Not sure if I missed it somewhere in here, but you are still discussing anti-aircraft artillery that can be taken as a fodder, correct? For my part, I’m just going to come out and say it, I think AA guns are the single most annoying unit in A&A! Always there when you need them, to be forgotten on Non-Combat, to screw a Russian NO, or more recently to die instantly as fodder :-D
I wish they were more interesting, but if I had to vote up or down, I’d say ditch the unit altogether and save the plastic for more infantry. The AA gun’s abilities could easily be collapsed into any territory with a Factory or Victory City, and the game would probably play out more or less the same way it does now, just with less confusion. You wouldn’t have to worry about moving them around (with their weird non-com restrictions, the only ground unit that behaves this way), or worry about where to put the as blitz “blockers.” They would be harder to abuse when technology transforms them into Rockets, or Radar towers. That last tech point is worth dwelling on, since in most games the main interest in AAguns was their tech advances. That doesn’t do much to recommend the unit in my mind. I think it would be easier to just attach normal combat AAgun abilities to critical territories directly, either as part of the factory unit or as an aspect of the VC.
Likewise, if Rocket or Radar is researched, those abilities could be attached to the Factory unit or VC directly.
If the unit is going to be sculpted and take up space in the bag, then it should at least have a normal combat role beyond fodder, non com blocker, or opening shot. A gun that could fire in each round of the combat phase would make more sense from a purchasing value perspective.
Just keep it simple and have them defend at 1 instead of 0 and allow them to move during the combat move phase. Keep everything else the same.
Just keep it simple and have them defend at 1 instead of 0 and allow them to move during the combat move phase. Keep everything else the same.
I really agree, these two points makes this unit simpler. And allows to erase some strange rules on AAA.
But it is not a sufficient incentive to buy more of them.
At 4 IPCs, probably becomes more interesting for Germany and Russia.
Because the basics choice is between AAA or Inf. And many times buying an AAA at 5 IPCs reveals to be of no interest because only grounds units invade a territory.
So, even if it seems statistically balance at 5 IPCs, the maths never consider this situation which happen often.
That’s why at 4 IPCs it can increase the interest for this unit even if it defends at half rate of an INF (D1 vs D2).
@Uncrustable:
Omw
I’m sure glad you 2 are not the game developers lolI imagine the mech inf represents a mechanized division
Distinct from an infantry or armored division
I believe USA calls it an armored Calvalry division howeverA division is a large military unit (10000-30000 soldiers) capable of independent operations due to it’s self sustaining role and it’s range of combat personal and suitable combat support forces
Infantry division
Mechanized division (armored Calvalry)
Armored division
Artillery division
**Anti aircraft divisionCapable of independent operations
Due to…combat support forces**
An anti aircraft division does not need to be towed around by a mechanized division lol
It’s perfectly capable of moving itself
Here is an AAA units at the opposite of the Spectrum (there is some posts in this thread about AAA topics):
@Uncrustable:
2. Enhanced AAA. AAA now acts as a normal unit outside of AA rolls. They no longer are restricted to non combat moves and attack/defend at 1/1. No changes to AA rolls. AA rolls are defense only (# of dice rolled does not change from OOB) AAA price remains OOB.
I feel so special =]
Personally I feel classic style AA guns to make more sense from a realism standpoint. While being simpler and more poweful.
An AA Gun represents a territory wide network of radar and guns. Thus it cannot move during combat.
Global 1939 uses this version I believe.
It also reduces clutter on the game board that the new AAA sculpts caused.
I would argue make it an immovable facility with the same rules as bases. It can be SBR’d and is destroyed instead of damaged. Got this from 1939 too
@Baron:
Just keep it simple and have them defend at 1 instead of 0 and allow them to move during the combat move phase. Keep everything else the same.
I really agree, these two points makes this unit simpler. And allows to erase some strange rules on AAA.
But it is not a sufficient incentive to buy more of them.
