Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships

If an aircraft is on MAP and a submarine enters the sea zone, the aircraft decides if it wants to engage the submarine. If it declines, the submarine may continue moving. If the aircraft engages, it gets one shot at the submarine before it submerges, ending its movement.

Now what happens if four submarines enter the sea zone with an aircraft on MAP? Does the aircraft get one shot at each submarine? Could someone argue that only one submarine can be engaged and the others may continue movement? My understanding is the MAP stops all four submarines if the aircraft chooses engagement, but the aircraft only gets one roll to try and hit one of the submarines.

Page 36, 8.9 Submarines, “A destroyer may pair 1:1 with aircraft on MAP to participate in an attack on a submarine.”

If an aircraft on MAP with a paired destroyer attack 3 submarines, it is my understanding we resolve the attack against just one of the submarines and the other 2 are not involved.

Let’s say four submarines enter a sea zone with a CVE, a fighter, and 2 destroyers. The fighter may act as if it is on MAP and chooses to do so. The MAP may then choose to engage in combat. It chooses to do so. Now we are going to have naval combat with four submarines vs the CVE, a fighter, and 2 destroyers. Do I have this correct?

To summarize:

1. Sole aircraft on MAP with no friendly naval units vs multiple submarines - 1 roll, but can stop them all?
2. 1 MAP + 1 DD vs multiple submarines, only 1 submarine participates in the combat. Correct?
3. MAP + friendly naval units can force moving enemy submarines into naval combat on the enemy turn, correct?

@hbg-gw-enthusiast said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

Page 35, Maritime Air Patrol, Starting a Patrol: “Move aircraft into position within range and place a Maritime Air Patrol marker underneath.”

Does anyone do this? First, is there even a MAP marker we can purchase? Second, do we really need to do this? If there is a plane flying in a sea zone, it’s on MAP, right? Third, how does it work if someone wants to fly MAP in a sea zone where you are also going to have naval combat. Say you are moving 2 BB’s, 2 CA’s and 2 CL’s into a sea zone containing an enemy BB, CA, and CL. You also fly a sea plane into that sea zone on MAP and decline to participate in the naval combat. So you fight out the naval battle without the sea plane, correct?

HBG has a “Combat Air Patrol” marker which can serve that purpose. CAP was introduced in Axis & Allies Pacific, I believe.

If you don’t have the markers, a colored chip under the plane can do the job.

I think it’s a good practice to distinguish between your aircraft left on MAP an aircraft that must return to base during the non-combat move, as they do not have the same range.

@noneshallpass Always appreciate your input and insights, Noneshallpass! I do have the CAP markers, so I’ll use those.

@hbg-gw-enthusiast said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

1. Sole aircraft on MAP with no friendly naval units vs multiple submarines - 1 roll, but can stop them all?

Rule 8.7 says that an aircraft on MAP may choose to engage in combat with “naval enemy units” that are in its sea zone and that defends against “enemy units” entering its sea zone. In both instances there is the use of plural, so I don’t see that you need to have a plane for each submarine.

@hbg-gw-enthusiast said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

2. 1 MAP + 1 DD vs multiple submarines, only 1 submarine participates in the combat. Correct?

I think that the 1:1 ratio in rule 8.9 applies to the MAP and destroyer, so that you cannot send multiple destroyers to hunt subs if you only have one MAP aircraft, not the ratio vs the subs.

I believe that the 1 MAP + 1 DD would get a shot at each sub in that zone.

@hbg-gw-enthusiast said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

3. MAP + friendly naval units can force moving enemy submarines into naval combat on the enemy turn, correct?

The MAP aircraft alone can force that if it wishes and does not need friendly units (rules 8.7 + 8.9).

@noneshallpass It’s not that I “need” friendly units. I “want” them! I understand that the MAP alone can force the submarine into a fight. And I get that a MAP + DD can engage a submarine in combat on the MAP player’s turn. But what I wanted to ensure (before making another video and causing confusion), is that on the submarine player’s turn, the MAP player can force the submarine to fight all the naval forces in a sea zone if that submarine moves in.

On the MAP player’s turn, they cannot do this. They can’t move say 10 surface ships and a MAP into a sea zone and force a sub pack to fight them. They can only go after subs with MAP + DD pairs (at best).

But on the sub player’s turn, if a sub moves into a sea zone with 10 BB’s, 20 CL’s and one MAP, then the MAP can stop them and force them to fight the armada. That’s my understanding.

@noneshallpass said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

I believe that the 1 MAP + 1 DD would get a shot at each sub in that zone.

Do others agree? If so, very powerful! 8 )

@hbg-gw-enthusiast I would believe so. You are forcing to subs to attack you. Thus I think since you are the defender, everyone gets to fight.

@trig said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

@hbg-gw-enthusiast I would believe so. You are forcing to subs to attack you. Thus I think since you are the defender, everyone gets to fight.

Thanks for the confirmation! Didn’t want to misinform others!

@hbg-gw-enthusiast
Remember, no matter who initiated combat, if it is your turn, you are the attacker. Thus, if a sub moved into a zone with MAP that chose to engage, then the sub would be “attacking” and suffer the consequences of that.

@trig

@trig said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

@hbg-gw-enthusiast
Remember, no matter who initiated combat, if it is your turn, you are the attacker. Thus, if a sub moved into a zone with MAP that chose to engage, then the sub would be “attacking” and suffer the consequences of that.

I’m not sure that’s correct. On Page 35 of the rules, there is an example in the lower right bottom of the page. “…Since it’s the German player’s turn, they will use their defense values against the sub…”

@hbg-gw-enthusiast
In the glossary, it says that attacker is the one who is taking their turn. Even if the UK started the combat by choosing to stop the sub, the Germans are still the attacker.
The UK plane would be on defense and use its defense value.

