Thank you!
Japan's super economy -the end of the world?
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@Cow:
It is extremely hard to fail a G6 or G7 all in Germany VS Russia. you need about 10 fighters from outside at least.
It is worth the risk. G6 is when I build defenses since I am attacking Russia. USA 1-5 is pretty weak and easy to defend against with just Italy.
G7 is when I am bringing the finland/norway units over and buying mech/armor for an additional round. This is done very rarely for me… like when I use germany to do middle east / africa business.
Your insight into the expert side of the game is spot on Cow!
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@Cow:
It is extremely hard to fail a G6 or G7 all in Germany VS Russia. you need about 10 fighters from outside at least.
It is worth the risk. G6 is when I build defenses since I am attacking Russia. USA 1-5 is pretty weak and easy to defend against with just Italy.
G7 is when I am bringing the finland/norway units over and buying mech/armor for an additional round. This is done very rarely for me… like when I use germany to do middle east / africa business.
Well, thank you!
I mean, I don’t find it too hard to make Germany fail this German all-in against Moscow, so I guess I can take this as a compliment ;-).Seriously, you are right about those outside FTR/TAC, but why would that be extremely hard? Especially considering the UK/France start the game with what, 11 or 12 aircraft already…
I know people rarely do it but I can tell it’s a must indeed and not at all so difficult for the UK to do. It sure requires planning ahead and a little practice. And I am not saying Germans won’t take Moscow if they persist. But the price will be too high for them if they do. They can have it with 1 land unit and 4 aircraft left. Or, if you wish, 5 land units and no aircraft left… Whatever. The UK must be aware of the German focus and needs to focus on that same spot too.US1-5 is indeed not at its peak, but from Gibraltar/London the allies can seriously attack Rome, Berlin (leapfrog trick) and/or everything in between. Apart from the escort fleet (CV + air) + air, combined allies are threatening with fully loaded 6TRS(US3), 8TRS(US4), 12TRS(US5), 16TRS(US6). Italy can never defend all crucial areas against this.
The best thing Germany can do is reinforce the west and try to postpone the assault on Moscow for a later time. But… (see my larger previous post for that option)…
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It is true You can get UK air units into Russia. From scotland or london -> africa uk 2 after no sealion detection africa -> egpyt uk3 Egypt to persia UK 4 then Russia UK 5 in time to defend.
What is that like 4 fighters? Plus India and existing middle east fighters? That is about 9. This is all assuming Japan did not murder the fighters or Italy. Then you just need 1 round of fighter buys in persia.
This is not taking into consideration the possibility of Japan bombing Russia, Italy bombing Russia, or Germany bombing Russia. Which are all possibilities. In which case Russia still has difficulties holding up depending on how the dice rolls out. Bombing can go really bad from multiple 1s or really good with actual bombings.
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If any or all of the Axis start bombing Russia, do you use those Allied fighters for interceptors?
So often I find using interceptors tends to bite me in the butt. The dang attacking bombers end up getting one or even more “1s” and my fighters get bupkiss.
However, if there are a lot of fighters sitting there, it may just scare off potential bomber attacks. -
The bombings tend to happen on rounds 3 or 4 if at all. At this point not much allies fighters are available.
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@knp7765:
Interceptors indeed often scare off potential bombers. There can be between 12 - 17 FTR in Moscow so any raiders usually think twice before coming in.
In case they come anyway, Japanese/Italian bombers I intercept if their anticipated damage would be worse than loosing a FTR (i.e. costing the Russian production 3 INF, so 10 or more damage on the IC). With both Japanese and Italians able to raid I auto-intercept one of them but with an overkill of air in Moscow you could forget about what is the best way to do it and just intercept all of them.
German air will be a bit different, since air they loose during raids will also not participate during the actual assault on Moscow. So usually it is better to intercept because Germans will loose more air to combined interception + AAA-fire. If they loose 4-5 bombers/escorts versus 1-2 allied FTR I think that’s worth it.