At 4 IPCs, probably becomes more interesting for Germany and Russia.Because the basics choice is between AAA or Inf. And many times buying an AAA at 5 IPCs reveals to be of no interest because only grounds units invade a territory. So, even if it seems statistically balance at 5 IPCs, the maths never consider this situation which happen often.
That’s why at 4 IPCs it can increase the interest for this unit even if it defends at half rate of an INF (D1 vs D2).
I finally found a much better way to use AAA in each combat round instead of only the opening combat round.
This simplify the rules about how to handle them.This give much more uniformity compared to other units.
ANTI-AIRCRAFT ARTILLERY A0 D0 NCM1 Cost 3, 1 hit,
Up to 2 preemptive defense @1 against up to 2 planes, whichever the lesser, (as OOB AAA but slightly weaker) and
Fire up to 2 regular defense @1 against up to 2 planes on the following combat rounds.
Stop any blitz, but cannot defend itself against enemy’s ground units.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=35643.msg1393799#msg1393799
And this defensive unit can compete in a balanced way with my special Fighter unit:
FIGHTER A2 D2-3 M4, same in SBR Cost 6
Air combat unit, Fighter as an Air Superiority aircraft: All hits are allocated to aircraft units first, if any available, then AAA, and finally other kind of units.
Fighter as part of an extended Air Defense System:
1 Fighter units receive +1 Defense if protecting a territory with an operational Air Base, (for 1942.2, 2 Fgs can scramble from a Victory City instead.)
SBR/TcBR Attack @2, Defend @2, or even Defend @3 for 1 Fg if an operational Air Base is present.
Can scramble in adjacent SZ up to 4 Fgs: 3 defend @2 and 1 defend @3, getting the +1 Defense bonus from an operational Air Base.
Can hit submarines without Anti-Sub Vessel.
So, two 3 IPCs AAA have no offensive value or no great mobility but at least provides a matching defensive capabilities similar to two special Fighters:
Up to 4 roll @1 against up to four planes vs 2 roll @2.
Or 2 AAAs (6 IPCs) have a similar combat point value: up to 4 points compared to 1 single Fg (A2 D2 C6) = 4 points too.
Also, one 3 IPCs AAA can be a defensive match with a single Infantry which roll each combat round:
Up to 2 roll @1 against up to two planes vs 1 roll @2.
I don’t know if I should forfeit the preemptive strike (from original OOB rule for AAA) to make it a regular roll like any other unit. That way the AAA combat rule would be:
ANTI-AIRCRAFT ARTILLERY A0 D0 NCM1 Cost 3, 1 hit,
Fire up to 2 regular defense @1 against up to 2 planes each combat round.
Stop any blitz, but cannot defend itself against enemy’s ground units.
Do you believe that preemptive strike is a necessary ingredient for a defensive unit such as AAA?
Honestly the thing that annoys me more than anything else about the AAAGUN is the movement restriction to Non Combat. It makes the unit very difficult to maneuver effectively on the map, and especially across the water. If making an HR adjustment I’d prefer if it worked like every other unit, ie able to move during the combat phase.
The thing that annoys me more than anything else about AAA guns is that they are only better than infantry when defending against an enormous stack of planes. If you spend 15 IPCs on 5 infantry, you get 5 HP and 10 defensive pips that roll in every round of combat. If you spend 15 IPCs on 3 AAA guns, you get 3 HP and 9 defensive pips that roll in only the first round of combat, but that have the potential to eliminate enemy planes before those planes can score hits against you. So the question is, how many hits would they have to score against you to even up that gap? At least 2 hits (since you can use your extra 2 infantry as ‘fodder’ and still come out ahead), and probably 3 hits unless your opponent is strafing (because the infantry’s ability to keep on rolling dice will let them pull ahead in ‘total’ defensive value as the battle goes on even if the advantage is to the AAA gun on the first round of combat).
So the break-even point for AAA guns is somewhere around an attack by 6 ftr OR 2 ftr, 3 bmbr. No matter how many AAA guns you pile into a territory, your opponent can still profitably attack you with ground forces supported by 3-4 planes. That’s really stupid.
