There is also an AC, IC, 3 Inf purchase to help establish a naval defense against an allied invasion of Western Europe. I’ve done it once with great success, I have read that Jennifer has used this as well. I haven’t used it again so I am not sure whether or not it is a one trick pony. It is fun to watch the allies scratch their heads in wonder.
Yeah, that Western Europe IC is extremely useful against the Allied Atlantic navy. But I think it’s pretty damn risky for G1, because you’re sinking 31 IPCs on an anti-Atlantic purchase, leaving Germany horribly weak against the Russians, and AFTER the allies see the AC and IC, they can just go KJF anyways, starting with a UK IC in India on UK1 and a US IC in Ssinkiang on US2, followed by 4 inf to Ssinkiang on USSR2. A four fighter build ALSO leaves the Germans horribly weak against the Russians for infantry count, but at least the fighters can be used against ground targets. It’s difficult to use that Western Europe IC for anything else but defense, and I think that a quick offense, or at least a balance of offense and defense, is best for Germany.
The thing is, if you DO want an IC in Western Europe, a G1 buy is potentially far stronger (when combined with a German Med fleet moving west). The Baltic fleet and the Mediterranean fleet can unite, and additional naval units built, making Germany’s Atlantic fleet nearly invincible. But I think that it is not a good idea to try a G1 AC/IC, because of the fact that the Allies can respond so strongly and quickly to a G1 AC/IC build.
Lots o Options. :-)
I didn’t see this:
10 inf, 2 arm.
Also
7 inf, 1 rt, 3 arm. (or 8 inf, 3 arm save 1)
Basically, mixes of what you already had listed, but IMO much stronger long term then a 5-5 buy, because you are able to get a few more inf and with existing tanks, you should only need another 1 or 2 to make sure Russia can’t move heavy to Ukr on R2. Likewise, some extra Russian casualties in Rd 1 or 2 and you may be able to move to Ukr (to hold) on G2, with the extra “3’s” but you’ll still have enough inf to deter an early WE or EE Allied landing.
Quite right on both counts. I also agree that those are both stronger than a 5-5 buy.
However, I disagree with categorically using an early infantry buy to deter WE landings. I often prefer to march all my G1 produced infantry east immediately, and move some tanks into W. Europe, so I have something like 2-3 inf, 2+ tanks, and 4 fighters. Around G3, I start moving the tanks east, and start moving infantry west.
I’m saving my comprehensive strategy writeup for after Larry releases the Deluxe version of Axis and Allies (with a finalized ruleset w00t) http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/bb/viewforum.php?f=27
@ncscswitch:
In your notes on the 12 INF, 1 ART G1 purchase…
Germany is not likely to be able to do a G4 or G5 TRN purchase in the Med. If the 12/1 build is followed up correctly by Germany and not sqaundered, then the Med is going to be a dead zone to Germany with any built TRNs immediately sunk, and Africa lost early. Indeed with this build Germany may be better off evacuating Africa once the initial Suez closing move is completed in Egypt… but that depends on the UK and/or USA T2 moves…
Why shouldn’t Germany be able to do a G4-G5 TRN purchase?
Why will the Med be a dead zone to Germany?
Why hsould any built TRNs immediately be sunk?
Why should Africa be lost early?
What are the Allied moves that result in those results?
There is also an AC, IC, 3 Inf purchase to help establish a naval defense against an allied invasion of Western Europe. I’ve done it once with great success, I have read that Jennifer has used this as well. I haven’t used it again so I am not sure whether or not it is a one trick pony. It is fun to watch the allies scratch their heads in wonder.
Yea, and if I remember right (it was long ago) I won 2 out of 3 games with this open. But it allowed Russia to collect almost 40 IPC for a couple of rounds before I pushed them back. (It ended up Kill England First cause I had the transports and fighters to do it.)
I’ve always enjoyed alot of tanks, with the occasional bomber to raid russias IC’s
as iv’e played (with fairly unproductive opponents in my opinion) germany will hold off russia for a few turns. and invade UK if opportunity presents itself( once had him attack with all of his planes, which he had been constantly purchasing, and a mass majority of them died in AA then the rest from r1 of combat :-D) meanwhile J1 attack hawaii and exapand in mainland, J2 attack and conquer East US and continue expansion in mainland. J3 invade russia with tanks and planes(get his 4 xtra units out of the way first) then blitz through russia slowly crippling. also slowly crippling US (not able to invade germany due to threat by me :-) ) so on and so forth.