@trig You are absolutely correct and we agree. I had a reading comprehension failure with what you first wrote. We are on the same page. Should have known if I was thinking you were wrong, I should have paused a beat and reread. 8 )

The idea that the MAP aircraft + all defending naval units get to fire at each submarine entering is really bothering me and feels wrong.

Like I said above, if four submarines enter a sea zone with a single plane flying MAP, I feel the MAP aircraft should be able to stop them from further movement, but then get just one roll total to kill potentially one submarine, then the rest withdraw/submerge.

Noneshallpass and Trig argue that if four submarines enter the sea zone, the MAP aircraft gets four rolls, one for each. The way to conceptualize their position is each submarine enters the sea zone, one by one, and the MAP aircraft gets a chance to spot/destroy each one.

But then we add in friendly naval units for the MAP aircraft. If there are 5 BB’s, 5 CA’s, 5 DD’s, and 1 CVE with a fighter being attacked by 100 submarines, with Noneshallpass and Trig’s method, the BB/CC/DD/CVE force defeats the subs piecemeal, one by one. I must not be understanding.

My conceptualization is the MAP stops as many naval units as it wants, then we proceed to one giant naval battle. So if 4 subs enter, the MAP can stop them all, but then gets 1 roll.

@hbg-gw-enthusiast
Remember, those subs are attacking. This means that you would resolve that battle like normal. Those subs would attack or decide to submerge, and then any Defending ships would get to shot beach. After that, the sub could decide to submerge if they survived. All the MAP does if force the subs to fight, just like a destroyer in G40.

The FAQ says:
“Q: The rules say subs can’t decline combat if there is a plane on Maritime Air Patrol present, so, that means that every single ship in that sea zone gets to fire on the sub, if an aircraft on MAP is present?
A: If you attack the sub:
Only the aircraft on MAP (+ any optional paired Destroyer may fire at the sub)
If the sub attacks you :
All ships / aircraft may fire at the sub”

According to 0.9
“The Attacker is the player who is currently taking a turn.”

Thus, if a sub is moving through a sea zone, and is stopped by a plane on MAP, any and all ships in the sea zone would get to shoot at the attacking sub. This is the same no matter if there is one sub or 20.

@trig Thank you very much for your patience, Trig! Here’s the question I originally posed:

Now what happens if four submarines enter the sea zone with an aircraft on MAP? Does the aircraft get one shot at each submarine? Could someone argue that only one submarine can be engaged and the others may continue movement? My understanding is the MAP stops all four submarines if the aircraft chooses engagement, but the aircraft only gets one roll to try and hit one of the submarines.

I get the whole attacker/defender thing. Since the four submarines are entering the sea zone with MAP, the MAP has the opportunity to force them to fight a combat. You wrote, “This means that you would resolve that battle like normal.” Yeah, that’s my position. Normal wouldn’t be one attack against each sub. Normal would be the aircraft only gets one roll (i.e. a sea plane rolls at “1” on a D12) to try and hit one of the submarines, right?

@hbg-gw-enthusiast No, remember, this is normal as in the subs attacking. You would place all forces, the four subs, and whatever ships or planes are in the sea zone, on the battle board and do combat. The subs could chose to submerge, but every ship or plane gets a shot.

Let’s look at a example-
Say 4 German subs moved into the English channel.
There are 3 destroyers, 1 heavy cruiser, and a light carrier with a fighter there.
The UK player chooses to stop the subs and engage in combat.
All forces are placed on the battleboard.
The German subs each chose to fight or submerge. 2 chose each.
The 2 subs fighting roll and get one hit. this is not first strike, and the UK elects to lose a destroyer.
The UK player then shots back with all his ships’ defense values and gets 3 hits.
The German player loses 3 subs- the 2 that fought, and one that was submerging.
The lone surviving sub submerges and the battle is over.

I hope that makes sense.

@trig @trig said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

Say 4 German subs moved into the English channel.
There are 3 destroyers, 1 heavy cruiser, and a light carrier with a fighter there.
The UK player chooses to stop the subs and engage in combat.
All forces are placed on the battleboard.
The German subs each chose to fight or submerge. 2 chose each.
The 2 subs fighting roll and get one hit. this is not first strike, and the UK elects to lose a destroyer.
The UK player then shots back with all his ships’ defense values and gets 3 hits.
The German player loses 3 subs- the 2 that fought, and one that was submerging.
The lone surviving sub submerges and the battle is over.

I agree entirely with your description!
So, back on page 2, I posed a similar analogy, just with a MAP and a DD as the defending fleet with four submarines moving into the sea zone.

Noneshallpass wrote, “I believe that the 1 MAP + 1 DD would get a shot at each sub in that zone.”

I was surprised and asked for confirmation that this was true, because it would be very powerful.

You responded, “I would believe so.”

I thought and thought about it, and it didn’t make sense. So, I wrote, “The idea that the MAP aircraft + all defending naval units get to fire at each submarine entering is really bothering me and feels wrong.”

In order to make it clear that I meant it doesn’t make sense that the MAP + defending naval units get to fire a round at each sub in the zone, I gave an analogy of the 100 subs entering one by one. Instead of MAP + defending naval units getting one shot at each sub, I thought it should work as you describe, above.

When all is said and done, you and I totally agree on how it is resolved when submarines combat move into sea zones with MAP. I feel ready now to make another video. Thanks and so sorry for the confusion!

@hbg-gw-enthusiast Correct, No harm done! You will never fight more than one battle with one unit.