U-Boat Positioning on G2

habs4life9

Ok, here’s the scenario. On G1 I used my air force to take out all of UK’s Atlantic navy: Sub Z8 to Z1, splashed UK’s E.Can transport. Bomber Ger. and ftr Nor. to Z2 to take out UK BB (lost the ftr, bomber landed in Nor.). Ftr W.Eu. and ftr Ger. to Z13 to take out UK cruiser (both survived, W.Eu. ftr landed in Nor., Ger. ftr landed in W.Eu.). These are all the units involved in the Atlantic sea combat on G1. In non-combat I moved the Baltic fleet to Z3. UK responded by purchasing an AC and 2 destroyers and using the 2 UK ftrs to sink my destroyer in Z3, and landed the ftrs upon the placement of the AC and the destroyers in Z8, out of range of my Norway ftrs. USA loaded up navally on US1, buying a cruiser, a destroyer and a transport preparing for an invasion of Algeria on US2. Also retreated the Pacific warships into the Atlantic theatre. By the time G2 rolls around in this scenario, I have crucial decisions to make with my U-boats. Remember there are 2 in Z3 and one in Z1. One option is combat: I could send all 3 U-boats into Z8 with the ftr in W.Eu. (originally the Germany ftr) and the Bomber from Norway. I don’t like this idea as it requires sacrificing all or almost all of these units. Besides, I need the air power for trading territories since USSR re-took Karelia heavy on R2 and has a stack there, and a medium stack in Ukr. So this means my U-boats will have to move in non-combat. My question is: where? I am thinking surround the UK navy to force them to split up their sea forces to kill my subs, but there are plenty of options even here. I could move the Z1 sub to Z2, and one of the Z3 subs to Z6, the other to Z7. or perhaps I should move the Z1 sub to Z3, and the others to Z6 and 7? or maybe the Z1 sub to Z9, the Z3 subs to Z2 and Z6/7? I could also move the Z1 sub to Z11/12, perhaps giving the US navy some trouble, and the 2 Z3 subs obviously have various options. It seems like no matter where I position my U-boats on G2, I will lose at least 2 out of 3 to the UK and US navies before G3. Is this a fact one just has to accept as Germany? If so, is there a method to this? I feel like the U-boat positioning on G2 is very important to slowing down a KGF. Or am I blowing this too far out of proportion?

habs4life9

Can anyone help? I realize a mistake I probably made on G1 when I moved the entire Baltic fleet to Z3. What I should’ve done was move the U-boats to Z3, but keep the destroyer in the Baltic. This way, if UK wants to send its fighters to kill my destroyer, they’ll have to fly 2 to Z5, meaning that if UK wants to land them on the AC at the end of the turn, the AC will have to be placed in Z6 or Z7, two very precarious positions. UK obviously does not want to be forced to put the AC in one of these dangerous sea zones, so leaving the destroyer in the Baltic on G1 may well save that ship. But now the question is how I use my destoyer after G1, since it wont be in a position to attack on G2\. I realize UK could also kill the destroyer and the Baltic transport with the Bomber on UK1, but this may be a small victory for Germany since itd prevent a strat bomb and prevents the fighters from killing German units on UK1 (unless of course UK is willing to sacrifice AC positioning for a couple kills).

77stranger77

What I’ve been doing is sending the Baltic subs out to z7. If the z2 ships are sunk(I would use the sub there), then z7 threatens the most seazones. A good Allied player probably won’t leave themselves exposed to an attack on their navy on G2 so what will probably happen is your subs will retreat into the Baltic and will threaten an attack when the Allies move up to the North Atlantic. They are valuable for just the threat and might not even have to sink anything to be useful to Germany.

habs4life9

Thank you, i’ll certainly take that into account. The way the sea zones are drawn in the Atlantic makes me realize the utmost importance of naval positioning. I’m sure this has been studied to death though, I’d really like to see some articles discussing exactly this.

Col.Stauffenberg

I like to buy a carrier and move my subs out to sea zone seven. I also use the other Atlantic sub to take out the UK cruiser in the med as I hate losing planes and recently lost two and had to retreat. Last time I tried this, the UK player went for a round one drop off in karelia and didn’t buy navy because I was in striking range and he doesn’t like to wait to build up. I was able to trap him there and take him out. When he finally decided to save enough moeny for a navy (41) it was round six and I was making 50 ipcs as GER. I wound up buying 7 transports (already had 2) and took out England next round. It was my one of my favorite victories because Japan had just gotten pushed off the coast, with their Navy about to be destroyed.

