Simplifying units interactions of Transports, Submarines, Destroyers & planes

@Narvik:

yes, subs independent retreat, that was the missing link.

OOB you can submerge your subs and retreat the planes, and let the surface warships continue the battle. It should be the other way around too. Retreat the ships, but not the subs, or the planes.

I didn’t thought about surfaces ships only retreat.
It certainly could works with planes and Subs left behind to try to finish off enemy’s units in the SZ.

I was pondering whether or not Transport should retreat only with warships or have more latitude by being able to choose to retreat with Submarines (& eventually planes) or with warships.

Any idea what could be better or fairer?

@Narvik:

yes, subs independent retreat, that was the missing link.

OOB you can submerge your subs and retreat the planes, and let the surface warships continue the battle. It should be the other way around too. Retreat the ships, but not the subs, or the planes.

Nonetheless, I think that from a rule perspective, it will be simpler to limit such a retreat to Sub only.

In addition, in the first few combat rounds of a Naval clash, Destroyers and planes will be discarded (even 2 hits Carriers), to let survive Battleship, Cruiser and StB (maybe).

And for balance, we must consider that Subs on defense cannot be used as fodder as long as there is any surviving warships, defender cannot retreat. And with a high @2 first strike attack, Subs in itself can be very damaging to a Surface fleet unable to shield itself with Subs (rolling a low @1 for defense and chosen as the last warship casualties), as it was usually the case in OOB.

However, even without DD, a defending fleet would use her Fgs to a greater range of success against Subs than OOB (per cannot hit subs without DD rule).

@crusaderiv:

Subs must be independent of the rest of the fleet.
In defense and in attack.
Subs must play first and once the subs are done, go ahead with the warships.

AL

I knew and played this Subs mechanics develop in World War II The Expansion.
It works with Classics.
These rules add more phases and have more layers of complexity.

For example, Battleship and Carrier can be sunk by a single Subs hit.
There is Anti-Sub mission, Air Search Communication.
1 roll to find Subs and 1 roll to hit them.
Subs have a whole round of fire without any reaction. Except for Destroyers.

That’s the few which I remember.

There is no possibility of using Subs and Planes together to attack.
It makes Subs less useful and lonely.

The Subs have a very different mechanics from all other units.

That’s why I tried to develop a more integrated Subs mechanics without loosing all the historical background on Subs.

I think that not being able to use Subs as cheap fodder will make them less popular, they can still works independently as OOB.
And they can attack and defend with all others units as OOB.

Here is a link to another thread in which I try to adapt WWII The Expansion to OOB rules:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=32248.msg1208515#msg1208515
Planes attack Subs @1 in this version (combining Search @2 * destroy @3 = 2/6*3/6 = 6/36 or 1/6)

Below, there is two of your old quotes, explained why I knew what Subs rules you used:
@crusaderiv:

You cant take a battleship with a missed die roll! no way, Will not fly. that would mean whenever a sub enters a sea zone on a combat move that contains a battleship or carrier they are automatic sunk? like all your rules but you need to think this one out better.

Nevertheless it’s very realistic.
Fishmoto rules seems like the elaborate naval rules from - World war II the expansion for use  with A&A-
I based my naval game with this expansion with of course… some house rules.
Subs can’t get a zone of control and may pass through a sea zone controlled by ennemy without
engaging combat.

I always liked the idea about escort. During WW II, Capitals warships sails with destroyers.
When they were alone, they became an easy targets.

If a carrier is hit by a sub, carrier and fighter on board must be destroyed!

@crusaderiv:

I just have a problem sinking a piece without even rolling a dice.
Same thing here.
You must rolling die to sink a warship escorted or not.

The only long range sortee by unescorted battleships that I have ever heard of are the German convoy raiders of WW II. I just feel that there should be some penalty for a player doing such a foolish thing in AA. Maybe a one shot attack and then submerge is enough.

Either subs attacking unescorted capitol warships get 1 roll, if a 1-2 ship sunk on 1st hit. if sub misses,sub is considered submerged,breaks off attack,but if it stays in sea zone to try again next turn or follows same shipsinto another sea zone to try again next turn, destroyer and cruisers detection roll is upped to 1-4 becouse sub is known to be activly prowling area.