If you have really dense flak coverage, a territory should become a death trap for planes, and even if you only have one AAA gun in a territory, it should be able to trade itself very profitably against attacking planes.
Mechanically, to make that happen, I would say get rid of the pre-emptive strike ability – it’s unnecessarily fussy and it’s too hard to predict. Instead, just give each AAA gun a single combat die that hits on rolls of 4 or less, but the die can only be applied to hit (and must be applied to hit) attacking enemy planes. That way the AAA gun packs a noticeably stronger defensive punch than infantry for the price (5 IPCs), but is weaker on HP and is useless for anything other than deterring aerial attacks.
Conveniently, this new AAA unit would cripple the ‘light trading’ tactic that currently serves as the lynch pin of orthodox strategy on the 1942.2 map. Planes really, really don’t want to trade lightly against territories with AAA guns.
Note that even though this makes AAA guns much stronger than they are now, they can still be overwhelmed with a large enough air force. Suppose Germany is attacking with 1 inf, 1 art, 5 ftr and Russia is defending with 3 inf, 1 AAA. Germany rolls an expected 3.1 hits, versus Russia’s expected 1.8 hits. Germany loses 1 inf and 1 ftr (-13 IPC). Russia will have to lose 2 inf, 1 AAA (-11 IPC) because if it loses 3 infantry then Germany could retreat the planes and mop up with the artillery unit, which can’t be hit by AAA guns because it’s not a plane. In the next round of combat, Germany attacks with 1 art, 4 ftr for a virtually guaranteed hit, and Russia attacks with 1 inf for 0.3 hits. Germany loses another one-third of a fighter (-3 IPC) and Russia loses another infantry (-3 IPC). Germany seizes the territory (+2 IPC), and so the TUV exchange for the battle is even (14 net IPCs lost for each side).
This is a very different way of seeing AAA unit which can increase its usefulness and add a few interesting defensive tactics.
@Baron:
Good thoughts Barney, thanks for sharing. Never played NWO (actually just looked it up now). I considered something similar in my initial brainstorming but I really want to involve the tactical element: thinking of Fortifications like bases for ground units, rather than ground units themselves.
One old idea to make AAA unit more interesting was this little tweak, which can represents fortified hardpoints, is to make it a 2 hits unit:
Anti-Aircraft Artillery
Attack 0
Defense 0, 1 @1 preemptive, up to three planes, 1 per plane max.
NCM 1
Hits 2, auto-repaired after combat
Cost 5
In addition, if no combat unit is with it, then it is auto-destroy, per OOB rule.For 15 IPCs, you get 3 regular hits, 3 buffer hits, and up to 9 preemptive strike @1 on aircraft.
With Infantry, it is 5 hits and 10 defense points, but you loose 3 units on first casualties.An additional ability to figure Atlantic Wall and Siegfried Line can be that when attacked, you may roll 1 defense @1 of preemptive fire on ground unit attacking per AAA unit.
Another possibility can be this:
Anti-Aircraft Artillery as Fortifications
Attack 0
Defense 1, up to three preemptive roll @1, against up to three units, ground or plane, 1 per attacking unit max.
NCM 1
Hits 2, auto-repaired after combat
Cost 5
The one time preemptive roll can simulate the fact that once fortifications are overwhelmed, they can no more use their defensive weapons.
The only tweak that is necessary to make them viable is to have them fire at planes as they fly over those territories as well. That way the Axis need guns to cover more squares, and flying entirely across Axis territory becomes much more dangerous.
Even USSR could partially exploit this, so that the germans would have to fly in and out of their SB targets, being exposed to fire x2 x3 more often than under current rules. Also, the placement of the AAA would be critical to dissuade your enemy so it adds some strategizing to the NCM phase.
That would seem a lot more realistic too, taamvan.
“Oh they’re not attacking us, let’s just let them fly over so they can bomb someone else.”
That would seem a lot more realistic too, taamvan.
