War with the True Neutrals.

I don’t know how much of a “surprise” a G3 Neutral Crush would be for a couple of reasons:
1. The entire army that captured France is now sitting in Normandy/S. France. You could pull remaining mech/tank to N. Italy, but if they were actually heading toward Russia, wouldn’t they have gone to Yugoslavia?
2. An abnormally large German force is heading toward Greece. If Germany is the one to take Greece, in my experience it’s with some Bulgarian inf+air.

That’s why I think that the G2 hit of Spain/Sweden would be better for the reasons Razor mentioned: You get Spain & Sweden income a round earlier (and get one more round to defend Spain against America), you can take Gibraltar a round earlier (by an Italian tank if undefended) your air can be used to hit both Sp./Sw. and Turkey, and the ground in Sweden can be ready to attack Karelia R4.

I also think that this might be more viable in Europe only, as Japan doesn’t have to sacrifice itself to keep the US out of war as long as possible, and Russia doesn’t get its eastern income until it’s at war. (which is also being delayed until the latest possible)

I truly like the idea and hope for the best,
but I fear the Russian threat will to be too much for GE and IT with this strategy. I do not know for sure and will try it out someday! Why I think so:

US3/4: 8inf+3art+4mech+1arm -> Take Gibraltar.
UK3/4: 2inf+arm+art+6ftr -> Reinforce Gibraltar.

The above are reasonable numbers of allied troops in the atlantic at that time in the game. Reasonable as in nothing special. Could be better, could be worse. USA doesnt have to bleed the pacific dry or something like that.

I understand that GE wants to protect Gibraltar/Spain in this strategy. For this, GE needs 10mech+6arm+5ftr+5tac+2str as a counter strikeforce in SFrance. A smaller force will also be victorious but that will be a pyrrhic victory (GE loosing half its luftwaffe) and will thus end axis hope for victory.

Now, calculating the IPC-worth of axis units that is not active in/against Russia (compared to a standard Barbarossa) because of this strategy, I get to 257IPCs that Russia does NOT have to deal with:
-Building 8mech and keeping them in France (GE will loose 2 in Spain);
-Keeping the 4 original mech in France;
-Keeping 6arm in France;
-Keeping the Luftwaffe from defensive duty in/against Russia (based in either Paris or W. Germany);
-More subs + TRS built;
-2ICs built;
-Extra axis units lost in the attack on Turkey/Sweden…
-If UK scrambles SZ111 you are likely to unnecessarily loose 2 planes there (consider sending no planes into France).

I’ll not look into Turkey. The UK is on its flanks but it is so close to Russia that I take all axis units there as ‘offending Russia’ :wink:.

So, a total of at least 257IPCs-worth of units compared to a standard Barbarossa is not active against the Red Army. I know from (Sea Lion) experience that 215IPCs worth of units NOT active in Russia is a disaster for Germany. And now I look at 257!

Surely the red army must spread out more but so does the Wehrmacht. Really curious about how this will go when I try it!

@ItIsILeClerc:

I truly like the idea and hope for the best,
but I fear the Russian threat will to be too much for GE and IT with this strategy. I do not know for sure and will try it out someday! Why I think so:

US3/4: 8inf+3art+4mech+1arm -> Take Gibraltar.
UK3/4: 2inf+arm+art+6ftr -> Reinforce Gibraltar.

The above are reasonable numbers of allied troops in the atlantic at that time in the game. Reasonable as in nothing special. Could be better, could be worse. USA doesnt have to bleed the pacific dry or something like that.

I understand that GE wants to protect Gibraltar/Spain in this strategy. For this, GE needs 10mech+6arm+5ftr+5tac+2str as a counter strikeforce in SFrance. A smaller force will also be victorious but that will be a pyrrhic victory (GE loosing half its luftwaffe) and will thus end axis hope for victory.