habs4life9

Yes, the one flaw in the take out UK navy strat strategy is that if the dice don’t go well for you you’re screwed for the rest of the game. But it’s still great if it works out, and the odds are in your favor that it will. I’ve got another question about the G1 Z2 battle: so it’d be a sub, a bomber and a ftr against UK’s BB and the Russian sub. Let’s say the sub rolls its surprise strike, and hits. If the Russian sub is chosen as a casualty, does it still get to conduct its defending surprise strike? I have been playing under the assumption that it does, but I’m not entirely sure about it. The rulebook isn’t clear on it either. If that is the case, then isn’t it the wisest thing to do to let Russia’s sub die to the surprise strike, so that the air units will still need two hits on the BB to sink it? If you assigned to surprise strike hit to the BB, then only one air unit would have to hit to kill the BB, since their hits cannot be assigned to subs.

lozmoid

I’ve had exactly this same situation as well. Germany brings in 1 Sub, 1 Ftr and 1 Bmbr. Defending are the UK BB and Soviet Sub. The German Sub chooses not to submerge. The Sov Sub chooses not to submerge. The Ger Sub fires its surprise strike and hits. The Sov Sub will also fire its surprise strike - let’s say it misses. I believe it would be wiser for the defenders to take Germany’s hit on the Sov sub because the German Ftr and Bmbr cannot hit the Sub (no defending Destroyer present). With the opening fire stage over, it’s now the Luftwaffe vs the Royal Navy.

But to answer your question, I think both Submarines are allowed to surprise strike before hits are assigned. Krieghund, is this correct? I know that a defending Destroyer would prevent defending surface warships from being sunk before they could return fire, but what about defending Submarines? Can they still fire back or are they wiped out before they get the chance?

Many thanks.

habs4life9

I double-checked the rulebook and it turns out it is better explained than I thought. Decisions on whether or not a sub will surprise strike or submerge are made before any dice are rolled for the surprise strike round. The attacking player decides first. So the German player will obviously want to conduct the strike, but will not roll any dice until the Russian player decides what he’ll do with his own sub. If Russia chooses to submerge, the sub will be put back in Z2 and out of the battle. The German player will then roll his surprise strike, which means that if it hits the BB will have to take the hit. So the smart thing is for Russia to opt for the surprise strike when he has to make his decision. And since the decision not to submerge but to fire has already been made, I think Russia’s sub still gets a die to roll even if the U-boat hits and the sub is assigned as the casualty. But I’m not entirely sure about it…

MrMalachiCrunch

I believe habs4life9 is correct in that the defending sub would also be able to return fire even if the German sub scored a hit. Paragraph 3 on page 17…“Once all attacking and defending submarines that conducted a surprise strike attack have fired, the casualties they have generated are removed from the game and this step is over.” So there is always that 1/6 chance Germany loses its fodder on the first round due to the russian sub. Why is it that it seems that russian sub always hits when I am Germany? I scored a hit with my sub but his sub hit too, 1 hit with the bomber and fighter missed, battleship hit. My bomber hits and his battleship hits again…figures.

Hobbes

@habs4life9:

And since the decision not to submerge but to fire has already been made, I think Russia’s sub still gets a die to roll even if the U-boat hits and the sub is assigned as the casualty. But I’m not entirely sure about it…

The Russian sub still fires a shot if the hit from the German sub is assigned to it. Any ones participating on the Surprise Strike always fire.

But if there was a German destroyer present then the Russian sub would fire on General Combat. If the German sub fired and hit and the casualty was assigned to the Russian sub then it would be removed immediately and not fire during general combat.

MrMalachiCrunch

I like to put my subs in Sz7. Putting your destoyer in Sz3 playes into the hands of the British I feel. Leaving your DD in Sz5 means the British cannot attack it with fighters then land them in Sz2. But it does mean they can attack it with fighters then land them in Wru for an attack on the germany navy in Sz15 on Britain 2. Britain purchases a bomber on B1, gets airforce in position to hit Sz15, 2 bombers and 2 fighters for sure.

Putting the DD in Sz 7 means fighters can attack it then land in Sz2 but not attack it then be in position to attack the german BB in the Med. It also makes it harder for an attack on Weu if any british transports live.

If you could have attacked his navy with 3 subs, 1 bomber and 2 fighters you would have had the advantage, over a 75% chance of winning, with 3 fighters it would have been a huge missed opportunity. Landing a fighter in Norway that could have landed in Weu and attack Sz8 might not have been the better move, UNLESS you built a bomber on G1. Then, you have 2 bombers, 1 fighter in Norway that can all hit Sz8. 2 bombers, 1 fighter and 3 subs wins over 80% against 2 DD, 1 CV and 2 Ftrs, moreover, leaving the DD in Sz5 means England can’t really attack it and land fighters in Sz2.

