Thank you Marc. Interesting indeed. No nothing of Harding, so nice to hear this story.
Lazy or working too hard?
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@ncscswitch:
Such as?
I will grant ONE excuse:
catastrophic physical injury/deformity caused by birth defect or accident over which the victim had no control.Can you name any others? (beware, I am merciless when I start pointing out the bad choices in this type of discussion)
mental disorders and shitty parenting.
I was lucky - i had good parents who didn’t mind being “the bad guy”. They made me do things i didn’t really feel like doing - like study instead of all-night-drinking-parties. They made me work to earn my own money for university etc. They spanked and praised me when i deserved it. They didn’t raise me while drunk, stealling stuff, or beating each other up. They didn’t let me do whatever i wanted. They didn’t drink/do cocaine when i was in utero (much). The called me on my bullshit.
I don’t often agree w/ BL, but he does have a point. A lot of parents raise their kids really really poorly, so these kids have a false-sense-of-entitlement, or they have no work-ethic, or they are psycho/sociopaths, or they have a mental illness/personality disorder. I know that often people can rise above this, and it kind of excites me to see it. But certain learned behaviours are “impossible” to unlearn and it is difficult to learn something that counteracts their previous learning which has become intuitive/instinctual/innate.
It’s not always a great excuse, but it is an important reason. -
Even with bad parenting, the child IS exposed to other options. And it is their choice whether or not to embrace them.
Too many people break free of such bad situations for it to NOT be a choice whether or not to surrender yourself to that environment.As for mental disorders:
I classify that as a birth type issue. And here I refer only to real and significant mental issues, not made up prescription selling schemes like ADD/ADHD -
@ncscswitch:
Even with bad parenting, the child IS exposed to other options. And it is their choice whether or not to embrace them.
Too many people break free of such bad situations for it to NOT be a choice whether or not to surrender yourself to that environment.As for mental disorders:
I classify that as a birth type issue. And here I refer only to real and significant mental issues, not made up prescription selling schemes like ADD/ADHDyou do have a point with your first, but i think that welfare/minimum wage is for those for whom the fight is too desparate/difficult.
as for ADD - you really should know something about a subject before you say something like this. Which is to say that i disagree with you to the nth degree, i have done the genetic/biochemistry/PET scanning etc./epidemiology/pathophysiological/research, and people who say this kind of crap really piss me off. You don’t have any idea what these children and their parents (and teachers/siblings etc.) are going through. ADD is not a matter of bad parenting, or “something in the oatmeal”. This is a legitimate axis I disorder.
Mind you, i guess if you are a scientologist, then of course this mentality would apply to all of the mental disorders . . . . Also - you might want to specify “real and significant” - i think much of what is “unreal and insignificant” to you is very real and significant to many of my patients, their caregivers, and ultimately society. -
@ncscswitch:
It takes a heck of a lot of bad choices in life such that an adult would be orking for minimum wage; or for anyone to work for minimum wage for more than 3-6 months.
No job skills of merit, poor work ethic, lack of education… it pretty much takes ALL of those for an adult to be working for minimum wage.
I’ll agree with you here. Barring a catastrophic event (amputee, mental disability, etc) any adult who is in a minimum wage job for more than 6 months is not making good choices.
The catastrophic events have safety nets to one degree or another so I don’t see the minimum wage as a significant issue for them. For example, the HOPE Foundation employees who sweep our parking lots and pickup trash off the beach are earing minimum wage but they are also collecting disability and SSI along with the living assistance that HOPE provides them. This is a more productive (and enjoyable?) life than being warehoused or at least it would seem so since they volunteer for this work to get out of the institutional environment.
In personal experience, even the lowest level of “skilled” labor is close to double the minimum wage and if you make it past the 90 day “provisional” point it goes up.
As for vacation, every company I have ever interviewed or worked for offered paid vacation to full-time employees. It was not 6 weeks worth in your first year but it was always at least two weeks and it was in addition to paid holidays and seperate from sick leave. Additionally, longevity at every company has increased the vacation allotment per year.
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As a former victim of Ridalin (however it is spelled) who was drugged up due to the SHEER BOREDOM of being a mainstreamed gifted child in a government school…
Again, I would disagree with you on ADD/ADHD.
Isn;t it amazing that this disease ONLY appeared AFTER we had these neat psychoactive drugs to treat them? And after we had drugged almost all of the kids into oblivion, then POOF! Adult ADD/ADHD is “discovered” and sales of those psychoactive drugs continue to climb…
You are a doctor…
What blood test identifies ADD/ADHD? What shows up on a CT scan to diagnose it?