Well if a player let his warship alone, it could be destroyed.
Sub must continue his attack after the first round of combat or warship alone can escape after the first round. - But I prefer the first option-.

@crusaderiv:

It makes Subs less useful and lonely.
Lonely yes…Useful? Absolutely not…!
Subs are the most dangerous unit in the sea. Specially against transport and convoy.
All units have their utility.
Plane and sub attack in the same time is too powerful.
AL.

We are talking apples and oranges.
My POV is based on OOB Subs rules (which can be modified by my HR to make subs a non-fodder unit for warships, but still keeping OOB Air and Subs coordinate attacks against a mixed fleet).
Your answer is based on your HR which keeps apart warships & DDs, on 1 side, and Transports & DEs (Destroyer Escorts), on the other side. If you still follow World War II Expansion.

In addition, according to this rule Subs can only attack by themselves whether against Warships & DDs or against TPs & DEs.

I know, because have tried it many times on a Classic board, these rules creates an interesting historical dynamics with Air Search Communication for planes and Anti-Sub Mission for DDs and DEs.
However, they are much more complexes than the OOBs rules (and not for everyone’s taste).
In addition, it may swing the balance of the game by spreading a lot of difficult to find and destroy Subs which can target transports with DEs only.
You probably can tell us.

Here is the first post along this Sub thread in which you explain some aspects of your Subs HR.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=32780.msg1251173#msg1251173

Did you ever develop somewhere in the forum a complete summary of your adapted WWII Expansion Sub Rules (including the stats of both DD and DE)?
Probably some peoples would like to try yours for change, if they are tired of seeing Subs sinking in the bottom of the ocean so fast in OOB.

Having more options, besides Knp’s (1 rnd submerge after being attacked), DK’s (1:1 DD blocker vs Sub) or mine (Sub is taken as the last warships casualty+ independent retreat + DK’s), to solve the Destroyers aberrations against Submarines is certainly a good thing.

Crusader IV,
I have also developed an alternate Subs rules to solve some aberrations issues a few months ago.
Here is one old and very different Sub HR which allows to use Subs with other warships but required a roll to find them, as you suggested.
However, it solved only 3 out 4 issues.
It didn’t solve the Subs fodder effect as my actual HR on Subs is last warships casualties taken.

In this old HR, Subs have a much better survival rate when operating alone but can be used as cheap fodder because planes can hit them without Destroyers simplifying this interaction. As you will see, the detection rule is a bit complex due to combined arms effect of DDs or planes with Cruiser & Subs :

@Baron:

Here, I want to submit another different rules mechanics for aircrafts, destroyers and submarines warfare.
It will reintroduce some aspects discuss in previous threads on Subs and I intent to put it somewhere half-way between the OOB Sub mechanics and the classic Sub mechanics.

I will also try to respect as much as possible historical accuracy about planes vs subs, and as much as possible not to be overly complex (the real challenge).

The main distinction in this Subs HR mechanics is based upon the difference between:
a) defending Subs alone (or with Transports) in a SZ and
b) defending Subs with other Warships (DD, CA, CV, BB) in a SZ.

First, keep as a basic background the OOB Sub A2D1M2C6 and his capacities for submerge and surprise strike.

Second, all planes keep their basic combat value against subs Fg A3D4 / TcB A3-4D3 /StB A4.

Third, we need to introduce an Air Search Patrol (for planes) and an Anti-Sub Mission (for warships: Subs, Cruisers, Destroyers but excluding capital ones: CV and BB) which take place when attacking in a single SZ a group of Subs only, or Subs with Transports only.

Air Search Patrol:
All planes have to search and find Subs in a SZ before attacking them.
A plane unit needs a “1” or less to find a Sub.
If at least 1 plane succeed, then all planes can then make a regular attack, for 1 round only (before the Subs submerge).
In addition, if at least 1 DD is present (doing an Anti-Sub Mission), each plane unit needs a “2” or less to find a Sub.
(Said otherwise, a DD unit gives +1 to ASP or ASM rolls.)

