Japan first strategies

HI,
I’m surfing the web for the first time adn find axisandallies.org!

Looking @ the subjects, i found this one. looks like yuo takled about it for 2 weeks adn then stopped. did the one below work for JApan first? if not, is htere one that did?

@dezrtfish:

I think you have beter cahances if you leave Africa for the americans and have the british concetrate on India. On the first turn use the Russian fighters to help defend the future IC. They also send two Inf to Sinkiang to help Defend the US IC there. Sinkiang and India suport each other and as soon as they can manage they send troops to Russia. The US can land troops in Africa by the boat load if they use Eastern Canada. These troops can A)march through the middle east to the Caucasus or B)From Algeria land in any German territory.

THANKS

Well… since this topic has been revived, here are my thoughts on the Grand Strategy of this idea.

First of all let me state that my official position is that this thread is a Big Fat Waste of Time! :)

I don’t think you can do it against a good Axis player. But as a logical exercise it would be fun to work on the problem. This will be a rambling, ‘think out loud’ process covering the basics from the Allies perspective, and will partially be no-brainers for the experienced players. I won’t get into any specific tactics or whether or not it can even be done (I doubt it can), just try to summarize what has to happen so that tactics can be developed.

With a Germany First strategy the question has always been, “Can Japan take Russia before the Allies take Germany?”

Under a Japan First strategy this question changes to “Can the USA take Japan before Germany takes Russia?” This basically implies that the Allies will have to be defensive in Western Europe, holding out against Germany as long as possible, while at the same time push on Japan as quickly as possible.

Can the USA even take Japan by itself? Probably not. In most games Japan will have an income equal to or higher than the USA by turn 3 and there is little the USA can do about it.

So the USA needs help. Before we can answer “Who?”, we need to decide “Where and how?” and factor in dealing with Germany.

The USA needs an ally to help reduce Japan’s income, which means either on the mainland or the islands, or both. I think the mainland is a much easier target than the islands for many reasons that I won’t get into, so let’s go with that.

Goal#1: We need Russia and/or the UK to help the USA kick Japan off the mainland.

Sounds like a simple, common sense statement so far… let’s look at Germany.

Can Russia stop Germany by itself? No, of course not. Why? Not enough income. Can they increase their income in our new scenario? Technically yes, by taking the 3 countries from the Japanese mainland for +9 income. Is that feasible? Who knows - probably not. Is that enough? Yes, if Germany doesn’t have Africa, no if they do have Africa. Can Russia stop Germany from taking Africa? No way. So in order to hold off Germany by itself, Russia has to divert enough troops away from the Eastern Front with Germany to take all 3 Japanese mainland countries and needs the UK to hold Africa - all of this against a Germany that has no pressure on the Eastern Front and no worries from the USA. I think I am definitely barking up the wrong tree here, so let’s stick with the idea that Russia has to get direct help from the UK against Germany. Where? That’s an easy one since there is only one answer - Karelia.

Goal#2: We need the UK’s direct support in holding Karelia.

Another easy, common sense goal. Not much progress in and of itself, but if we combine the two goals we suddenly hit on the real meat of the problem and the first big question:

Big Question: How can the UK and Russia hold Karelia against Germany, while at the same time one or both of them help the USA kick Japan off the mainland?

Can the UK and USSR even hold of Germany in Karelia without any help from the USA? Africa is the the key - yes if the UK holds Africa, no if Germany takes Africa. So now we have to revise our Big Question:

Revised Big Question: How can the UK and Russia hold Karelia against Germany, prevent Germany from taking Africa, and at the same time one or both of them help the USA kick Japan off the mainland?

Can Russia even help out in Africa? A little, by pushing troops through Persia, but not really - looks like the bulk of the job is up to the UK. Can the UK help defend Karelia and send troops to Africa? Probably. Can they help defend Karelia, send troops to Africa, and help the US kick Japan off the mainland? Probably not. So it also looks like the bulk of that job falls to Russia, so we at least need Russia’s help in kicking Japan off the mainland. Now we have a basic set of goals for everyone.

I think I’ll wrap up with some major and minor goals for each of the three Allied countries:

Russia Major Goals - Defend Karelia, help the USA kick Japan off the mainland.
Russia Minor Goal - Help the UK defend Africa.

UK Major Goals - Defend Karelia, keep Germany out of Africa.
UK Minor Goal - Help the USA kick Japan off the mainland.

USA Major Goals - Kick Japan off the mainland, take Japan.
USA Minor Goals - Take some islands from Japan, help out in Africa if needed.