I wholeheartedly agree with Cow about how raiding can sting both sides beyond belief. Doing it once or twice, especially in Moscow is a gamble, doing it consistently turn after turn (like Berlin, West Germany, Northern Italy and Rome) is more of a calculation about damage dealt versus the average expected shot down bombers/escorts/interceptors.My favorite flight paths for UK FTR into Moscow are:
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London->Scotland/Norway->Nenetsia->Moscow.
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London->Algeria/French West Africa->Egypt (after attacking something in Med/Africa)->(NW)Persia->Moscow.
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SA->Egypt (possibly after attacking Italians south of Egypt)->(NW)Persia (possibly after attacking Italians in Med/Africa)->Moscow.
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Calcutta->(NW)Persia->Moscow.
The UK/France start the game with 10 FTR/TAC. They can all reach Moscow in time. UK1 builds 1 FTR which can also be there in time. UK2 can build 2 or even 3 FTR if need be, which will be there in time. UKP can build 1, 2 or even 3 FTR, depending on the Japanese pressure on its economy. Given a J1 DOW, this will be only 1 FTR but this will also give the USA 3 more fully loaded TRS in Europe (thus starting with 9@Gibraltar in US3, see my previous post).
So a total of 17 FTR/TAC maximum can fly into Moscow for help. As this is surely an overkill, I usually stick with just a 12 maximum. Less if I see Germany backing off (building troops for Western Europe instead of only the GE4&GE5 air).
Heck, even the 3 ANZAC FTR can get there in time so the total can even be as much as 20 FTR maximum…I guess the only dilemma for the allies would be what do they want to protect ‘at all costs’. Would they rather protect Calcutta or Moscow?
Personally I prefer to protect Moscow because Russia (with spread communism in Africa) can retain an income of about 18IPCs while UKP retains nothing if Japan convoys it. Moscow needs protection anyway because Germany can NOT be allowed to take it with like 30 surving units. That would seriously be game over IMHO. Therefore I defend Calcutta for as long as I can win the battle there and then retreat everything into the ME. If/when Japan marches into Persia/Iraq I have a nasty surprise for it: SAfrican/ME/Indian veterans counterattacking with the help of a LOT of air. Even Bombers stationed in Paris (should be about 5 or 6) can reach…On a sidenote,
a friend of mine defends Moscow differently. With the UK he builds 2 ICs in Iraq + Persia ans starts pouring land units into Russia. I don’t think I ever built more than 1 IC in the region (Egypt) but that’s a different story! -
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If Italy gets a foothold in africa at any point the game is over because Italy’s income can defend Europe really well while Germany focuses on the capital. Doing this gives you Africa back eventually. Capitals are just a priority.
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Agree to that.
I have seen Italy getting things going in Africa and/or ME and that is very ugly for the allies. Italy having an income of ~30+ IPCs for a prolonged time breaks the allies. If this lasts only a small number of turns however, the damage can be controlled.Preventing this from happening is another high priority for the allies.
It is a high risk gambit for Italy as well, as this means Italy needs to invest in getting more troops in Africa. Italy’s chances of failure in Africa/ME are quite high and everything the Italians send there cannot help defending Western Europe. Furthermore, Italy is going to need extra TRS and other ships as well so that’s another strike through the Italian build plans for defending Europe! -
Against a light bid of say sub 98 and anzac inf new guinea.
You have really good odds at getting egypt. Tobruk->alex. German air -> alex. Then bam you have a big attack. All you really need is egypt for a bit.
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Italy still doesn’t have enough attack power to take egypt if UK played it correctly though. Are you using German planes to hit Egypt or something? I use the German planes to help defend Alexandria as well, but it seems to me that Italy just doesn’t have enough to actually take it out on his own.