Anti-Sub Mission:
Each Destroyer unit needs a “2” or less to find a Sub.
Only successful DDs can then make a regular attack, for 1 round only (before the Subs submerge).
In addition, if at least 1 plane is present (doing an Air Search Patrol), each DD unit needs a “3” or less to find a Sub.
(Said otherwise, an aircraft unit gives +1 to ASM rolls.)

OPTIONAL:
Other warships (excluding CV and BB), Subs and Cruisers need a “0” or less to find Sub.
That’s means that these warships need to be with DD or plane to perform an ASM.
If a plane or a DD is present, it needs a “1” or less to find Subs.
If both plane and DD is present, it needs a “2” or less to find Subs.
Only a successful Sub or Cruiser can then make a regular attack, for 1 round only (before the Subs submerge, if defender choose to do so).

OPTIONAL:
EXCEPTIONAL Non-Combat Move allowance
ASM implies to use escorting vessels, such as DD, to be perform in the Subs SZ, and could implies to leave behind bigger ships needing protection and cover.
So, exceptionally, this optional rule can allow a complete 2 spaces move to any unit performing ASM one SZ away from his starting point. So if the combat take place after using only 1 move, all ASM ships are allowed 1 space Non-combat move in any SZ bordering the one in which they performed ASM. This exceptional ASM NCM move is not a 3 spaces move allowance.

ASP and ASM are considered simultaneous.

When all the search rolls are done, only the successful warships and all or none of the planes (according to the ASP results) are considered part of the first combat round.
If the defending Subs stay for another round instead of submerging, then all the attacking warships and planes will be part of the second round.

Subs alone on defense:
Except for planes (which subs cannot hit), defending subs get a Defense roll @1.
Against Destroyer (and other subs), Subs have no surprise strike.
Addendum: The attacker’s casualties from Subs can be taken amongst all warships units in the SZ, not just the ones which spotted the Subs. As usual, owner choose casualty.

If OPTIONAL is included:
Against Cruiser, subs keep the surprise strike @1 as long as there is no DD present.
Defending Subs can always choose not to submerge after submitting to the first round of ASP or ASM.
If it is the case, then, this time, all the attacker’s units in the SZ get a round of direct fire on subs.
It lasts as long as the defender choose not to submerge (or even destroy all attacker’s warships unit!?).

---

Defending Subs with other warships (DD, CA, CV, BB) and scrambling planes (Fg or TcB).
When others warships or scrambling planes are present, their is no need to search for Subs (via ASP or ASM).
All planes and warships attack at their regular value.

However, if there is no attacking DD, Subs keep all capacities (first strike & submerge) and Subs commander can choose to submerge any or all subs during the surprise strike phase.
Subs can also stay in the battle as cheap fodder for warships, defender’s choice, D0 (vs attacking planes) / D1 (vs attacking warships).

If an attacking DD is present, then Subs can only submerge at the beginning of the second round (during subs submerge phase and before regular combat phase).
And couldn’t retrieve their surprise strike until all attacking DDs are sunk.

---

Finally, I add another little OPTIONAL Rule, which can be isolated from all the above and be part of OOB subs mechanics:
Sub targeting RULE
If Subs on offence get any hit after the first round, the attacker, if he wishes so, can pick a transport as casualty instead of a warships (warships casualties still chosen by owner).

@crusaderiv:

Subs must be independent of the rest of the fleet.
In defense and in attack.
Subs must play first and once the subs are done, go ahead with the warships.
AL

Crusader IV,
here is another Subs HR in which I was mixing 3 games mechanics together:
1- OOB 1940, 1942
2- Classic OOB
3- World War II The expansion I for A&A,  from David Schwartzer.

To create a more integrated Subs rule which could be more of a chess game for Naval Warfare between Subs, planes, warships (CA, CV, BB), escorts ASV (DD and a new CVE) and transports.
All having a specific role with strength and weakness.

The Air Search phase has been deleted by reducing the attack value of planes to @1.
The odds are the same. 2/6*3/6= 6/36 or 1/6
Destroyer get a single roll @2.

One HR I didn’t develop yet was that Subs have 2 options when all these surface vessels are in the same SZ:
1- attack escort and warships
2- attack escort and transports (each TT unit having a 1 hit value but D0), letting the defending player choosing casualties between DD, CVE and TT.