Any specific tactics we come up with are going to need to fit into these goals.
This certainly isn’t the only possible approach, but I think its a good summary if the USA is going 90% + after Japan.

The other strategy (that some of you guys were kind of developing above) is what I would call a Half-A$$ed Japan Crush, where all three Allies go partially after Japan. The goal here would be for them to do just enough to keep Germany in stalemate, sending everything else that was not used for that purpose against Japan. But when you look at that idea compare to the goals above, all we are really talking about is shifting some Majors and Minors around, so they still present a good working frame.

Well if nothing else, you get a glimpse at how the hamsters run on the little wheel in my brain! :o

Very well written. What I propose is simply keeping Germany in check (your last alternative) and use all remaining forces to stop Japan and ride the IPC count to victory. However, the main deal here is Africa. Like you said, if Africa falls - so does the game. If you can bottle the Germans in Europe, keeping their income at 28-25 (along with some good SBR) - then you easily keep Germany in check (using the VATB Theory of Infantry on Defense). However, since UK has to attack Japan UK1, it cannot possibly counterattack Germany should they take Egypt. So therein lies the big question.

Now here is a quick thought on why Kill Japan First is officially a Big Fat Waste of Time in a balanced game against a good Axis player:

Look at how hard it is for the Allies, 3 on 1, to crush Germany when Germany is being fully defensive and buying 95% infantry.
Now take away half of the pressure Germany gets from Russia, half of the pressure Germany gets from the UK, and make Germany an island. :o

Not 100% accurate, but you get the picture… :lol:

For Japan First:

• Russia moves all armor to Nov. and stacks infantry on Karelia and Yakut.

• Having the Armor in Nov allows counter strikes in all directions on R2.

• Russia lands 1 ftr in india, and 1 ftr in Sinkaing.

• UK build a IC in India and leaves Eqypt/syria using the tranport to bring infantry to India.

• Assuming Japan fails to take Sinkaing, the US will build an IC there turn 1.

The US will buy 2 tanks per turn for the Japan effort, and put all other effort into liberating Africa.

The U.K puts all effort into Asia, buying 3 tanks and plane every round. Send the planes to India via Karelia to help the Russian on defense.

Russian holds out against Germany and Launches an attack in coordination with the other Allies to 1 - 2 - 3 punch Japan off the mainland before Japan can respond. Usually turn 3 or 4. Produce allied aircraft to sink any Japanese boats, and Japan is effectively defeated/contained. Now turn all available resources to killing Germany and taking berlin.

The problem is that you need supporting inf to back up those ARMs

You know what though? Zero has inadvertantly hit on the most (only?) feasible KJF strategy - going after Japan by pushing all your troops through Russia:

The Long, Slow Death of Japan
This will make for a very long game, but at least you could say you did it. Once. You stick with the basic strategy used in a Crush Germany game for the first several turns, namely setting up UK and US fleets in the North Sea to pump infantry into Karelia through Norway. But you never go into Eastern Europe. Instead you push as many troops as possible through Russia to the Russian/Japanese front, always leaving behind just enough troops in Karelia to keep Germany in check. All excess troops (say for example, all USA troops) get sent east to slowly push Japan back into the Pacific. It certainly wouldn’t be an easy battle, but Russia will never be in real danger and you would win eventually. While technically this is a very feasible strategy, in reality it’s worthless because at that point it’s still much easier to crush Germany and you would be going after Japan instead just for the novelty of it - all you are doing is pointlessly dragging the game out and probably pissing off your opponent, although he may be content to keep playing since Germany will still be going strong.

So really it’s just a technicality and doesn’t count as a true KJF strategy.

Edit: Actually, what would probably wind up happening is that there will be so many troops on the EE/Karelia border that one of you will wind up making a mistake in numbers (or the numbers will get so big that you will both be in new “Do I have enough to win this battle?” territory) and a giant battle will ensue before Japan falls.

Still a newbie, and playing RR, 2 Hit BB without a Bid… I think that Japan first can work… This might not be possible with a bid into Libya… I think that I’ve finally got a handle on the shuck-shuck, and I’m looking for something different…

USSR1: Stack LEN & YAK. 2 INF MOS to Novo. Boats to NOR. Build 2 INF MOS, 6 INF KAR.

UK1: If Germany hit AES, take them out (IND INF, FTR, INF SYR, BMB UK). Otherwise, pull out of Africa (AES, SYR INF to IND via. TRN, AES ARM to PER). 2 FTR to KAR regardless.
If the Gib BB is alive, buy the CV, 1 TRN, 1 INF, move the BB to NOR. Otherwise save $30.