There is also an AC, IC, 3 Inf purchase to help establish a naval defense against an allied invasion of Western Europe. I’ve done it once with great success, I have read that Jennifer has used this as well. I haven’t used it again so I am not sure whether or not it is a one trick pony. It is fun to watch the allies scratch their heads in wonder.
Yea, and if I remember right (it was long ago) I won 2 out of 3 games with this open. But it allowed Russia to collect almost 40 IPC for a couple of rounds before I pushed them back. (It ended up Kill England First cause I had the transports and fighters to do it.)
I can see that AC/IC could work for Germany, but I think only if the Allies let it.
Do you think that AC/IC for Germany is a viable first turn purchase?
–
@Mork:
I’ve always enjoyed alot of tanks, with the occasional bomber to raid russias IC’s
as iv’e played (with fairly unproductive opponents in my opinion) germany will hold off russia for a few turns. and invade UK if opportunity presents itself( once had him attack with all of his planes, which he had been constantly purchasing, and a mass majority of them died in AA then the rest from r1 of combat :-D) meanwhile J1 attack hawaii and exapand in mainland, J2 attack and conquer East US and continue expansion in mainland. J3 invade russia with tanks and planes(get his 4 xtra units out of the way first) then blitz through russia slowly crippling. also slowly crippling US (not able to invade germany due to threat by me :-) ) so on and so forth.
I note that you mentioned that you believed you had fairly unproductive opponents. Frankly, if the US player lost Eastern US on J2, they are not “unproductive”, unless by “unproductive”, you mean horribly bad. The only reason for losing even Western US on J2 would be the destruction of at least three of Japan’s battleships and carriers, plus fighters and transports, plus retake from Central US or Western Canada or Mexico on the following turn.
Paint:
You have to know your allied opponent. However, I can tell you with 100% certainty that without cheating, you cannot win with an IC/AC purchase broken into two rounds if both rounds occur before Round 5. :)
In other words, if you do it, it has to be turn 1 and it has to be in the same round. From there, you can build a transport or submarine a round and lock SZ 7 or SZ 6 from Allied incursion, force them to spend a lot on navy (I have found you need 65% the investment to defend a sea zone then take it.) which all slows down 72 IPCs worth of crud getting in your way of crushing Russia. (30 for England, 42 for America.)
I don’t think the AC/IC is that viable, in terms of something you’d want to use in a lot of games.
As Jen said, I suppose if you know your opponent, that is one thing.
I’d like to think it could work, but I really can’t see how a good Allied player doesn’t sink the fleet in Sz 7 (unless Ger drops down another 2 or 3 ships) in rd 2 OR how Russia doesn’t become a super power. I mean Russia earning 40, yikes. You should be able to take Balk with that.
Getting to UK, I think is a long shot, but should be the focus, since Russia will be an early monster.
If you only add ONE other sea unit in rd 2, you’ll lose the fleet on a combined UK-US attack. Meanwhile Russia will be stacked heavy in Ukr.
If you bring over the med BB, trn, with the sz 8 sub to Gib (on G1), you might be able to hold the fleet a lot longer but you’ll see a UK counter in Egy for sure and then a Possible UK landing in SE/Balk on UK 2-3, or UK reinforcing Ukr as Russia take Balk forcing Germany to defend both SE or Ger.
If you add 2 or more naval units on G2, again Russia should be able to force the issue at Balk quite quickly.
But if you want to go after UK, wouldn’t it be better to just buy 3-4 trns on G1 or 1 AC and 2 trns? Basically it is the same cost without locking into an IC in WE.
At least here you could get the trns to the Med where they could be of use as well.
with 4 bid, buy a Dst, trn, BB. BB, trn med, Dsts z5.
Attack SZ13 with BB, 2ub, figs, take egypt as usual (kill dst with 1 fig, 1 bmb) egypt with 2 inf, 2 arm, 1 fig.