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Italy still doesn’t have enough attack power to take egypt if UK played it correctly though. Are you using German planes to hit Egypt or something? I use the German planes to help defend Alexandria as well, but it seems to me that Italy just doesn’t have enough to actually take it out on his own.
^This. Italy can go kamikaze against Egypt, loosing everything. Then quite a few UK land units + 6-7 aircraft are surviving in Egypt. Germany can attack this with its Luftwaffe but this will cost Germany dearly in aircraft (loosing 10 planes).
And be careful with too much German planes in Africa, as the UK will have a much easier time placing TRS @ Germany’s backdoor unhindered (SZ109).
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As Italy I’ve found myself being able to resist going for the throat in Egypt early. I’ve had opportunities, but I’ll lose a lot of units accomplishing it, and there’s no guarantee I’m holding it long.
In general I try to:
Bottle the UK in Cairo
Take Greece, S.France and Gib if possible
Clear the Med of Allied Ships
Send Armor to potentially can-open for Germany with my BomberOutside of that, I’m building INF and ART to repel Allied landings. I know Italy will not rule the world, and to extend too far in Africa means the Allies will probably try to cut your supply lines in the Med.
If I’m very successful with Italy, I may churn out a few SS to keep the Allies worried about a SS strike - but I’ve found its generally better to put 2 INF in S.France than to build an SS there.
The bane of my existence as Italy has always been Allied aircraft on Malta after the first round. It almost always shuts down any Italian movements into Africa - and by the time I’ve got the IPC to defend against 1 Ftr/Tac/Bomber from sinking my little fleet… I’ve realized I have very few ground units to defend against Allied landings in N.Africa or Europe.
It seems those naval purchases end up becoming wasted on Italy. Aircraft may help a bit, but realistically, continuously building ground troops seems to be my MO with Italy.
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How exactly is Italy not having enough?
2 inf 1 arty ethiopia to sudan round 1. tobruk to alex round 1.
Say you lose 1 or 2 inf to kill ethiopia. you only have 8 men left for egypt… maybe you got the malta inf and aa gun
that is 10. tobruk is 6, 1 transport left that is 8. Italy air matches your starting air in the area.
So unless you are bringing in the pacific units… Italy has a good attack.
I generally J1 dow so if you are bring pacific units over… it is a super easy J3 India.
I guess Russia can send air to India… still idk where you getting all these guys from if not a bid.
~Germany air losses would not be heavy at all. Italy just needs to do a 1 round attack retreat. Germany hits it and clears it out in a round. You can buy bombers on west germany if you are paranoid, they do help out against Russia, you only need to hold east poland to bomb the russians.
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This is why bids tend to be around the 12-14 range to get an extra inf or two in africa along with a sub in sz 98.
A light bid is really pushing it.
~No matter what Italy has 12 units attacking (4 air 2 transported 6 tobruk). 3 from ethiopia you got to send something to attack round 1 or round 2.
So I do not know how you have this super iron clad defense that always holds up when you only start with 10 ground units including anzac. It can get bumped to 12 with malta. Then your air is only 3 planes. But then you have to send something to ethiopia or sudan….
It is a pretty close fight without bids. Then germany can clean house after Italy, after that it pretty much goes to the axis.
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Like if the axis want the middle east they are going to get it. All Germany has to do is buy strait bombers round 2. Some Germany players like southern france, what they do is buy carrier transport 1 inf, armor from france comes down (their round 2 buy). rest of the buy is bombers.
Then you really cannot hold Egypt. This is more or less a G7 or G8 Russia attack. You just take command of the middle east and bomb out of the game.
This is a really good strategy in general. Because if you get pressure from the atlantic you can just bomb russia for 20 every time he buys units.
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Didn’t know we were talking without bids. Anyone crazy enough to take allies without a bid would would make for a really short game.
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@Cow:
No matter what Italy has 12 units attacking (4 air 2 transported 6 tobruk). 3 from ethiopia you got to send something to attack round 1 or round 2.