Crusader IV, probably you can provide us some rule mechanics you used to do such separate attack.

@Baron:

WARNING: Some additional specific points written in red are covered to take account all Subs naval warfare situations vs Cruisers and vs Subs.

I’m working on a different kind of naval warfare (a variant I played many times on Classic board which creates a much more chess-like action on the ocean) where Subs act as a lonely and separated group even when sharing the same Sea Zone as other friendly surface vessels and transports.

Here is some little things of this new HR about Sub Warfare (nSWHR).

You will see that some anomalies about planes vs Subs created in OOB 1940 and 1942 will disappear:
A) Planes that need another unit to attack subs.
B) Subs being used as naval cannon fodder for air and naval attack or defense.
–----------------------------------------------------------------
Here is the basics principles:

As OOB, Sub cannot hit air units.

Aircrafts (Fg, TcB, StB) can attack Subs anytime, they get only A1 (same in SBR combat) and don’t need any DD or other AntiSub Vessel (ASV) to destroy Subs.

Battleship cannot attack submarines.
But, BB still defend @4 against subs, and G40 BB and CV (as OOB) can take 1 hit before going down on a second hit.
However, 1942 BB must be treat as a 1 hit unit vs Subs attacks. So 1 single shot can sink it, and it is a good thing to provide them DD/CVE cover.
Play-testing reveal that this change is to make Subs attack an interesting threat against 2 BBs in 1942 version.
Because they immediately recover at the end of the attacking player’s turn. Without this change, such a fleet with 2 BBs at his core, is virtually invulnerable against Subs attack and won’t requires any DD to provide protection and cover vs Subs.

Cruiser Att @3 Def @3 vs subs but it is not an ASV.
It cannot block Sub Surprise strike attack.
It can go AntiSub Mission (ASM) by itself but
Subs can defend @1 with Surprise strike (same capacity as OOB).
So Subs can sink cruisers without ASV before it can even attack (as OOB Sub rule).

Same last rules applied for 1942.2 Fleet carrier: CV A1D2M2C14 in ASM vs Subs.

Destroyer A2D2M2C8, ASV as OOB block Subs Surprise strike, will give _+1A bonus to any one plane (Fg, TcB, StB) when paired with for ASM_.*

There will be an Escort Carrier unit A0D1M2C10, carrying 1 plane (Fg or TcB) ASV, giving a +2A bonus to any one plane (Fg, TcB, StB) paired with while on ASM.

In counterpart, **subs A2D1M2C6 after a defence roll @1 are able to submerge vs all units at the beginning of the second round of an ASM.

On offence, Subs can attack Subs but they don’t get any First round Sneak Attack nor Surprise Attack vs each others same as they were 2 regular ships unit. Defending Subs can still submerge after the first round attack, as said below.

Submerge: allow Sub to withdraw in the same SZ from any battle at the beginning of the second round, and after.

So Subs become more elusive, and have a better chance to hide even when there is an ASV in the SZ (to the contrary of OOB Global and 1942 where ASV also block Subs Submerge ability).

In this HR, it was possible to give plane another attacking value (as in a StratBR/TacBR escorting and intercepting role) because even when sharing a SZ, you treat Subs groups as they were in separate SZs (except for “SZ of control” determination):

if a player with 2Fgs and 3DDs want to attack a SZ with 2DDs and 4 Subs, for example,
he will have to choose between whether attacking DDs group or attacking Subs group.

So, it means either A) 2 Fgs A3 + 3 DDs A2 vs 2DDs or B) 2 Fgs A1+1* + 3DDs A2vs 4 Subs.

Now subs won’t be the cannon fodder of any surface vessels as the OOB will imply in the example.
2 Fgs+ 3 DDs vs 2 DDs + 4 Subs.

Because, in this situation, assuming you protect the better defending and costlier unit: the defender will loose 4 subs before loosing DDs.

And, as usual, the attacker will think twice to throw DDs with aircrafts when there is a bunch of subs.
It is often better to throw only aircrafts to destroy surface vessels so this OOB battle example will only imply: 2 Fgs vs 2 DDs, since Fgs by themselves cannot hit Subs.