Or is it, as it was with me, that a teacher or other “official” says “There is a problem with Junior’s behavior. He needs to be on this drug” and then the drug is prescibed, and low and behold… the tranquilized child is no longer a behavior problem. He may sleep through 8 hours of school, but he no longer has behavior issues.Ridalin lowered me from an A student to a C student (not bad for sleeping through 2 9-week grading periods) before I was taken off… then POOF! Once I was no longer drugged senseless, back to an A student again… and 6 months later off to Gifted Education for me… and no more behavior problems…
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Ahh - i see how it works. You had a bad experience on a pharmaceutical, so the disorder does not exist. This is like people who have a bad experience in a church and pillory Christianity.
I’ve already explained there is a mountain of evidence that the disorder exists. But there are MANY disorders that have only come to light in the last century (btw - ADD existed a LONG time before there were pharmaceuticals, but it was called “minimal brain dysfunction” then). At any rate - you seem pretty convinced regardless of the amount of evidence - as long as you have your worldview, then the work of thousands of researchers, psychiatrists and psychologists is of no regard.
note too - Ritalin is a “stimulant” - a reaction that occurs in direct contradiction to the putative mode of action is referred to as “idiosyncratic”. It happens from time to time as nothing is 100% predictable . . . except for that statement, i suppose. -
Right, I am just talking from negative personal experience.
No one else is saying things like this…
There is no definitive objective set of criteria to determine who has ADD/ADHD and who does not. Rather, instead, there are a loose set of behaviors (hyperactivity, distractibility, and impulsivity) that combine in different ways to give rise to the “disorder.” These behaviors are highly context-dependent.
http://www.thomasarmstrong.com/myth_add_adhd.htm
No one is asking questions about the rise in psychoactive drug use (LEGAL drugs in this case) by children of all ages.
Ritalin use is up 500% over the past six years
http://www.thomasarmstrong.com/myth_add_adhd.htm
No one is commenting that what once was a rare psychiatric issue now effects…
this baffling disorder that appears to have claimed approximately 20% of the population.
http://www.sunherb.com/myth_of_add_and_adhd.htm
Oh and CC. when did you become a psychiatrist? I thought you were an ER doctor, and ADD was (until the 1970’s) a VERY RARE disorder that was one of those minor “isn’t that interesting” areas of study in very specialised areas of psychiatry. I did not know that it now had a physiological component (other than the drugging of kids into oblivion)
I would think as an MD you would be more concerned with factors such as
The Physician’s Desk Reference states that “sufficient data on the safety and efficacy of long term use of Ritalin in children is not yet available.”
http://www.sunherb.com/myth_of_add_and_adhd.htm
And furthermore I would think that, as a physician, you would be dedicated to CURING thse ailments…
nervousness, decreased appetite, insomnia, stomachaches, headaches, dizziness, drowsiness, nausea, skin rashes, abdominal pain, weight loss, visual problems, changes in heart rate and rhythm, changes in blood pressure, generalized ill feeling, depression, restricted creativity, crying easily, lowered seizure threshold, stunted growth, and psychic dependence.
rather than advocate their continued infliction on CHILDREN.
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@ncscswitch:
Right, I am just talking from negative personal experience.
No one else is saying things like this…
There is no definitive objective set of criteria to determine who has ADD/ADHD and who does not. Rather, instead, there are a loose set of behaviors (hyperactivity, distractibility, and impulsivity) that combine in different ways to give rise to the “disorder.” These behaviors are highly context-dependent.
There are NUMEROUS tests, rating scales, etc. that are used to evaluate to see if a person has ADHD. The DSM-IV lists specific criteria. Also nearly all psychiatric disorders require context. This is because certain behaviours in certain contexts are considered to be appropriate, other behaviours in certain contexts are considered to be symptoms of a psychiatric disorder.
Cheering at a pep-rally vs. at a funeral. Praying to God in a church/religious community vs. discussing politics with your invisible friend Bob. etc.No one is asking questions about the rise in psychoactive drug use (LEGAL drugs in this case) by children of all ages.
Ritalin use is up 500% over the past six years
interesting given that Ritalin is generic, and that no pharmaceutical company is marketting it.
Or did this occur during the 6 years after Ritalin was first promoted? Regardless - this is a poor point. A new pharmaceutical will grow at an astonishing rate when it first comes out - especially if it is first-in-class. If no one used it - it wouldn’t grow. If one person was Rx’d Ritalin in year 1, and 10 people were Rx’d in year 6 - Holy Shit!! That’s a 1000% growth!!! In only 6 years!!!No one is commenting that what once was a rare psychiatric issue now effects…
this baffling disorder that appears to have claimed approximately 20% of the population.
i really don’t know where these people get these figures. Commonly accepted figures in the psychiatric community are ~ 4-6% in school-children, ~2% in adults.