“Oh they’re not attacking us, let’s just let them fly over so they can bomb someone else.”
As far as a read here and there on this subject, a 16,67% casualty is already higher than what it was for real. Doubling or tripling this rate is OP.
Historically speaking, I always thought it was only near their objectives that planes were diving at a much lower altitude (to be more accurate) and were within range of AAA fire. Is it false?
I remember reading that from England to Germany bombers had to cross a coastal AA belt in France. I don’t think it was nearly as effective as the AA at the target though.
Didn’t one of the earlier versions have this ? It was killing way to many planes so it was changed is what I remember anyway.
You can set the AA to fire at everything in triplea. Most people don’t play that way is my understanding.
When Black Elk was doing global redesign, I started using A0 D1 M1 C5 aaguns. Can move during combat. It seemed all right but am going to try A0 D0 M1 C4 can only move during non combat.
I like to use a lot of aaguns. Having one with small stacks of blockers makes taking them out with air and infantry much riskier and unpredictable. Think it also reflects the fact that a lot of units had AA attached to them. oztea’s 41 starts out with a lot of aaguns so they can accompany multiple army groups.There high price discourages buying more though.
It’s a minor change in price only in how they operate so should be an easy transition.
I remember reading that from England to Germany bombers had to cross a coastal AA belt in France. I don’t think it was nearly as effective as the AA at the target though.
Didn’t one of the earlier versions have this ? It was killing way to many planes so it was changed is what I remember anyway.
You can set the AA to fire at everything in triplea. Most people don’t play that way is my understanding.
When Black Elk was doing global redesign, I started using A0 D1 M1 C5 aaguns. Can move during combat. It seemed all right but am going to try A0 D0 M1 C4 can only move during non combat.
I like to use a lot of aaguns. Having one with small stacks of blockers makes taking them out with air and infantry much riskier and unpredictable. Think it also reflects the fact that a lot of units had AA attached to them. oztea’s 41 starts out with a lot of aaguns so they can accompany multiple army groups.There high price discourages buying more though.
It’s a minor change in price only in how they operate so should be an easy transition.
Your post make me think about this question: what can be a useful blocker unit and how an AAA can be adapted to this defensive stance?
It needs to be cheap, as it is used as a cannon fodder.
Also, able to move in CM is simpler and helpful to reinforce a winning amphibious assault but not absolutly necessary (see Black Elk post below).
Being preemptive and able to hit costlier unit is great.
At least the same hit and somewhat similar defense factor than Infantry.
Honestly the thing that annoys me more than anything else about the AAAGUN is the movement restriction to Non Combat. It makes the unit very difficult to maneuver on the map, and especially across the water. If making an HR adjustment I’d prefer if it worked like every other unit, ie able to move during the combat phase.
So, here is a try:
AAA as a blocker unit, (and reinforced defensive line):
Attack 0
Defense 1* on first combat round only.
*@1 first strike against up to 2 units, 1 roll max per unit, plane first, then any other ground unit.
Move 1 in CM or NCM
Hit 1
Cost 3
No move issue, in itself its defense is weaker than Inf, but if two or more units are attacking it gives similar odds to hit.
First strike makes for bunkers, hidden tunnels, trenches, mines, concrete and all other kind of defensive features, which gives more opportunity to kill before being killed.
Also, IMO this one time preemptive roll can simulate the fact that once fortifications are overwhelmed, they can no more use their defensive weapons.
Against 1 unit, it is weaker than Inf but blockers are usually attacked by more than 1 single unit.
What do you think?
Stronger than OOB AAA, no better than Inf and a specific role to play.
It is not as useful on offense, if you bring it in, because you lack a 1 or 2 attack factor, but to delay or make a costlier TTy exchange it gets a better use than OOB AAA.
IDK Baron. A 1 in 6 chance to whack a plane for 3 bucks seems kinda cheap. Especially being able to kill something else as well.
IDK Baron. A 1 in 6 chance to whack a plane for 3 bucks seems kinda cheap. Especially being able to kill something else as well.
