Correct.
Battle for the Atlantic
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I still believe that 3 Baltic transports is not a good purchase. Unfortunately, I guess I’m not doing a good job expressing my point since we are still at a standstill. I don’t know how to say my point in any clearer a manner.
Duke, I don;t think Tri has been advocating 3 trannies. His prefered open is an AC in the Baltic that is loaded wtih 2 existing FIGS. That has Germany building land forces even to Russia while also setting UK’s landings back 2-3 rounds at least. I attempted this move in my last game with Tri, and it worked well for me even with a lack of full execution. I did not consolidate the Med fleet with the Baltic fleet in the Atlantic, dinot forward stage my Baltic fleet and allowed them to get bottled up, and failed to use my subs to maximum advantage. Even with these screw ups, I still held UK and US out of Europe until Turn 4. And I did not have massed UK and US forces to deal with until Turn 6.
Maybe we should just play it out a couple times to see how good or bad the naval purchase really is. I have never played online before just because I like the social aspect of playing the board game in person. I have been meaning to try out online play. What software do you use for online play? If it’s freeware, I’ll get it and we can play 1 or 2 games to see the probable long term effects of a G1 Baltic naval purchase. (This way I get to say I’ve played against a skilled UK player :wink: )
Duke, Wes and I have been playing honor system using physical game boards and dice. We each set up the board on our end, post our moves, roll the dice, post the results, and game that way.
I REALLY enjoy doing it that way. Almost like playing someone across the table from you, but you get more time to think about your moves in between (since our last game was played over about a week and involved probably 20 hours of online time.) And to be honest, playing honor system is not that big of a deal. Everyone gets hot dice occasionally, and everyone’s dice go cold from time to time. For example, in the last game, with 2 exceptions, my dice got hot several times when it did not matter: massive overkill like 6 hits on 3 units. And my dice often went cold allowing Tri to take a significant number of battles without any losses at all. So long as the dice are in flux, you know you are playing an honest person. If the dice are always in someone’s favor; if every roll is above average, then you know you are not playing a fair opponent.
But who would want to bother playing that way? If you are going to tilt the dice, what is the point?
If you want an example of how we did it, go to the Games forum and read our revised match.
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Isn’t it pretty plainly easy to see that linking the navy on G2 is hard to deal with?
When someone talks about linking the German navy I immediately think they are talking about joining the Baltic and Med. navies somewhere in the North Atlantic; or at least the Atlantic sub with one of the 2 afore mentioned navies. Are you using linking to refer to adding purchases to an already present navy?
I typically go for trying to link the Baltic and Med. navies. I think it’s the best use of the already borderline worthless Baltic navy. I don’t agree that investing any more money in that worthless navy is going to revive it. It’s dead. Hoping to mutually annihilate the UK navy is not worth the money that is required to do so. It is hard to explain why because the ill effects of this purchase aren’t felt by Germany until many turns later in the game. Although, I have to say that I would not disagree with buying 1 transport for the Med. navy if Germany doesn’t mind leaving the BB and transport in S. Europe SZ on G1.
Let me give it one more shot at making my case. For this try I’ll look more big picture.
1. Germany invests a lot of money on Baltic navy. Then they bring everything on G2. Let’s consider any outcome falls into either of the following 2 categories:
A: SZ battle goes better than expected (or just as expected) for Germany. Germany beats UK navy and still has some naval units left. What then? These are then unprotected and thus picked off, but even if they aren’t, what is Germany going to do with them? Invade UK after G2? That’s not going to happen. Link up with the Med. navy? Well if that’s what you wanted to do then why didn’t Germany just place the G1 naval units in Med. to begin with? Bottom line: Win for Germany doesn’t help much (even though it is the most probable outcome, not much help is still not much help).
B. SZ battle goes worse than expected for Germany. Some the UK’s navy survived and/or some of the Luftwaffe has been destroyed. This is not likely but UK can capitalize on this win a lot more than Germany can with their win. UK and US get an unexpected head start into Europe.
Unlike Germany, the UK can instantly place naval units in SZ 6. If Germany could also place purchases there without spending 15 IPCs to do it (obvious bad idea- not worth 15 IPCs) then it would be a slightly different story and Germany might be able to capitalize on a SZ 6 win more. But they can’t place units there so the whole Atlantic front sucks for Germany. This is what I meant when I said it’s a lose-tie front for Germany. As Germany, accept it, suck it up and deal with it, and pull back your front onto the land. A stand in the water gives UK too much advantage with all those SZs they can place there purchases in at the drop of a hat.