Oh and CC. when did you become a psychiatrist? I thought you were an ER doctor, and ADD was (until the 1970’s) a VERY RARE disorder that was one of those minor “isn’t that interesting” areas of study in very specialised areas of psychiatry. I did not know that it now had a physiological component (other than the drugging of kids into oblivion)
Does this matter? I work in the ER, but i have a private practice where i do CBT, psychotherapy, and about 30% of my work is psychiatric. I also do minor surgeries, and a whole bunch of other stuff. Some doctors even KNOW stuff too!!
Also - just because you feel that you were “drugged into oblivion” - don’t drag everyone else into it. Your bias in this area is pretty transparent. Try for a moment to be just a tiny bit objective.I would think as an MD you would be more concerned with factors such as
The Physician’s Desk Reference states that “sufficient data on the safety and efficacy of long term use of Ritalin in children is not yet available.”
it depends on what your definition of “is” is. REally - these guys have a VERY different definition of “sufficient” than the psychiatric world. There are many studies which have demonstrated the safety of this particulat class of stimulents.
(how did this get segue’d from a discussion of the validity of ADHD as a real disorder? Or have you given up the point to me and are just trying to score some points against the doctor?)And furthermore I would think that, as a physician, you would be dedicated to CURING thse ailments…
nervousness, decreased appetite, insomnia, stomachaches, headaches, dizziness, drowsiness, nausea, skin rashes, abdominal pain, weight loss, visual problems, changes in heart rate and rhythm, changes in blood pressure, generalized ill feeling, depression, restricted creativity, crying easily, lowered seizure threshold, stunted growth, and psychic dependence.
I do treat these ailments. Did you know that you can drown in water? Or that too much can have a profound osmotic effect on your brain related to cerebro-pontine myolinolysis? Nutmeg can cause hallucinations, Asparin can cause GI bleeds, tylenol can cause liver toxicity, many common cold remedies can cause death. The fact is everything we use can cause side-effects. I don’t know how it is in the US, but good doctors actually monitor for these things, use them in appropriate doses, and tend to not use them in people on Talwin.
rather than advocate their continued infliction on CHILDREN.
anything that will help these children have a better quality of life, decrease their propensity to criminal behaviour/incarcerations/car accidents/sexually inappropriate behaviour/early pregnancy/unemployment/caregiver stress etc.
You should read an actual STUDY sometime. Not the usual scientology bullshit (unless you’re a scientologist - in which case do me the courtesy of alerting me to this fact so i can stop banging my head against the wall and simply nod my head and say "yes - you’re right . . . psychiatry has no studies, yes, you’re right - no one committed suicide until anti-depressants were created, yes you’re right - psychiatrists never look for medical causes of psychiatric phenomenon, yes - you’re right - it was right of Tom Cruise to berate Brooke Shields for her post-partum depression and denying Katie pain relief for her childbirth) -
Short for tiem this AM, but one quick point…
Ritalin, as you pointed out is not a “new” drug that is being marketted heavilly.
Can you name any other drug that is beyond patent restriction time frame that has experienced that kind of growth in prescriptions?
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@ncscswitch:
Short for tiem this AM, but one quick point…
Ritalin, as you pointed out is not a “new” drug that is being marketted heavilly.
Can you name any other drug that is beyond patent restriction time frame that has experienced that kind of growth in prescriptions?
does it matter? What does this have to do w/ ADHD as a legitimate disorder?
Furthermore - if ADHD were simply a pharmaceutical marketing ploy, then we would expect to see a decline in the use of Ritalin as children “grow out of ADHD” and it is no longer promoted (or at least a decrease in the rate of growth. I think that there is more research coming out on Ritalin, people are realizing that there may actually BE something to this entity, and as the benefits are realized, then its an appropriate choice.
As for your question - i do not know, but i really have to know the time period specified, the nation, the timeline of Ritalin in that country, its relationship to the new scientific literature, etc. -
Quite the contrary CC. Ritalin sales growth continues to increase with the recent “discovery” of Adult ADD/ADHD.
Amazing… Parents and tachers were able to handle these mentally ill people for decades without drugs, now suddenly we have literally MILLIONS of children, and MILLIONS more adults on psychoactive drugs whose sole purpose is to overload their system and cause it to partially shut down.