UK1:
Purchase 6 Inf, 1 Ftr - Place London.Combat:
CR SZ91 - SZ96
FTR Gib - SZ96
vs 1 DD, 1 TT
95% odds, 1.5 Units survive. 2/3 of the time the UK CR survives.CV, SS, DD, CR, 1 TAC SZ98 - SZ97
FTR Malta - SZ97
BMB London - SZ97 (Land Malta)
vs 1 BB, 1 CR potential for 2 FTR scramble, 3 if Germany sends FTR from Hungary.
Odds w/out German help: Scramble: 95%, 3.9 units survive. No scramble: 100%, 6.4 units survive
Odds with German help (scramble): 2.4 Units survive.
So worst case scenario for Italy is no scramble w/out German help. Leaves all but the SS still in SZ97. Best case scenario Germans help with a Ftr and UK ends up with either 1 Ftr/Tac or all 3 aircraft landing on Malta. (This still isn’t good).NCM:
TT SZ98 1 ART (Alex), 1 INF (Egypt) - SZ80 - Persia. UK has 3 INF, 1 Art on Persia
DD, CR SZ39 - SZ80
DD SZ71 - SZ80
ARM Alex - Sudan
ART, MECH Egypt - Sudan
INF Alex - Egypt
INF W.India - E.Persia (UK2 is picked up by TT from SZ80, enables CR bombard on Iraq)
2 INF S.Africa - RhodesiaSo now you have Cairo with 4 Inf on it. Two are UK, two are ANZAC.
Persia has been activated and can still return to Cairo with those units depending on what Italy does.
Sudan is a hard nut for Italy to crack with just 2 Inf and 1 Art. Italy can send her bomber there if she’s determined to try to get next to Cairo, but thats a 50-50 battle there. Maybe Italy triumphs with 1 Art remaining? That bomber has to land in Ethopia and get defended by the INF from Somalia. Btw that can still get hit by that TT sitting in SZ80 with 1 Inf, 1 Art. Personally, those units are trapped or have to march south to gain 1 IPC for a round or two.
Italy has a single TT at this point, meaning at best you’re seeing 1 Inf, 1 Arm show up on Alex on I1. And that is entirely dependent if the UK has ships remaining in SZ97 and SZ96. Benefit of the doubt you CAN get the units there.
So I1 comes and you stack up Alex with Tobruk units and reinforce with 1 INF, 1 ARM.
So Alex has 4 INF, 1 ART, 1 MECH 2 ARM staring down 4 INF. Odds are in Italy’s favor, until you factor in a Ftr and Tac flying in from Malta, and Persia ferrying in 2 Inf and the UK units in Sudan stepping back to Cairo.All told Cairo holds after UK2:
7 INF, 1 ART, 1 MECH, 1 ARM, 1 TAC, 1 FTR
vs 4 INF, 1 ART, 1 MECH, 2 ARM, 1 Bomber
2% odds for Italy to win that battle on I2.
On I3, perhaps you bought a Ftr on I1, which landed on Alex on I2. You also are now adding 1 Inf, 1 Art that started in Libya.
45% odds to win.And what does Italy have to show for all this? Egypt with a couple units left on it, and units coming in from South Africa, and a second ferry of units from Persia.
At best, you’ve played to a draw. Good for Germany, but this is round 3. Germany needs Cairo 3-4 rounds after this.
Point I’m making is there is no way you’re brining 10 Inf to Cairo by I3. Possibly I4 if UK turtles, at which time the UK has been buying a TT, Inf and Art every round, placing it in South Africa and shuttled three sets by the time you strike, plus the Persian units.
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Didn’t know we were talking without bids. Anyone crazy enough to take allies without a bid would would make for a really short game.
Don’t know. I wasn’t talking about bids. With bids you never know what a player will place where, so I prefer to talk bids excluded… But that’s just a personal preference.
