. Did you know that you can drown in water? Or that too much can have a profound osmotic effect on your brain related to cerebro-pontine myolinolysis? Nutmeg can cause hallucinations, Asparin can cause GI bleeds, tylenol can cause liver toxicity, many common cold remedies can cause death. The fact is everything we use can cause side-effects. I don’t know how it is in the US, but good doctors actually monitor for these things, use them in appropriate doses, and tend to not use them in people on Talwin.
rather than advocate their continued infliction on CHILDREN.
anything that will help these children have a better quality of life, decrease their propensity to criminal behaviour/incarcerations/car accidents/sexually inappropriate behaviour/early pregnancy/unemployment/caregiver stress etc.
You should read an actual STUDY sometime. Not the usual scientology bullshit (unless you’re a scientologist - in which case do me the courtesy of alerting me to this fact so i can stop banging my head against the wall and simply nod my head and say "yes - you’re right . . . psychiatry has no studies, yes, you’re right - no one committed suicide until anti-depressants were created, yes you’re right - psychiatrists never look for medical causes of psychiatric phenomenon, yes - you’re right - it was right of Tom Cruise to berate Brooke Shields for her post-partum depression and denying Katie pain relief for her childbirth) -
Short for tiem this AM, but one quick point…
Ritalin, as you pointed out is not a “new” drug that is being marketted heavilly.
Can you name any other drug that is beyond patent restriction time frame that has experienced that kind of growth in prescriptions?
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@ncscswitch:
Short for tiem this AM, but one quick point…
Ritalin, as you pointed out is not a “new” drug that is being marketted heavilly.
Can you name any other drug that is beyond patent restriction time frame that has experienced that kind of growth in prescriptions?
does it matter? What does this have to do w/ ADHD as a legitimate disorder?
Furthermore - if ADHD were simply a pharmaceutical marketing ploy, then we would expect to see a decline in the use of Ritalin as children “grow out of ADHD” and it is no longer promoted (or at least a decrease in the rate of growth. I think that there is more research coming out on Ritalin, people are realizing that there may actually BE something to this entity, and as the benefits are realized, then its an appropriate choice.
As for your question - i do not know, but i really have to know the time period specified, the nation, the timeline of Ritalin in that country, its relationship to the new scientific literature, etc. -
Quite the contrary CC. Ritalin sales growth continues to increase with the recent “discovery” of Adult ADD/ADHD.
Amazing… Parents and tachers were able to handle these mentally ill people for decades without drugs, now suddenly we have literally MILLIONS of children, and MILLIONS more adults on psychoactive drugs whose sole purpose is to overload their system and cause it to partially shut down.
And one final thought…
Is it a mere conincidence that corporal punishment went out at the same time as the ADD/ADHD epidemic exploded? Perhaps a safer method of dealing with ADD/ADHD (without all of those health risks listed above) is a simple swat on the ass with a wooden paddle (which apparently was how we handled ADD/ADHD students for untold decades in this nation, to quit solid effect, and without making our kids comatose in class)Now, we can continue to argue ADD/ADHD, or we can get back to anyone who wants to disagree with my hypothesis that in NEARLY all cases, people who are “disadvantaged” are that way as a result of the accumulation of personal choices in their lives.
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Switch.
How about the bottom 5% of the population?
Lets pretend we can find someone in the bottom 5% who has not resorted to drugs or alcohol to salve their wounded sense of self. Are they worthy of assistance?
What if they have used (drug of your choice) but are clean now?
What if they have suffered some bad choices that they made by virtue of being a bottom 5%er? Are they still worthy of assistance or not. For example, lets try the unwed 16 y/o with child who actually believed her boyfriend when he said virgins can’t get pregnant.
She definitely qualifies as mouth breather but is she not worthy of assistance because she is too stupid to breathe through her nose?
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My response to that Baghdaddy is…
Does she pick herself up by her bootstraps, finish her HS education, take some night classes, and work to advance herself?
If so… SURE, I’ll personally help that person out.
However, if she becomes a brood mare (like this 20 year old unemployed person with the 21 year old unemployed baby-daddy in Texas that is popping out her 3rd set of twins and her 6th and 7th children overall… HELL NO I am not paying for that.
If I want to pay a breeder, I’ll pay a horse breeder where I might get a return on my investment. People Breeding does not seem to be a cash positive endeavor…
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@ncscswitch:
Quite the contrary CC. Ritalin sales growth continues to increase with the recent “discovery” of Adult ADD/ADHD.
despite the fact that it is not marketted . . . i’d say that this goes against whatever little consumer-marketting theory you have. But it just makes sense that if you have a growing population with a disorder affecting a (relatively) fixed percent of the population, with an increased in awareness of this disorder by paediatric practitioners, then it’s possible that more people will be dx’d and tx’d.
Amazing… Parents and tachers were able to handle these mentally ill people for decades without drugs, now suddenly we have literally MILLIONS of children, and MILLIONS more adults on psychoactive drugs whose sole purpose is to overload their system and cause it to partially shut down.
you’ve stopped making sense, by the way.
Also note that the first sentance of this could refer to hypertension, high cholesterol, many psychiatric disorders, and a bunch of blood dyscraisias that only become obvious in older age, also dementia etc.And one final thought…
Is it a mere conincidence that corporal punishment went out at the same time as the ADD/ADHD epidemic exploded? Perhaps a safer method of dealing with ADD/ADHD (without all of those health risks listed above) is a simple swat on the a** with a wooden paddle (which apparently was how we handled ADD/ADHD students for untold decades in this nation, to quit solid effect, and without making our kids comatose in class)yet - you had a problem with ritalin, and this translates to “no one has ADHD”.
And how does a swat on the butt help someone with inattention who falls through the cracks with suboptimal performance? Furthermore i had addressed this point earlier by pointing out that ADHD has been around for well over 100 years under another name. Must we argue in circles?Now, we can continue to argue ADD/ADHD, or we can get back to anyone who wants to disagree with my hypothesis that in NEARLY all cases, people who are “disadvantaged” are that way as a result of the accumulation of personal choices in their lives.
i think you are the one who started the bizarrely paranoid and completely inaccurate diatribes on ADHD. I was simply seeking to remedy the crap that i was reading on the screen.
And until you’ve walked a mile in the shoes of someone who is “borderline personality disordered” this is a grotesquely unfair statement.
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