What do you think of this first part of the basic principles for Subs warfare?

---

On the other side,
when Subs will be attacking, they will attack in a first wave assault of subs only group (before all others units) until retreating or a victory.

All ASV (DD, escort carrier CVE) will block the Surprise attack as long as there is an ASV defending with other vessels.
So any surface vessels sunk by subs will still be able to fire back, as in OOB.
When there is no more ASV, then Subs will retrieve Surprise attack and any ship sunk won’t be able to fireback, as OOB rule.

Planes will be able to defend against subs (Fg @D4, TcB @D3) without the need of DD (or CVE).

However, Subs will also get a special “First round sneak attack”, which differs from Surprise strike:

during the first round, only ASV (DD or CVE+ 1 Fg or TcB carried) can fireback at subs.

In addition, any successful sub making a hit is allowed (not compelled) _**to withdraw from battle before the DDs and CVEs(+ Fg or TcB on it) return fire against it.

However, all remaining unsuccessful subs must endure the ASV units defender’s rolls before choosing whether or not to withdraw from battle at the very end of the first round.

This “First round sneak attack” rule implies that all others ships including Fleet carrier (CV) and any one or two planes on board can only fireback on the second round and after.
So the new CVE and her 1 plane will have a better defensive and distinctive role from the Fleet carrier against subs.

Example: 2 subs A2 vs 1 DD D2 and 2 cruisers D3

ROUND 1
First rnd sneak attack, subs roll: “1” and “3”, defender choose to sunk the DD.
1 sub can choose to withdraw. And do it.
(It is not the best tactical choice, but it is for simplicity.)

Since it is the first round, only the DD can roll to fireback.
If it is a hit (“1” or “2”) then the remaining sub is sunk, the battle is over and the 2 cruisers survive.

(Supposing both Subs have rolled a hit, then the battle could be over if both Subs withdrawn because the DD cannot hit any remaining unsuccessful sub. However, 1 last cruiser have survived the battle.)

If the DD miss the shot at the last Sub, then this attacking Sub can withdraw (as OOB said).
But, for the example, suppose 1 Sub stays for a second round.

ROUND 2
This lonely sub now have Surprise attack and Submerge since there is no more ASV in the SZ.
As OOB said at the beginning of the round, Sub can either Submerge or make a Surprise strike.
Sub goes for the kill:
a “1” or “2”, then 1 cruiser is sunk without being able to retaliate.
A miss left the possibility to both cruisers to defend @3.

Everything continue as OOB rule said.

---

Finally, after the battle is concluded,
if the remaining subs didn’t kill all the enemy units in the SZ, Subs must retreat 1 SZ from where they came.
if all enemy units are destroyed in the SZ, then subs can choose to either stay in the SZ or they can still retreat 1 SZ from where they came.

What do you think of this second part of the basic principles for Subs warfare?_

To be honest in explorations of alternate HR to solve the Subs aberrations issues. I decided to present this suggestion from Uncrustable.

@Uncrustable:

A simpler fix is leave everything as it stands, but remove all the special submarine rolls. There are no restrictions against air vs submarines. No destroyers required…

Then introduce a new submerge rule, submarines if not submerged can battle it out vs air. No change to any dice values. Any submarine however may choose to submerge before each round of combat (only once per battle and may not resurface once submerged)
Once a submarine submerges it may no longer fire at aircraft, defense or offense.
Conversely aircraft may only roll at submerged submarines if supported by a friendly destroyer on a 1:1 basis.

All submarines are assumed not to be submerged until a battle commences at which point the owner may choose to submerge.

Very simple rule. Basically subs can shoot at planes and planes at subs as long as the sub is on the surface (makes sense). Once subs submerge they cant shoot at the sky anymore (duh!). Each air unit needs a destroyer to roll against submerged submarines.
No changes to any dice values.