Yes, but only up to two, not three planes.
15 IPCs can get 3 OOB AAA for 9 planes, 9 / 5 = 1.8 planes for a 3 IPCs AAA.
5 special AAA 3 IPCs, can get 10 planes.
Since OOB AAA gets 1 combat round of fire, it should stay the same for this unit too.
I edit my post, every round cannot work for OOB rules.
Since it is a blocker unit, 1 combat round defense is enough.
So, using AAA as blocker is a bet.
1 plane and 1 ground unit can pass it easily, if noone hit first time.
But, if AAA hit ground unit (or both), TTy cannot be conquered.
Of course, 1 Inf and 1 AAA makes a better job as blocker, because you sacrifice AAA on first hit.
Only in HRs with dogfight and continuous air vs air that such AAA can act as regular unit and be able to roll each combat round. So, you can put a single AAA in TTy and it remains until attacker got a hit.
limiting AA to one rd of fire is interesting. A lot of times though, only one plane will come in to attack a blocker so the 3 dollar AA will get the same # of shots as a 5.
That’s why it seems a little OP’d, even though your numbers match up.
limiting AA to one rd of fire is interesting. A lot of times though, only one plane will come in to attack a blocker so the 3 dollar AA will get the same # of shots as a 5.
That’s why it seems a little OP’d, even though your numbers match up.
I agree that vs plane it can be one on one, and you can take a shot at one ground unit too.
I intended to make it a bit stronger and less specialized than OOB, so you get an incentive to buy them.
On big clashes like Battle of Moscow, it will not be very different than OOB instead of 2 or 3 OOB AAAs, you will need 3 to 5 of them, to get your shots at Axis planes.
The real change is that it can be standing alone in a TTy, so you loose only 3 IPCs and still have a shot at airplanes.
OOB, you need to loose 8 IPCs as blocker, to make TTy trading a bit less attractive for planes.
Just a way to make AAA somehow a better defensive unit than Infantry, at least for opening combat round.
@Baron:
AAA as a blocker unit, (and reinforced defensive line):
Attack 0
Defense 1* on first combat round only.
*@1 first strike against up to 2 units, 1 roll max per unit, plane first, then any other ground unit.
Move 1 in CM or NCM
Hit 1
Cost 3No move issue, in itself its defense is weaker than Inf, but if two or more units are attacking it gives similar odds to hit.
First strike makes for bunkers, hidden tunnels, trenches, mines, concrete and all other kind of defensive features, which gives more opportunity to kill before being killed.
Also, IMO this one time preemptive roll can simulate the fact that once fortifications are overwhelmed, they can no more use their defensive weapons.
Against 1 unit, it is weaker than Inf but blockers are usually attacked by more than 1 single unit.
What do you think?
Stronger than OOB AAA, no better than Inf and a specific role to play.
It is not as useful on offense, if you bring it in, because you lack a 1 or 2 attack factor, but to delay or make a costlier TTy exchange it gets a better use than OOB AAA.
This last AAA unit above is also a different answer to issues Argothair pointed out (bolded):
@Argothair:
**The thing that annoys me more than anything else about AAA guns is that they are only better than infantry when defending against an enormous stack of planes. If you spend 15 IPCs on 5 infantry, you get 5 HP and 10 defensive pips that roll in every round of combat. If you spend 15 IPCs on 3 AAA guns, you get 3 HP and 9 defensive pips that roll in only the first round of combat, but that have the potential to eliminate enemy planes before those planes can score hits against you. So the question is, how many hits would they have to score against you to even up that gap? At least 2 hits (since you can use your extra 2 infantry as ‘fodder’ and still come out ahead), and probably 3 hits unless your opponent is strafing (because the infantry’s ability to keep on rolling dice will let them pull ahead in ‘total’ defensive value as the battle goes on even if the advantage is to the AAA gun on the first round of combat).
