France

Concerning Vichy.

France surrendered and made peace with Germany (sort of), so all French Colonies should be “Neutral” after the Germans conquer Paris+ the Coast (Dunkirk)

technically the Free French Forces weree NOT representing France as France had a working government (De Gaulle could be seen as a mercenary /rebel - he was only a patriot because the Allies won - history is written by the winner - but that does not belong here ;)).

most Vichy territories were soon attacked and most switched sides when attacked

Indochine fell to the japanese in 1940 (before the attack on PH), but the French even fought (and lost) a war against Siam in 1940…

Syria was attacked by the Brits - put up a little fight and surrendered/threw in their lot with the Allies, but before Germany flew some planes to Iraq )stopover in Syria) to support Iraq against the Brits…

The African Colonies soon joined the Free french Forces (one Genral was marching fom West Africa through Tcahd to Egypt/Lybia IIRC)

no infos on the Indian Ocean posessions…

Morocco and Algeria were defended by vichy troops when the allies landed there - put up a little fight and surrendered, but this forced GErmany/Italy to ship troops to Tunesia  -i believe at the same time Germny decided to get rid of Vichy and occupied it.

So the simplest rule for Vichy would be - put some troops in the territories - no build up - prevented by the treaty with Germany ;) - if one side decides to attack a Vichy territory the troops defend for ONE  combat round and then the attacker gets the territory.

If France has a fleet at the time of the surrender Brit ships should be forced to attack them - with ALL adjacent units, but after one combat round the survivors join the Free french…

just my 2 cents

BTW - please stop the Froggy bashing :D

I feel the solution is very simple, Larry said that he was going to have pro-axis neutras in the game, so the rule should be that when paris is captured all the french forces should become a pro-axis neutral.

I thought that way too. My question (to myself) was what happens to the french units that are in Africa and other areas (I believe Larry said there would be French in Africa). Would they just be removed from the board.
Maybe that is the incentive for Germany to attack France full force rd#1. If Paris falls rd#1 remove all French ground units in Africa and those territories become pro axis neuts. If Paris doesn’t fall rd#1 the blue stays and fight on as Free French.

@Emperor_Taiki:

I feel the solution is very simple, Larry said that he was going to have pro-axis neutras in the game, so the rule should be that when paris is captured all the french forces should become a pro-axis neutral.

Perhaps “D6 French territories and the French units within become axis controled, replace them with german units” Territories are Chosen by the european axis players, if they can not agree the europea allies choose

I’m pretty sure what happens is that the French units/territories are all controlled by UK, even if France does fall. Though not historically accurate it makes things a lot simpler.

Try RISK, if you want simple games.  Handing Vichy France over to the Allies doesn’t make sense.

@Brain:

Try RISK, if you want simple games.  Handing Vichy France over to the Allies doesn’t make sense.

well said

@Brain:

Try RISK, if you want simple games.  Handing Vichy France over to the Allies doesn’t make sense.

I was simply stating their mindset. I’m pretty certain what I said is already confirmed. Forgive me if I’m mistaken though.

@bennyboyg:

@Brain:

Try RISK, if you want simple games.  Handing Vichy France over to the Allies doesn’t make sense.

I was simply stating their mindset. I’m pretty certain what I said is already confirmed. Forgive me if I’m mistaken though.

No apology needed. I am just a little bothered by the rumors of how this Vichy France thing is going to be handled.

US player should control France and China….considering they wont be doing much else Turn 1-2.

US player should control France until they are defeated and then Germany should control France.

I’m pretty sure the UK ends up controlling France all game

France will be somebody’s puppet.

Yea, the US player will need something to do early in the game. Allowing him to control France would fill that void. I just hope he doesn’t get to used to getting his A$$ kicked.

@WILD:

Yea, the US player will need something to do early in the game. Allowing him to control France would fill that void. I just hope he doesn’t get to used to getting his A$$ kicked.

I am sure it will be over quickly.

@johnnymarr:

If Larry doesn’t take into consideration Vichy France, then that will be a big blunder.

Per LH
FYI - After wrestling with this Vichy siht, I decided to skip the whole thing. France will be considered an ally power and that’s it. The confusion generated by the Vichy loyalty thing is just not worth the extra game steps. Also… perhaps I did not mention this but if and when France is liberated it reappears as a self-standing power with its own economy. The rule may end up providing France with an automatic influx of new units appearing on the board. - I’m still toying with this idea. It’s got to be simple and instinctive.

Aw, France should switch sides during the game, Marshal Petain in VF was a total German collaborator, probably worse than Quisling in Norway.  Vichy France paid millions of francs to “sustain occupying forces” for Germany (spoils), was totally controlled by the SS and was compliant in persecutions, plus there were some French who joined anti-communism divisions and definitely worked with the German authorities.