It simplify the subs vs planes interactions. And all others situations when transports are involved but at the expense of historical accuracy, when Subs are on attack.
It introduces the 1:1 DD’s blocker capacity.
It recreates a tactical dynamics with Submarines “submerge but blocked” cannot defend against planes, but can she defend against DDs?
While on surface, Subs can defend @1 against all units. Acting on defense like a weaker Destroyer unit.
But it is also possible to attack planes @2, making them as dangerous as any Destroyer unit. (Most problematic aspect of this rule which needs further tuning, IMO)

Besides the ambiguous “submerge Subs blocked by DDs” the other weakness of this HR is that it makes Subs a cheaper padding unit for fleet than destroyer.
Hence, it creates an incentive to have more first combat round Subs Destruction Festival.

@crusaderiv:

i]Basically subs can shoot at planes and planes at subs as long as the sub is on the surface
Sub can shoot planes???
Don’t agree….

Did you ever develop somewhere in the forum a complete summary of your adapted WWII Expansion Sub Rules (including the stats of both DD and DE)?
No because no one ask for it…
Probably some peoples would like to try yours for change, if they are tired of seeing Subs sinking in the bottom of the ocean so fast in OOB.
If there’s a demand….
Our group play with the same sub rules since 15 years…with great success but like all rules…nothing is perfect.

About Subs, at some point during the Atlantic battle, it is true that Hitler gave the order to Subs commander to say on surface and shoot at incoming planes with their AA gun. There is some record of a few planes which were killed by it.

I don’t like Uncrustable HR, but it can becomes playable with a few adjustments. And it is simpler, I think.

On your Subs rules, you answered to a lot of my questions on your rules derived from World War II the Expansion, but these answered are scattered. For my part, I surely like to have a complete understanding of your way of playing with Destroyer and Destroyer Escort in a second edition setting. I believe other would like to read. For my own experience with this kind of rule in a Classic setting, I know it is a bit more complicated than OOB but it is more interesting to use Subs. If it worked for 15 years. I think it worth to be known and share. Don’t you think?

@crusaderiv:

I know it is a bit more complicated than OOB but it is more interesting to use Subs. If it worked for 15 years. I think it worth to be known and share. Don’t you think?

I will but only if there’s enough demand….

Thanks,
it can be easy to see.
People have just to +1 your post, as I just did.

@Baron:

I realized that a real play-test should have less additional rule patch. If it works with less this would be cool enough.

So, here is what I keep for the test.
I’ll go with Classics TP A0 D1 M2 C8.
Subs A2 D1 M2 C6, with OOB Submerge, Surprise Strike, etc.
I keep this single casualty rules:
Subs can be chosen as casualty if there is no eligible surface warship.

Destroyer A2 D2 M2 C8, as DK’s HR: blocks Subs abilities on a 1:1 basis.

Planes can hit Subs anytime, DD not needed.

That is the core of my HR to simplify interactions.
Compared to OOB, there is still only 1 special casualty rule instead of being applied to Transport, it is for Subs.

If it works in Playtest, is funny and units are somewhat balance, then there is no need for additional rules I intended to use in my Opening Post.
Mainly Knp’s 1 round before Submerge and
special retreat move for DDs and Subs.

Could it be enough simplified to everybodys’ taste?

Here is the six points I tested in my last 1942.2 A&A experience:

• Classics TP A0 D1 M2 C8. But taken last casualty.

• Subs A2 D1 M2 C6, with OOB Submerge, Surprise Strike, etc.

• Subs can be chosen as casualty if there is no eligible surface warship.

• Destroyer A2 D2 M2 C8, as DK’s HR: blocks Subs abilities on a 1:1 basis.

• Planes can hit Subs anytime, DD not needed.

• Knp’s 1 round before Submerge

My first impressions are that 1 DD:1 Sub combined with Subs surprise strike makes Destroyer weaker than Subs.

On opening moves, German’s two atlantic Subs were very successful because 1 single preemptive hit was enough to sunk the destroyer without any retaliation. This left a weak Transport defending @1 against two Subs.

The USA’s DD+planes easily get rid of 1 atlantic Subs in the first round (the other sub submerge) but, again, the surviving DD was no match against the 2 remaining U-boats (1 which was able to submerge in the previous battle and the other coming from the previous assault on UK’s Battleship.) The destroyer was again sunk by a preemptive strike.