This depends of course on russias opening, but can do for the most times.
THat’s exactly it, DM. You have to know your opponent. How he thinks, what you can leave as a picket and what he will attack with. Is he afraid of AA Guns, cocky? Careless? Conservative?
But with two full rounds of German investments into W. Europe/SZ 7 you can create a wall in Germany/S. Europe, stage enough infantry/Armor in W. Europe and get a massive fleet there by round 3 to take England.
But yes, you most likely give E. Europe, Norway, Ukraine, Belorussia, Balkans and W. Russia to Russia.
And the more I think about it, the more I think leaving Egypt to the Egyptians might not be a bad idea, unless you can take it with african Ground forces. (Yes, that means a bid in N. Africa.) Use the transport to take Gibraltar and stage your fleet there.
Buy turn 3 you should have 6 Transports, 3 Submarines, 1 AC, 1 BB, 1 DD, 5 or 6 Fighters, 1 Bomber and 12 ground units to hit England with.
I think it’s like this - if you lead with pawn to king four, and your opponent responds with king’s knight pawn to king’s knight four, it’s not really that you know your opponent. It’s that your opponent made a bad move.
Taking England on round 3 is not possible against a skilled Allied opponent.
Maybe, but how many resources have you forced the Allies to commit compared to how much of your own have you committed? And if they screw up, you’re ready to pounce.
Why shouldn’t Germany be able to do a G4-G5 TRN purchase?
Why will the Med be a dead zone to Germany?
Why hsould any built TRNs immediately be sunk?
Why should Africa be lost early?
What are the Allied moves that result in those results?
If you don;t know, I’ll show you in a game sometime… :evil:
HINT: USA and UK to Algeria on Turn 2…
build an extra BB and US/UK can forget landing in algeria
@Nix:
build an extra BB and US/UK can forget landing in algeria
With an extra German BB, I won;t have to… Russia will be in Balkans/Eastern in R3 after Germany spends the equivalent of an entire Russian build on a single naval unit.
And 1 BB against what the US/UK can bring to SZ12 on T2 is NOT that much of a deterent…
2 loaded AC’s
2 DSTs
1 BB
4 TRN
1 SUB
And that is a CONSERVATIVE estimate.
You can´t get the BB, it´s falls short of SZ12.
But sure spend IPC to buy 2 Ac´s that you will lose allong with the Figs if you move there, fine by me, and Russia will only be in Ukraine in R2, will trade Balkans 1 round and then be forced back again, and must guard Cauccasus from the 2 trn, 2 BB med fleet.
Not to mention japan is Unrestrained.
I’ve already shown how Russia in the Balkans is not necessarily a bad thing for Germany. Why you continue to use it as a basis for your arguement is incomprehensible.
Sure. Russia has 40 IPC. Whatever. Germany has Africa, England and a wall big enough to stop America in her tracks. Japan has everything up to Moscow, Australia, New Zealand, Madagascar and Hawaii.
Russia’s 40 IPC going to mean squat against the Axis making 100+?
Another matehmatical error there Jen.
If Russia has reached Balkans/Eastern…
Russia will be in the ballpark of 32-35, dependign on if they get one or both of Eastern/Balkans (assuming loss of SFE/Bury/Yakut in the east)
Germany will be up 5-7 in Africa as of R3 at most
Japan can’t take Australia and New Zealand by R3
But UK can grab Norway for the fun of it by then and still have a major fleet and forces in Algeria (using the above example).
So, after R3:
Russia is at $32 (going cosnervative and they only got one of Balkans/Eastern and Japan in Yakut/Sinkiang/India)
Germany at $34 (up $7 in Africa, down $13 in Europe)
UK at $23
Japan at $40
USA at $38
Now, getting beyond teh specifics of hte example I was posting…
If Russia is at $40, that means that Germany has LOST $16 IPC. Even if they take all of Africa, that is still net negative income for Germany. And that assumes Japan took nothing from USSR. But since SFE/Bury/Yakut are likely to fall at a minimum, then Russia at $40 means Germany has lost $19 in europe to Russia… Russia would be in SOUTHERN, and Germany would be at $32 (or $29 if UK took Norway).