If Germany builds a bomber on G1, positions its subs in Sz7, fighters on Weu and maybe 1 in Norway, then England does NOT build navy on B1. They build 1 bomber only and wait for the new american builds to then mobve to Sz8.

Wilson2

I think that if you don’t send the sub to Z2, it should attack the US fleet. That gives you 50/50 of killing 26 IPCs worth of ships as opposed to the 100% of killing 1 transport.
In your case now, I would attack. I am just that way :-P

Hobbes

@MrMalachiCrunch:

If Germany builds a bomber on G1, positions its subs in Sz7, fighters on Weu and maybe 1 in Norway, then England does NOT build navy on B1. They build 1 bomber only and wait for the new american builds to then mobve to Sz8.

The trick is that the UK has 2 locations to safely build its navy, SZ2 and SZ8 and it might be impossible for G to cover both. If G lands its fighters on W. Eur then SZ2 should be clear, the same for Norway and SZ8.
If G has 2 ftrs, 2 subs and 2 bmrs to attack SZ8 and the Allies have 2 DDs, 1 sub, 1 AC, 1 CA and 2 fighters then the odds are for the Allies: 56% defender + 7% draw (since the transports will still be alive). G really needs a 3rd fighter/sub or to sink the Russian sub for the odds to be favorable to sink that fleet.
And to sink a UK fleet on SZ2 G will need 2 ftrs, 2 subs and 2 bmbrs. Just 1 ftr will not be enough (30% win, 10% draw, 60% loss) and even if the R sub is sunk the odds don’t get that better (50% win, 10% draw, 40% loss).
So, in order to prevent/sink any allied fleets on both SZ2/8 G needs 9 units: 2 bombers, 4/5 ftrs and 2/3 subs. 1 of its 6 starting fighters is killed on R1 and another is used on Egypt and lands on Libya, so that leaves only 4 ftrs and 3 subs, of which 1 or more is usually killed on the SZ13/SZ2 attacks on G1, preventing G from covering both SZ2/8.

Of course, G can buy 2 bombers on G1 but that would still require 1 ftr on Norway and 2 on W. Eur. for good odds of sinking fleets on both locations (or the 3rd sub). Or G could get just 1 bomber and an AC for the Baltic and land 2 ftrs there. With a 3rd ftr on W. Eur. it would also be able to hit either SZ. But such a buy can make things very hard against Russia.

Hobbes

I decided to redo the calcs regarding the SZ2/8 battles on G2, trying out different outcomes for losses on G1, and assuming that Germany will buy 1 bomber on G1.

1. SZ2

Russian sub survives G1

Germany: 1 ftr, 2 bmrs, 2 subs
Allies: 2 ftrs, 2 DDs, 1 AC, 1 sub
33.1% win, 66.9% loss

Germany: 2 ftrs, 2 bmrs, 2 subs
Allies: 2 ftrs, 2 DDs, 1 AC, 1 sub
68.5% win, 31.5% loss

Germany: 1 ftr, 2 bmrs, 3 subs
Allies: 2 ftrs, 2 DDs, 1 AC, 1 sub
63.2% win, 36.8% loss

Russian sub destroyed G1

Germany: 2 bmrs, 2 subs
Allies: 2 ftrs, 2 DDs, 1 AC
27.3% win, 71.8% loss

Germany: 1 ftr, 2 bmrs, 2 subs
Allies: 2 ftrs, 2 DDs, 1 AC
58% win, 42% loss

Germany: 1 ftr, 2 bmrs, 3 subs
Allies: 2 ftrs, 2 DDs, 1 AC
81.6% win, 18.4% loss

2. SZ8

Russian sub survives G1

Germany: 2 ftrs, 2 bmrs, 2 subs
Allies: 2 ftrs, 2 DDs, 1 AC, 1 CA, 1 sub
36% win, 64% loss

Germany: 2 ftrs, 2 bmrs, 3 subs
Allies: 2 ftrs, 2 DDs, 1 AC, 1 CA, 1 sub
60.3% win, 39.7% loss

Germany: 3 ftrs, 2 bmrs, 2 subs
Allies: 2 ftrs, 2 DDs, 1 AC, 1 CA, 1 sub
69.2% win, 30.8% loss

Russian sub destroyed G1

Germany: 1 ftr, 2 bmrs, 2 subs
Allies: 2 ftrs, 2 DDs, 1 AC, 1 CA
26.1% win, 73.9% loss

Germany: 2 ftrs, 2 bmrs, 2 subs
Allies: 2 ftrs, 2 DDs, 1 AC, 1 CA
60.5% win, 39.5% loss

Germany: 2 ftrs, 2 bmrs, 3 subs
Allies: 2 ftrs, 2 DDs, 1 AC, 1 CA
80.7% win, 19.3% loss

U-Boat Positioning on G2

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