So, attacking Subs were already deadlier on the same IPCs basis than Destroyer.
But, in any numerical advantage over DDs, it is even more deadlier if DDs cannot retaliate.
And compared to Subs against Subs, in which all defendings Subs still keep their roll @1, it seems very strange and quite unhistorical: Subs can retaliate while Destroyers can’t.

On that point, I come to the same conclusion as Zombie69 here:
@Zombie69:

If you make destroyers work against subs only on a 1:1 basis, you’ll have to increase sub cost to 8 IPCs or they’ll be grossely overpowered. It’s already tough defending against subs when you need to spend 8 IPCs for every 6 IPCs spent by your opponent. If every sub that isn’t matched also gets to make a first strike, then it gets ridiculously overpowered for the guy buying subs. Either that, or bring their attack down to 1 (but I don’t think that would be enough).

It has a big impact on this basic naval unit interaction.
That’s why I think this other idea makes things more balance and still go in the way Zombie suggested (Subs roll @1):

@Baron:

@Baron:

Maybe there should be a difference about attacking DD ability against subs and defending DD against subs.
It seems easier (because of the interaction with defending planes on carrier) to treat defending DD as OOB.

One DD cannot be everywhere.

In fact, 1 DD sculpt means many destroyers ships. And usually they are escorting other attacking warships.
So, they are not scattered around the sea-zone, every ship by itself, hoping to hit a submarine vessel.

I think that even a single defending DD is enough to block all attacking subs surprise strike. I rationalize it this way: to provide a good defense against subs Destroyers just have to stay close to the others warships they are escorting. DD don’t need to be everywhere in a SZ.

On the opposite, when going Anti-Sub mission, they are patrolling a large zone and if they stay too close to each other it will be harder for destroyers to find targets.
That’s why I think the 1:1 restriction better fit for attacking DDs.
In addition, an attacking player always have the opportunity to ponder if he have enough units on his side to make an effective attack and, if not, he will plan something else.
If a defending player have only 1 DD with other warships, there is a lot of chance he will pick the DD as first casualty instead of loosing bigger warships.
So, in the second combat round, a large subs fleet will retrieve his first strike capacity.
Don’t you think?

A single defending DD is enough to block all attacking subs surprise strike. Keeping OOB rule.
However, outnumbering defending Subs can get their surprise strike @1.
This will allows a greater range of tactics when 2 or more Subs are in a SZ (wolf-pack situation) and only a single Destroyer is bring with a lot of planes.
Instead of all submerging but the one blocked Sub, all Subs can rather roll on defense increasing the odds of destroying the attacking Destroyer at the expense of taking the risk of losing more subs.

This change is more accurate with history but makes a distinction between “attacking DDs which can block surprise strike on 1:1 basis” and “defending DDs which block all surprise strike”.
As always, it is at the expense of simplifying.

If someone wants something simpler, I think he should just restrict the 1:1 blocker to Sub’s Submerge only.
Keeping the OOB 1 DD negates Surprise Strike of all Subs.

Other point, the “Knp’s 1 round of Subs under attack before allowed to Submerge” is redundant for 1 or 2 pinned Subs with the 1 DD:1 Sub blocked .
It is because usually the attacker get rid of them in the first combat round. However, this rule can give greater odds of survivability if many Subs are in the same SZs, assuming they cannot be all destroyed in a single round.

For now, I’m not quite sure it worth keeping it, specially if someone wants to simplify interactions between units.

The Subs can be chosen as casualty if there is no eligible surface warship works well.
It allows to make planes works as other units when engaging against Subs.
It requires a small adjusting time at first when taking casualty to not include planes as a prior casualty over Subs. The rule stated warships first, then Subs. Planes can be taken any time before, after or at the same time as Subs.

My first impressions are that 1 DD:1 Sub combined with Subs surprise strike makes Destroyer weaker than Subs.

On opening moves, German’s two atlantic Subs were very successful because 1 single preemptive hit was enough to sunk the destroyer without any retaliation. This left a weak Transport defending @1 against two Subs.

The USA’s DD+planes easily get rid of 1 atlantic Subs in the first round (the other sub submerge) but, again, the surviving DD was no match against the 2 remaining U-boats (1 which was able to submerge in the previous battle and the other coming from the previous assault on UK’s Battleship.) The destroyer was again sunk by a preemptive strike.

