And a belated one to my Canadian friends as well :)
Happy Holidays
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And happy HOLLY days to you as well.
Damn, once again the pronunciation of the word lends itself more to its Pagan roots than its Christian alteration…
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Merry Christmas Y’all! Too bad we can’t do a White Elephant Board Game Exchange…
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@ncscswitch:
And happy HOLLY days to you as well.
Damn, once again the pronunciation of the word lends itself more to its Pagan roots than its Christian alteration…
Actually, holiday comes from holy-day. It was contracted later. Pagans didn’t have Holy Days, they had ceremonies, feasts, etc, that coincided with the christian holy days (mainly because we stole them, purified them, sanctified them and made them something worth celebrating, then rammed it all down your throat) but that’s all.
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Pagans didn’t have Holy Days, they had ceremonies, feasts, etc, that coincided with the christian holy days (mainly because we stole them, purified them, sanctified them and made them something worth celebrating, then rammed it all down your throat) but that’s all.
:lol:
true jen and there is nothing wrong with adapting to traditional festivities that coincide with God’s will (imho) -
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@ncscswitch:
And happy HOLLY days to you as well.
Damn, once again the pronunciation of the word lends itself more to its Pagan roots than its Christian alteration…
Actually, holiday comes from holy-day. It was contracted later. Pagans didn’t have Holy Days, they had ceremonies, feasts, etc, that coincided with the Christian holy days (mainly because we stole them, purified them, sanctified them and made them something worth celebrating, then rammed it all down your throat) but that’s all.
Don;t tell me about Paganism Jen, I think I am a bit better informed in that department :-P
The point was that HOLLY has been an integral part of Pagan celebration around the Winter Solstice for a hell of a long time (thus the Christian mutation of the Holly Berries representing the Blood of Christ).
Every think that HOLY came from HOLLY? I mean the Catholics stole and bastardized everything else (including the story of the Resurrection) so why not Holly/Holy?
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what is wrong with metaphorically adapting an integral part of solstice celebrations to christianity? doesn’t God accept usfor who we are and where we came from? (it is we who continually reject Him)
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Or is the Christian God simply a construct of people who were rejected by the clergy of the various Pagan denomination who then cobbled together various myths from a variety of religions (Judaism, Mithraism, etc.), slapped a name on it, and it somehow stuck and grew?
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somehow?
even in the face of greater persecution than the Jews faced it stuck and grew miraculous one might say -
But it was not new.
It was the best of Mithraism, the best of Judaism, the best of Paganism, mixed in with a healthy dose of anti-establishment fervor.
And Martin Luther repeated that success 1500 years later when he added HIS Pagan elements, Nationalism, and anti-establishment fervor, and created Protestantism, which grew EVEN FASTER than Catholicism….
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Posted by: ncscswitch
And Martin Luther repeated that success 1500 years later when he added HIS Pagan elements, Nationalism, and anti-establishment fervor, and created Protestantism, which grew EVEN FASTER than Catholicism….
so a christian faith that derided the corruption of catholic rome was a bad thing?
of course it struck a chord with regular folks who were tired of the twisting of the whole point of Christ’s message -
Don;t get me wrong, I have no argument with Martin Luther’s stance against corruption.
Just realize that technically he is a heretic and Protestantism is heretical.
Also, the point was not about Martin Luther’s revolt against corruption, but to show that, like the original version of Christianity, it was derived from other religion(s) that preceeded it and was DESIGNED to be popular and win people over. You take Nationalist pride elements, some things from earlier religions that have done well, stir until well blended, and VOILA!
When you trace the origins of Christianity, and compare it to various other religions that existed at the time, it is painfully obvious that Christianity was just a blending of existing religions with a few new elements. And knowing that, and when looking at the story of the ressurection of Christ in particular and comparing it to the Mithraic myth cycle… well, the “truth” of it becomes a bit hard to believe. I just don;t see TWO religions in the same area having identical tales of a ressurection, seperated in history by 300 years, and the LATER one is the Gospel Truth. Far more likely, the later religion stole the entire myth and integrated into their own new religion (Occams Razor).
And if you acknowledge that the ressurection was a “myth theft”, then there is not a hell of a lot of “truth” left to anchor Christianity anymore, is there?
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NC - there was a lot more to Christ than his resurrection. (also note that Christ is not the first Biblical person to have died and resurrected according to the Bible).
Also i’m not so sure that Protestants are really considered heretics - unless perspective is the important key here. I have belonged to the Mennonite sect. They have removed any vestige of Catholic or Protestant artifact-of-faith and try to adhere to the New Testament in theology as closely as possible. I suppose that we could be considered heretics, however from a purely doctrinal stance, this is an inaccurate label.
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Just going in terms of chronology as far as who is and who is not a heretic.
I mean, most Christians in this area are dead certain that Mormons are heretics, probably almost as certain as the Papacy was that Martin Luther was a heretic (I think they even formally charged him as a heretic).
Yes, there are other resurrections, but the resurrection of Christ is the foundation of Christianity. The rest is fluff in all honesty. It is the resurrection that shows without doubt that Christ is the savior of mankind, that demonstrates his divinity, that provides the foundation of everlasting life through salvation, etc.
Remove that anchor point, remove that myth that was taken as whole cloth from Mithraism, and you have stories about a great philosopher and moral leader… perhaps one not too different from Martin Luther King. The resurrection is what MAKES Christianity a successful religion, it embodies all that Christianity is and believes. Without it, you have nothing.
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Well, you really need Christ to be God as well. Otherwise he is there with the three others in the Bible who died and were resurrected.
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Yes, the mid-winter festival included holly, but holidays come from the conjunction of Holy and Day. You did not work on a Holy Day because it was against the tenaments of the Catholic Church. Thus you had HolyDays or Holidays.
BTW, the original midwinter festival was about being lude, drunk and rude. Christians turned it around into a day of remembrance for Christ and of sharing gifts and good will. Though, it was still a day of drunken lewdness for many centuries until around the turn of the century, last. That’s why America did not officially recognize the day originally, and, in fact, required the government to remain open on that day for decades after our creation.
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Remove that anchor point, remove that myth that was taken as whole cloth from Mithraism
why do you suppose that Christianity flourished even though everyone was trying to kill them off and Mithraism died out?
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It flourished because it was based on the original religion of the world. A monotheistic deity that based it’s stance on godhood by advocating love, peace and friendship which are aspects that man outwardly desire, even if inwardly we act for war, violence and hate.
Heck, even the Muslims worship the same God the Christians do. It’s just a different prophet they cling too.
Jews, Muslims and Christians worship God.
Pagans worship everything, including themselves. (Depends on your flavor of paganism.)
Polytheists worship multiple gods
Buddists/Scientologists worship themselves
Most scientists worship themselves
Athiests/Agnostics don’t worship anything, but they may or may not conceed that a God exists.
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Jen, your last post shows just HOW LITTLE you know of other religions.
You can’t lump Agnostic and Atheist together. They are actually almost diametrically opposed.
And you OBVIOUSLY HAVE NO CLUE about Paganism.
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If you can lump Catholics, Mormons, Luthrens, Church of Christ, etc together, I most certainly can lump all pagans together including Wiccans, Druids, etc, as well as Agnostics and Athiests.
Athiest: No God
Agnostic: God, but I don’t care.Net Effect: Same thing.
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