And one final thought…
Is it a mere conincidence that corporal punishment went out at the same time as the ADD/ADHD epidemic exploded? Perhaps a safer method of dealing with ADD/ADHD (without all of those health risks listed above) is a simple swat on the ass with a wooden paddle (which apparently was how we handled ADD/ADHD students for untold decades in this nation, to quit solid effect, and without making our kids comatose in class)Now, we can continue to argue ADD/ADHD, or we can get back to anyone who wants to disagree with my hypothesis that in NEARLY all cases, people who are “disadvantaged” are that way as a result of the accumulation of personal choices in their lives.
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Switch.
How about the bottom 5% of the population?
Lets pretend we can find someone in the bottom 5% who has not resorted to drugs or alcohol to salve their wounded sense of self. Are they worthy of assistance?
What if they have used (drug of your choice) but are clean now?
What if they have suffered some bad choices that they made by virtue of being a bottom 5%er? Are they still worthy of assistance or not. For example, lets try the unwed 16 y/o with child who actually believed her boyfriend when he said virgins can’t get pregnant.
She definitely qualifies as mouth breather but is she not worthy of assistance because she is too stupid to breathe through her nose?
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My response to that Baghdaddy is…
Does she pick herself up by her bootstraps, finish her HS education, take some night classes, and work to advance herself?
If so… SURE, I’ll personally help that person out.
However, if she becomes a brood mare (like this 20 year old unemployed person with the 21 year old unemployed baby-daddy in Texas that is popping out her 3rd set of twins and her 6th and 7th children overall… HELL NO I am not paying for that.
If I want to pay a breeder, I’ll pay a horse breeder where I might get a return on my investment. People Breeding does not seem to be a cash positive endeavor…
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@ncscswitch:
Quite the contrary CC. Ritalin sales growth continues to increase with the recent “discovery” of Adult ADD/ADHD.
despite the fact that it is not marketted . . . i’d say that this goes against whatever little consumer-marketting theory you have. But it just makes sense that if you have a growing population with a disorder affecting a (relatively) fixed percent of the population, with an increased in awareness of this disorder by paediatric practitioners, then it’s possible that more people will be dx’d and tx’d.
Amazing… Parents and tachers were able to handle these mentally ill people for decades without drugs, now suddenly we have literally MILLIONS of children, and MILLIONS more adults on psychoactive drugs whose sole purpose is to overload their system and cause it to partially shut down.
you’ve stopped making sense, by the way.
Also note that the first sentance of this could refer to hypertension, high cholesterol, many psychiatric disorders, and a bunch of blood dyscraisias that only become obvious in older age, also dementia etc.And one final thought…
Is it a mere conincidence that corporal punishment went out at the same time as the ADD/ADHD epidemic exploded? Perhaps a safer method of dealing with ADD/ADHD (without all of those health risks listed above) is a simple swat on the a** with a wooden paddle (which apparently was how we handled ADD/ADHD students for untold decades in this nation, to quit solid effect, and without making our kids comatose in class)yet - you had a problem with ritalin, and this translates to “no one has ADHD”.
And how does a swat on the butt help someone with inattention who falls through the cracks with suboptimal performance? Furthermore i had addressed this point earlier by pointing out that ADHD has been around for well over 100 years under another name. Must we argue in circles?Now, we can continue to argue ADD/ADHD, or we can get back to anyone who wants to disagree with my hypothesis that in NEARLY all cases, people who are “disadvantaged” are that way as a result of the accumulation of personal choices in their lives.
i think you are the one who started the bizarrely paranoid and completely inaccurate diatribes on ADHD. I was simply seeking to remedy the crap that i was reading on the screen.
And until you’ve walked a mile in the shoes of someone who is “borderline personality disordered” this is a grotesquely unfair statement. -
I don;t consider ADD/ADHD to be a a valid EXCUSE to people to use for not being successful. Ritalin I MIGHT allow as an excuse, but that is a choice… you can choose to not take it.
And, regardless of your perspective on this… I refuse to believe that ADD/ADHD IF it is a real clinical disease is as prevalent as it must be based on Ritalin Rx’s.
If the masive growth in scrips for it are simply because of “increased awareness” and if it is such a terrible, terrible thing… then how in the hell did we survive as a nation with all these untreated ADD/ADHD folks around?
I am willing to bet that 9 out of 10 kids currently on Ritalin have no real need for psychoactive drugs. Those folks are an assortment of kids that are drugged to make a teacher’s life easier, or a parent’s, or they were put on it as a replacement for discipline, etc. Maybe, just MAYBE 1 out of 10 actually has some disorder that causes attention/activity issues. Of those 1 in 10, I would also bet that many of them are no where near so severe that they require psychoactive drugs.
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@ncscswitch:
I don;t consider ADD/ADHD to be a a valid EXCUSE to people to use for not being successful. Ritalin I MIGHT allow as an excuse, but that is a choice… you can choose to not take it.