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Duke, Tri is talking about spending ONLY 16 IPC’s on navy… 1 AC in the Baltic on G1.
You then land 2 existing figs on it, still within range to use for land attacks, but the combined loaded carrier adds 11 defensive points to your fleet, an average of 2 kills per round against any attacker.
As for Consolidation, yes he is refering to both the Baltic and Med fleets.
G1 build as above, Med BB and Tranny with North Atlantic sub and land based FIGS take out the Gibraltar BB without loss (BB is wounded by the 1 defensive shot the UK BB will get).
G2, the Med fleet of 1 BB, 1 TRN, 1 SUB move to SZ7
also in G2, the Baltic fleet of 2 SUB, 1 DST, 1 AC, and 2 FIG sail to SZ7What are you going to attack that VERY powerful fleet with in the early going as UK and/or US when you will be losing 4 Attack units per round to defensive fire, and with enough screening vessels (2 TRN and 3 subs) to keep the BB, 2 FIGS, and the AC alive and kicking for several rolls?
As I posted elsewhere, you need a total of 12 hits against that navy to sink it, and the first 6 hits only reduce the average kill against the attacker from 4.33 a round to 3.
You spend a mere 16 IPC’s on Navy, and MORE THAN DOUBLE the defensive power of it.
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A: SZ battle goes better than expected (or just as expected) for Germany. Germany beats UK navy and still has some naval units left. What then? These are then unprotected and thus picked off, but even if they aren’t, what is Germany going to do with them? Invade UK after G2?
I never said Germany was meant to be naval power; the whole point of the Baltic fleet is to be suicidal and to delay. For the price of 16 IPCs this is well worth it.
A: SZ battle goes better than expected (or just as expected) for Germany. Germany beats UK navy and still has some naval units left. What then? These are then unprotected and thus picked off, but even if they aren’t, what is Germany going to do with them? Invade UK after G2? That’s not going to happen. Link up with the Med. navy? Well if that’s what you wanted to do then why didn’t Germany just place the G1 naval units in Med. to begin with? Bottom line: Win for Germany doesn’t help much (even though it is the most probable outcome, not much help is still not much help).
You can
a) Buy nothing for it, and lose it to 2 fighters/1bomber and the UK will likely only lose 1 fighter.
or
b) Use 16 IPCs on it, and cash in your entire baltic navy for the UK’s 2 fighters, battleship, 2 transports, destroyer, and carrier (if the UK is so stupid to try to block the link on UK1).
Hmmm……that’s really not favorable to the UK you know. Losing the battleship means no more shore bombardments, and even more reliance on the US to shield you. The UK also has to rebuild transports…and no more fighters to help out either…
If I had some naval units left, great! They’ll just straggle around waiting to die, hopefully claiming 1 or 2 US/UK fighters since they still have to be put down. I only think you should spend 16 IPCs for a carrier and nothing further if you don’t like the idea of 3 transports.
B. SZ battle goes worse than expected for Germany. Some the UK’s navy survived and/or some of the Luftwaffe has been destroyed. This is not likely but UK can capitalize on this win a lot more than Germany can with their win. UK and US get an unexpected head start into Europe.
It’d have to swing pretty heavily…. a group of 6 fighters + 1 bomber + 1 trans + 2 subs + 1 carrier + 1 destroyer will win 98% of the time against a battleship, fully loaded carrier, destroyer, and 2 transports. You would expect 5 hits on average from the German force in the first turn, and barely over 3 hits for the UK in the first turn…very most likely the both navies will be toast next turn with 1 and usually none of the airforce dead.
For 16 German IPCs spent, you have toasted not just the 28 IPCs that the UK spent to block your fleet in SZ6, but also claimed his battleship, 2 transports, and 2 fighters in the deal. You have also forgone the need to siphon extra defensive troops into Western Europe this turn, which can easily be worth the 16 IPCs you spend on a carrier in the first turn. You still have your full airforce intact a large amount of the time, as well.
Morever, the Med fleet is still alive and is more than free to go back to Africa now that it has nothing to link with.
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