So, attacking Subs were already deadlier on the same IPCs basis than Destroyer.
But, in any numerical advantage over DDs, it is even more deadlier if DDs cannot retaliate.
And compared to Subs against Subs, in which all defendings Subs still keep their roll @1, it seems very strange and quite unhistorical: Subs can retaliate while Destroyers can’t.

To Der Kuenstler,
I’m wondering if you get a similar issue with your Subs on the 1:1 DD’s blocking capacity?
And, if not, why?
Is it because of your Classic transports, used as first casualties, thus letting DDs retaliate?
Or because in your play-test all Subs were going Convoy raiding instead of chasing DDs and TPs?
Or maybe, you didn’t see this as an issue?

Here is the six points I tested in my last 1942.2 A&A experience:

• Classics TP A0 D1 M2 C8. But taken last casualty.

• Subs A2 D1 M2 C6, with OOB Submerge, Surprise Strike, etc.

• Subs can be chosen as casualty if there is no eligible surface warship.

• Destroyer A2 D2 M2 C8, as DK’s HR: blocks Subs abilities on a 1:1 basis.

• Planes can hit Subs anytime, DD not needed.

• Knp’s 1 round before Submerge

My first impressions are that 1 DD:1 Sub combined with Subs surprise strike makes Destroyer weaker than Subs.

To correct somehow this issue, maybe this additionnal abilities for Destroyers could work.

Immune to Sub’s Surprise Strike
Anytime a Destroyer is chosen for casualty resulting from a Sub’s Surprise Strike, this Destroyer is allowed to still make a defense roll.

I’m not sure if it really change something compared to OOB: 1 DD cancel all Subs’ Surprise Strike.
With few units, it only add a layer of complexity but didn’t change the result.

Example A: 2 Subs vs 1 DD and 1 Cruiser.
Both Subs get a hit. The owner allocated the surprise strike to DD and the regular to Cruiser.
Same result as with OOB rule.

It change something only if there is at least 2 more Sub units than Destroyer unit.
Example B: 3 Subs vs 1 DD and 2 Cruiser.

If both surprise strikes get a hit, then 1 hit sink Cruiser without allowing it a defense roll.
According to OOB rule, the Cruiser still have a defense roll.

It changes nothing from OOB in the case there is 2 hits but only 1 surprise strike hit.
The surprise strike hit would be allocated to Destroyer then the other to Cruiser.
So, both casualties can keep a defense roll.

Maybe these complex situations provides some way of understanding the ground of OOB simple rule about 1 Destroyer negates all Subs’ surprise strikes.

Here is another post which discuss the 1 DD: 1 Sub ratio.
@Bridger:

I never liked the implementation of destroyers in A&A. Basically all one player has to do to innoculate themselves against sub attacks is build a single destroyer per fleet.

So US and UK each build a single 8 IPC unit (or maybe two) and it completely removes the unit from play for the germans.

Huh? Why should 16 IPCs completely invalidate a unit’s usefulness?

I always enjoyed the house rule of the destroyer’s ability to cancel sub’s specials being a 1-to-1 ratio. I.E. a single destroyer cannot stop a vastly larger number of subs. Are the ASW capabilities of the destroyer endless? no matter how many fleets of submarines, this one fleet of destroyers can stop all of them from getting a sneak attack? It seems bad from a gameplay and realism perspective. Instead, for every destroyer present, one sub loses it’s opening fire/submerge/submersible abilities. So if you attack a fleet with 3 subs and they only have one destroyer, two subs still get opening fire.

This makes much more sense in terms of gameplay and actually allows for utilizing a sub strategy as germany. Anybody have any reason this shouldn’t be the case?

@Silent:

The only reason is that even without surprise attacks subs for let’s say 24 ipcs (4 subs) beat 24 ipcs of destroyers (3 destroyers) on both offense and defense on average.

Subs still marginalized…by DD this time…
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=12899.msg357726#msg357726

@Admiral_Thrawn:

As others have said before probably, Destroyers counter subs on a 1 to 1 basis and allow undetected subs to choose transports as targets. This was there goal anyway.