So the break-even point for AAA guns is somewhere around an attack by 6 ftr OR 2 ftr, 3 bmbr. No matter how many AAA guns you pile into a territory, your opponent can still profitably attack you with ground forces supported by 3-4 planes. That’s really stupid.
If you have really dense flak coverage, a territory should become a death trap for planes, and even if you only have one AAA gun in a territory, it should be able to trade itself very profitably against attacking planes.**
Mechanically, to make that happen, I would say get rid of the pre-emptive strike ability – it’s unnecessarily fussy and it’s too hard to predict. Instead, just give each AAA gun a single combat die that hits on rolls of 4 or less, but the die can only be applied to hit (and must be applied to hit) attacking enemy planes. That way the AAA gun packs a noticeably stronger defensive punch than infantry for the price (5 IPCs), but is weaker on HP and is useless for anything other than deterring aerial attacks.
Conveniently, this new AAA unit would cripple the ‘light trading’ tactic that currently serves as the lynch pin of orthodox strategy on the 1942.2 map. Planes really, really don’t want to trade lightly against territories with AAA guns.
Note that even though this makes AAA guns much stronger than they are now, they can still be overwhelmed with a large enough air force. Suppose Germany is attacking with 1 inf, 1 art, 5 ftr and Russia is defending with 3 inf, 1 AAA. Germany rolls an expected 3.1 hits, versus Russia’s expected 1.8 hits. Germany loses 1 inf and 1 ftr (-13 IPC). Russia will have to lose 2 inf, 1 AAA (-11 IPC) because if it loses 3 infantry then Germany could retreat the planes and mop up with the artillery unit, which can’t be hit by AAA guns because it’s not a plane. In the next round of combat, Germany attacks with 1 art, 4 ftr for a virtually guaranteed hit, and Russia attacks with 1 inf for 0.3 hits. Germany loses another one-third of a fighter (-3 IPC) and Russia loses another infantry (-3 IPC). Germany seizes the territory (+2 IPC), and so the TUV exchange for the battle is even (14 net IPCs lost for each side).
yea big stacks wouldn’t be much different against planes. You’d get a few bonus hits on the 2nd shot as well. sounds as if it’d be worth a playtest for sure. The current oob definitely discourages buying them.
Another thing I dislike is when they have an uncommon number of hits. Losing 4 out of 6 planes can really mess up an attack. I use lowluck for AA only sometimes, but I don’t like how if you send 6 planes at 2 guns you automatically kill one. I guess you should only send 5 in that case. But if you want to send 7 or 8 it’s still an auto kill.
I was thinking maybe have 5 as the highest hit number instead of an automatic kill. Also thought about max kill of one plane per gun. You’d still get your 3 rolls, but only a guns first hit would count.
Maybe go with 2AA rolls, max of 1 hit per gun, A0 D1 M1, no restriction, C3. I like the two hit idea you proposed Baron for prep fire on bunkers etc., but I’m not sure if I could make it work on triplea.
Two planes with two guns present and you get two hits you could give one hit to each gun.
I cannot help for triple A.
I can just advise to see how xml works on Battleship 2 hits for 1942.2.
It is the same game mechanics.
@MGregersen
As I was looking into an AAA acting like regular unit as most as possible, except for targeting aircraft, I found this interesting post in my Quora account:
It was one of these:
That’s a 20mm autocannon on its trailer. You could either take the gun off and sit it on the ground or the back of a truck:
…or you could just keep it on the trailer and manhandle it. Obviously it was towed by a vehicle most of the time though. It’s called a Flak 30 or Flak 38 2cm gun.
It’s an automatic weapon firing about 5 high explosive 20mm rounds at you per second. 20-round box magazine. It can easily reach out and tag you from several hundred metres away. So yes, if someone points it at you you’re going to experience at best a very emotional moment in your life, at worst you’re going to get disassembled.
Technically you’re supposed to shoot down aeroplanes with it, and it does an ok job of that, but the Germans loved it to bits for infantry support too. They were the most-produced German gun of the war, reliable, punchy, manoeuvrable and available.