And, regardless of your perspective on this… I refuse to believe that ADD/ADHD IF it is a real clinical disease is as prevalent as it must be based on Ritalin Rx’s.
If the masive growth in scrips for it are simply because of “increased awareness” and if it is such a terrible, terrible thing… then how in the hell did we survive as a nation with all these untreated ADD/ADHD folks around?
I am willing to bet that 9 out of 10 kids currently on Ritalin have no real need for psychoactive drugs. Those folks are an assortment of kids that are drugged to make a teacher’s life easier, or a parent’s, or they were put on it as a replacement for discipline, etc. Maybe, just MAYBE 1 out of 10 actually has some disorder that causes attention/activity issues. Of those 1 in 10, I would also bet that many of them are no where near so severe that they require psychoactive drugs.
i am very curious as to the nature, quality, quanitity, and legitimacy of all of the studies that are available to back up your claims, refuting the medical literature that has recently emerged demonstrating a very significant difference in a number of QOL measures in treated vs. untreated ADHD children.
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Quality of life by being on Ritalin?
On August 21, the Food & Drug Administration added its strongest warning label – a “Black Box” label – to Ritalin, Adderall, Focalin, Methylin, Metadate, Concerta and similar medications used to treat attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). The decision was based on reports of sudden death, heart attacks, strokes and hypertension among childern and adult users of Ritalin.
The studies you mention about Ritalin being the best way to control ADD/ADHD… you mean things like this flawed study?
However, an examination of the MTA study reveals several gross methodological flaws that undermine its scientific validity and limit any conclusions that may be drawn from it.
http://www.breggin.com/mta.html
And really… this sounds like a laundry list of things we all WANT for our children…
• The use of methylphenidate in children may cause suppression of growth. Growth should be monitored during treatment and children who are not growing or gaining weight as expected may need to have their treatment interrupted. Talk to your doctor if you have questions.
• If you experience any of the following serious side effects, stop taking methylphenidate and seek emergency medical attention or contact your doctor immediately:
· an allergic reaction (difficulty breathing; closing of the throat; swelling of the lips, tongue, or face; or hives);
· an irregular or fast heartbeat;
· chest pains or very high blood pressure (blurred vision, severe headache, flushing);
· unusual behavior or confusion; or
· liver damage (yellowing of the skin or eyes, nausea, abdominal pain or discomfort, unusual bleeding or bruising, severe fatigue).
• Other, less serious side effects may be more likely to occur. Continue to take methylphenidate and talk to your doctor if you experience
· insomnia (difficulty sleeping);
· nervousness;
· drowsiness;
· dizziness;
· headache;
· blurred vision;
· tics (repetitive movements);
· abdominal pain, nausea, or vomiting;
· decreased appetite or weight loss; or
· slower weight gain and/or growth.
• Methylphenidate may cause drug dependence.http://www.medicationadvisor.com/side_effects/Ritalin.htm
Oh wait, never mind, this is also part of the advice for Ritalin…
Remember, keep this and all other medicines out of the reach of children
Yes, keep this drug AWAY from our children! The best medical warning I think I may have ever seen.
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people had these problems for thousands of years. the thing was, no one cared and the person dealt with it. no excuses. and people fared just fine. or they tried to overcome their difficulties with help from family and friends. but they were still expected to provide.
thats the way i see it now. no excuses. liberal society is making way to many excuses for everyone.
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NC - if you take these lists of side effects as reasons to not take Ritalin, then you pretty much should not take ANY medication. You will find much nastier lists than this on just about any other medication out there - including nearly all OTC meds.
And somehow by listing a possible SE profile of Ritalin, i am to be convinced that ADHD does not exist? -
No, I am saying that ADD/ADHD IF it does exist is:
1. over diagnosed
2. over prescribedAs for your comment on other drug side effects…
You are correct, that means that when taking ANY medication you have to determine if the potential negative impacts of taking the drug outweigh the issue you would be taking the drugs for. And YES, I think that is an important thing for everyone to do, instead of just blindly taking medications. I take about 4 asprin/tylenol a year. I took a round of antibiotics 3 years ago for a severe ear infection that threatened my hearing in my “good” ear. To actually ahve me taking a lot of prescribed meds, I have to go back to my time in the military, and being drugged senseless again on Codeine for several months.Most ADD/ADHD folks would do be “cured” with an improved diet and a healthier more active lifestyle (you know, go burn some of thsoe stored calories instead of sitting infront of the tube or with your X-box… works wonders for being able to sit still, fall asleep at night, etc.)
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