US1: Buy 4 Subs. Counter attack HAW with BB, TRN, 2 FTR, 1 BMB and sub from HAW if it had the chance to retreat. If we’re not going to win Pearl III (we shouldn’t), try to retreat 1 FTR to WUS.

Place subs in WUS.

USSR2: Build up the stacks. 2 INF NOVO to SIN. Take FIN with Air, minimal #s of INF.

UK2: If we didn’t buy the CV rnd 1, do it now, along with 3 trn and some INF. Otherwise, buy 2 TRN, and fill them. Save extra $$$ (aiming for a FTR). Land whatever we can in Finland.

US2: Buy a carrier and a fighter, and an TRN. If what remains of the Jap fleet is exposed to the subs, hit it. Otherwise, just let them sit.

USSR3+:
Keep the stacks. Try to hold Kar, Yak, and Sink (with help from Brits in Ind).

UK3+:
Alternate landing INF in Africa and Fin. Whenever (if ever) $$$ allows, buy an extra fighter for LEN.

US3:
Take Wake. Build a couple TRNs, take INF from EUS to fill them. Buy a bomber.

US4+:
Set up airbase on Wake. Send rogue TRNs to start picking off Japan’s islands. Land in SFE or FICB as Jap placement allows. Use subs to continually harass japan’s shipping. Japan will be forced to either commit $$$ or their fighters to defense of their TRNs. SBR Japan with bombers not needed to disrupt their shipping. Maybe tech from time to time, as everything except Jet Power/Rockets would help out here (and picking up rockets just means building 1 TRN EUS to take an AA to FIN for $3.5 off Germany every turn)…

Russia ought to be able to start pushing back at Japan at this point, as the UK retakes Africa. Germany will have a TON of INF in Europe, but they should still be confined to the continent. As Japan loses her islands, ground to the Russians, and $$$ to US bombing, her economy crumbles, and she is forced to concentrate on keeping Japan out of Allied hands.

The US should be able to afford to (with a Factory on FICB, India, or the Philipines) outproduce Japan while at the same time sending ARM west through Asia to Russia. US should have enough force built up to take Japan by turn 10 or so…

This should make for a LONG game, but I think that it would be interesting to play it out… My rotation for the US/Russia isn’t for another week with my local group, but if I can talk Britain into it, I’m going to give this a shot… I guess that the worst that can happen is I lose badly, but we’re not playing for money (that would be interesting at the level of play I’ve seen demonstrated here), and bragging rights generally change hands week-to-week anyway…

With a German bid of INF into Libya, they’d be able to quickly push units through to Syria/Persia, and meet Japan in India… I think that they would come together about 1 turn too soon to for this strategy to be effective…

What’s everybody think?

It’s been years sicne I tried a Japan-first strategy against a good player, but against the computer setting up a blockade in the Sea of Japan while picking off two islands or so per turn does wonders. All that remains is for the UK and Russia to keep Japan limited on the mainland.

If anyone has a moment to do so, please point out to me where a good player would handle Japan better than the AI in this situation.

I never use Japan forces to attack Hawaii anymore…it leaves Japan just an awesome navy right at the beginning of the game.

Japan has to expand into asian as soon as possible. Matters what rules you are playing with, but me and my friends prefer playing without building IC, russia restricted, ger/jap techs. This helps out Japan a lot. Even though you need like 8 transports to effectivly go into Asia, hopfully germany has taken africa and russia cannot build tanks to take back asia.

Once Japan has taken just a couple countries in asia they don’t even need to worry about america hitting them, as they will make more then the US and already have a huge standing navy in the waters of japan. Build 3-6 subs, position them in spots so if the american fleet moves anywhere they can be hit by the subs, and japan can split its navy in the pacific and keep america bottled up on its shores.

This WHOLE time you need to be buying men and moving them towards russia. The tanks can follow later, as well as planes, but you need the men to take the hits from russia’s defense. Once japan starts fronting on russia, germany can more then likely take karilia and have enough defense left over to combat US/UK threats. This leaves japan with russia after a couple of thrusts with germany, and japan can take russia easy enough.

Also, when japan starts making 40+ cash they can send tanks into africa trying to take it back, with transports running the coast and taking over little countries and staying away from ally fire.

The best game I had with Japan I was making 61 cash a turn and had no more Japanese markers to place on the board :lol:
I play best with Japan, and I personally love it when America tries to take me over. Japan can easily hold them back. The two battleships and carrier w/two planes is worth soooooooo much money, you just need to build transports and subs. Even if somehow america can take out the japanese fleet (and if it does you need to start thinking a little more) they should still have too weak a force to invade japan.

As long as japan controls asia. If they do, the axis have a very good chance of winning the game.