At this time in history, after the Great Depression of the 30’s, democracies were seen as inherently “weak” and prone to lacking the resolve to combat the helplessness caused by the failure of the world economic system.  Fascism was seen as a viable alternative to democratic governments ruled by the whims of public opinion and the depressed economy.  The rise of Nazi Germany was mostly done the same way that other governments got out of the depression, lots and lots of govt. spending, but you couldn’t tell that the rebuilding of Germany from WWI wasn’t ALL due to the switch to fascism.

At the beginning of WWII, Germany had just burst out of its borders and was seen as unstoppable in taking over all of Europe and possibly the world.  France at this junction was trying to make the most out of a bad situation and there were definitely willing collaborators trying to get as much out of the new world order as they could.  There was definitely some resistance, too, but for the most part the French realized they had been beaten and knew they had to go along with the Jerries for quite some time before help would come.

Let whichever side controls Paris have the French on their team!  The Free french could be under control of the British player, and if the Allies liberate Paris, have the dice rolled again to see if the territories revert back to Allied control!  Would be funny as hell to see France switch sides 3-4 times per game!

@SgtBlitz:

@johnnymarr:

If Larry doesn’t take into consideration Vichy France, then that will be a big blunder.

Per LH
FYI - After wrestling with this Vichy siht, I decided to skip the whole thing. France will be considered an ally power and that’s it. The confusion generated by the Vichy loyalty thing is just not worth the extra game steps. Also… perhaps I did not mention this but if and when France is liberated it reappears as a self-standing power with its own economy. The rule may end up providing France with an automatic influx of new units appearing on the board. - I’m still toying with this idea. It’s got to be simple and instinctive.

Aw, France should switch sides during the game, Marshal Petain in VF was a total German collaborator, probably worse than Quisling in Norway.  Vichy France paid millions of francs to “sustain occupying forces” for Germany (spoils), was totally controlled by the SS and was compliant in persecutions, plus there were some French who joined anti-communism divisions and definitely worked with the German authorities.

At this time in history, after the Great Depression of the 30’s, democracies were seen as inherently “weak” and prone to lacking the resolve to combat the helplessness caused by the failure of the world economic system.  Fascism was seen as a viable alternative to democratic governments ruled by the whims of public opinion and the depressed economy.  The rise of Nazi Germany was mostly done the same way that other governments got out of the depression, lots and lots of govt. spending, but you couldn’t tell that the rebuilding of Germany from WWI wasn’t ALL due to the switch to fascism.

At the beginning of WWII, Germany had just burst out of its borders and was seen as unstoppable in taking over all of Europe and possibly the world.  France at this junction was trying to make the most out of a bad situation and there were definitely willing collaborators trying to get as much out of the new world order as they could.  There was definitely some resistance, too, but for the most part the French realized they had been beaten and knew they had to go along with the Jerries for quite some time before help would come.

Let whichever side controls Paris have the French on their team!  The Free french could be under control of the British player, and if the Allies liberate Paris, have the dice rolled again to see if the territories revert back to Allied control!  Would be funny as hell to see France switch sides 3-4 times per game!

All this may be, but like he said it’s all for game balance.

I would tend to treat Vichy colonies as neutral; they will fight whoever attacks them.  You might have a similar system in place for British colonies in the event of the UK mainland falling, with perhaps Canada and A/NZ exceptions.

Only when all the French mainland areas are liberated do the Allies gain control of VF forces.  Or, if Germany decides to move in and garrison VF itself.

But how is VF actually set up in the first place; do the Germans automatically divide the country in two?  If so is southern i.e.Vichy France treated as per a colony, with it’s VF garrison and no Germans occupying or passing through?  This really needs surrender rules, whereby France is considered defeated even when holding mainland territories (e.g. if Paris falls?)

It really does seem unfair to treat France as if it’s fall is inevitable, and that of the other Allies impossible.  Same rules should apply to any defeated country, whatever we consider “defeat” to consist of.

gotta cook up a way to produce without your capital for countries like UK and Russia if moscow or london  falls

Larry is right, its complicated….and its going to spawn 6 different versions of house rules to do essentaly the same thing

@oztea:

gotta cook up a way to produce without your capital for countries like UK and Russia if moscow or london  falls

Larry is right, its complicated….and its going to spawn 6 different versions of house rules to do essentaly the same thing

Larrys rules wiil not do the same thing.

The vichy terrtroies had to be fought over and the french fleet will be retained by the allies instead of what accually happend which was the UK attacked the french fleet.

Its complietly ilogical and unhisotrical, you can say it works best for gameplay(which it dosnt, but you would have a better arguement) but their is no reason to say it has something to do with history.