+1 to what Spendo02 said. Very Good breakdown. I learned a thing or two from that ;-). Thanks! In addition to that:
(So without bids) 18 units total can reach Egypt with the air from Calcutta, 15 units without them. Malta ground units stay where they are, TRS will pick up 2INF from Persia. Any losses the UK sustains during UK1 (Taranto or whatever) may not be aircraft, have to be ships. With these numbers, UK will win with 11 units surviving. French move in, 12 units versus max 12 German air. And Italy has just lost everything to achieve this…If need be, UK can build an IC in Egypt UK2 as well. UK can reinforce Egypt with another 5 FTR from London UK3 and 2 FTR from SA. Egypt will then produce 3INF on top of that. Africa = One of the main reasons why UK should never scramble UK1 unless it can hurt Germany really badly (i.e. German attacks on SZ110&111 are underpowered).
Also a viable alternative, UK can pull out, attacking everything into Sudan UK2. From there (and SA) it will then have 18 attackers UK2, 23 UK3 and 25+ attackers UK4. German air can’t be there forever or Germany will be whacked in Russia. Everything Italy takes in the region will be very short term if Uk gives up Egypt like this. This is the kind of short term Italian Presence in Africa that the allies can handle. Meanwhile, the allies are building up in Gibraltar and will have a combined ~30 land units and ~8 aircraft ready to strike every coastal area including Rome and Berlin US4. Less 2 air and 4 land units US3. Given, not everywhere with the same power but still. Way beyond Italian power to defend that. Especially since they sent the few units they bought (FTR) into Africa.
On a sidenote:
Yes, I’d weaken Calcutta in favor of Africa if need be. UKP is dead anyway (the VC, not the army mind you) and loosing it is therefore by far not as critical as allowing Italy a free walk into Africa/ME. Still, with or without the Indian RAF, a J3 on Clacutta requires a very specific Japanese ‘all in’ that I do not particularly fear as allies as long as the UKP keeps its army around. Like I said, Calcutta is dead meat anyway and everything the allies do to prevent the fall of this VC will only help Japan (unless the USA is gearing up for that KJF strategy)… -
Ethiopia’s attack on Sudan, should score a hit.
I2 attack is fine. Nothing wrong with it, attack for one round. Then Germany attacks and has more than enough hits to clear it out in one round of combat.
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Also leaving egypt with only 4 units is really risky for you. If your cruiser is not alive on malta (dd hit on a 2) then 1 inf 1 armor 1 bomber can attack egypt.
That is 35% on egypt.
Some people take those odds, because the risk is pretty minimal, risk a transport that is going to die someday 1 inf 1 armor, the bomber can retreat, it could die that is possible.
Even the sudan battle can be worth one round of risky business.
~You cannot tell me you always hold Africa/middle east.
Plus Germany can bring around 17 air units to attack egypt. All Italy has to do is cut it down to about 8 units, retreat, and let germany got to town.
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Point is moot because most people G6 russia, sure you bring 10 or 12 fighters in to russia and Germany smokes that.
Round 1-3 all mech/armor round 4-5 mech/armor on novgorod rest air units. round 6 Germany attack, Russia dead. Italy starts with enough units to guard europe, plus germany can take back everything lost after Russia is dead.
You are not getting Germany or Italy. Everything else is a possibility. I have seen USA reclaim France when I did this and I lost west germany for a round. With 80+ ipcs I bought a major factory for greater southern germany infantry and armor on germany, next round 20 units. I won in the Pacific at this point, because after calcutta there is only one thing left for Japan to do, which is to just win.
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Just follow my playbook and you will rarely lose games.
Shoot, I even buy naval round 1, sub dd, carrier, because I am always like this game is the game I sea lion. Then I change my mind.
I still smoke Russia. Imagine if I just bought 1 sub all mech/armor. OMG I could deal with 20 allied fighters coming to Russia and G6 that.
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