And even if Japan has pushed out all the way to Persia and has taken Australia/NZ/Hawaii (and even Alaska), Japan would be at $47.
That means that, with major Russian expansion as outlined above, the Axis would be at $76 or so, NOT $100.
You need to work on your math skills.
@ncscswitch:
Why shouldn’t Germany be able to do a G4-G5 TRN purchase?
Why will the Med be a dead zone to Germany?
Why hsould any built TRNs immediately be sunk?
Why should Africa be lost early?
What are the Allied moves that result in those results?
If you don;t know, I’ll show you in a game sometime…Â Â :evil:
HINT:Â USA and UK to Algeria on Turn 2…
Even if the Germans do NOT move the Med fleet west, I find it very difficult for the Allies to crack the Med, because of the heavy presence of German air.
Please elaborate. What are you doing, building 5 x sub with the US, and carrier for UK?
Maybe, but how many resources have you forced the Allies to commit compared to how much of your own have you committed? And if they screw up, you’re ready to pounce.
You commit 31 IPC.
You have not forced the Allies to commit anything.
Of course, if they screw up, you pounce, tho.
@ncscswitch:
Another matehmatical error there Jen.
If Russia has reached Balkans/Eastern…
Russia will be in the ballpark of 32-35, dependign on if they get one or both of Eastern/Balkans (assuming loss of SFE/Bury/Yakut in the east)
Germany will be up 5-7 in Africa as of R3 at most
Japan can’t take Australia and New Zealand by R3
But UK can grab Norway for the fun of it by then and still have a major fleet and forces in Algeria (using the above example).So, after R3:
Russia is at $32 (going cosnervative and they only got one of Balkans/Eastern and Japan in Yakut/Sinkiang/India)
Germany at $34 (up $7 in Africa, down $13 in Europe)
UK at $23
Japan at $40
USA at $38
So basically, you are making my point stronger by saying Russia is even weaker then my off the top of my head guess? That’s not a good way to make your arguement, dear.
So we have:
Russia: Up: Norway, W. Russia, Belorussia, E. Europe, Balkans (Down: SFE, Bury, Yak, Evenki, Novo, Kazakh)
Germany: Up: Egypt, Italian Africa, FEQ, FWA, Congo, Kenya, S. Africa (Down: Norway, W. Russia, Belorussia, E. Europe, Balkans)
England: Up: Nothing. (Down: Egypt, Italian Africa, FEQ, FWA, India, Australia, Madagascar, New Zealand, Kenya, S. Africa)
Japan: Up: Australia, New Zealand, Madagascar, India, Evenki, Yakut, SFE, Buryatia, Novosibirsk, Kazakh, Sinkiang, China
America: Up: Nothing (Down Sinkiang, China)
Totals in 3 to 5 rounds:
Russia: 32 IPC
Germany: 33 IPC
England: 14 IPC
Japan: 49 IPC
America: 38 IPC
And that, of course, is assuming that England doesn’t fall to Germany which would give the Axis + 8 and the Allies - 8
Quote from: Mork Far on March 13, 2007, 08:07:00 AM
I’ve always enjoyed alot of tanks, with the occasional bomber to raid russias IC’s
as iv’e played (with fairly unproductive opponents in my opinion) germany will hold off russia for a few turns. and invade UK if opportunity presents itself( once had him attack with all of his planes, which he had been constantly purchasing, and a mass majority of them died in AA then the rest from r1 of combat ) meanwhile J1 attack hawaii and exapand in mainland, J2 attack and conquer East US and continue expansion in mainland. J3 invade russia with tanks and planes(get his 4 xtra units out of the way first) then blitz through russia slowly crippling. also slowly crippling US (not able to invade germany due to threat by me ) so on and so forth.
I note that you mentioned that you believed you had fairly unproductive opponents. Frankly, if the US player lost Eastern US on J2, they are not “unproductive”, unless by “unproductive”, you mean horribly bad. The only reason for losing even Western US on J2 would be the destruction of at least three of Japan’s battleships and carriers, plus fighters and transports, plus retake from Central US or Western Canada or Mexico on the following turn.
yes they are horribly bad. so what would be a better way to take it if he actually reinforced it?wait till J3 with around 5trns and the remains of my fleet and navy.