Now, calculating the IPC-worth of axis units that is not active in/against Russia (compared to a standard Barbarossa) because of this strategy, I get to 257IPCs that Russia does NOT have to deal with:
-Building 8mech and keeping them in France (GE will loose 2 in Spain);
-Keeping the 4 original mech in France;
-Keeping 6arm in France;
-Keeping the Luftwaffe from defensive duty in/against Russia (based in either Paris or W. Germany);
-More subs + TRS built;
-2ICs built;
-Extra axis units lost in the attack on Turkey/Sweden…
-If UK scrambles SZ111 you are likely to unnecessarily loose 2 planes there (consider sending no planes into France).

I’ll not look into Turkey. The UK is on its flanks but it is so close to Russia that I take all axis units there as ‘offending Russia’ :wink:.

So, a total of at least 257IPCs-worth of units compared to a standard Barbarossa is not active against the Red Army. I know from (Sea Lion) experience that 215IPCs worth of units NOT active in Russia is a disaster for Germany. And now I look at 257!

Surely the red army must spread out more but so does the Wehrmacht. Really curious about how this will go when I try it!

Don’t mean to piggy back someone else’s logic without taking the time to write my own opinions, but I 100% agree with all of the above comments.

I am assuming that while you guys are discussing the strategy of attacking strict neutrals, that you all use the OOB neutral rules – if you attack one strict neutral they all turn against you.
When we tried the Germany Turn 3 “Neutral Crush”, we were also using the OOB neutral rules.
Since then we started using Neutral Blocks, basically dividing the strict neutral territories into geographical blocks:
South America : all South American countries
Africa : all neutrals in Africa. (Yes, I know some of them were European colonies but it was easier for gameplay to do it geographically)
Europe : Portugal, Spain, Switzerland and Sweeden.
Middle-East : Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan.
Mongolia : all Mongolian territories.

We put Turkey in the Middle East block to make that block a little bigger and worth more. We did this to give all players a little more flexibility in case anyone wanted to take a neutral territory as part of their strategy without turning ALL of them to the other side. Also, there was the practical argument: If Sweeden was invaded, why would Chile or Mongolia care? However, Switzerland or Spain might just take notice of that.
Funny thing is, even with adopting this HR into our games, we haven’t touched the strict neutrals in many games.
Anyway, it seems to me like this would make a “neutral crush” even easier. Say Germany takes Sweeden, Spain and Turkey. That would just leave Portugal and Switzerland in Europe. The US or UK might grab Portugal for 1 IPC and a couple of guys, but Germany could smash that quick and Switzerland will only fall to the Allies if things go really bad for the Axis.
As for the Middle-East block, I guess UK would pick up an extra 4 guys in Afghanistan and 2 guys + 2 IPCs for Saudi Arabia, but that wouldn’t be a big problem for the Axis. The worst being those 4 guys from Afghanistan could end up helping defend either Calcutta or Moscow.
One thing you wouldn’t be doing is giving 8 extra infantry and 6 more IPCs to the US from South America. Although, it might be as much of a hindrance as a help since they have to send transports down to get those guys and it would take a while to get them up into Europe.
So, what do you guys think? Is using my Neutral Blocks HR a good idea with this Axis strategy? Or does it tip the favor too far to the Axis?

One other thing. I think this has been brought up before. Anybody consider making Argentina Pro-Axis?

@knp:
I think your HR will make angry bird easier for the axis.
To a gamebreaking level? Maybe yes, maybe no, I don’t know. The way I see it, grabbing Turkey is the strongest point of this strategy because it gives quick access to all the axis oil-oriented NO’s and to the shortcut into Calcutta. Or Africa. The HR takes away I think the main downsides for the axis to attack Turkey: extra troops + income for the allies coming from Spain and African neutrals, plus the cancellation of the Swedish NO for Germany (and extra income for the allies later on when Sweden is taken).

@Cyanight:
You are welcome. I love this way of ‘exploring strategies’ with like-minded people  :-). Give and recieve feedback. Yummy!
While we’re at it, maybe it would be a boost to your strategy if you accept that Spain/Gibraltar  cannot be held.
You could attack spain just to deny the US those extra troops and then get the hell out of there, returning the ARM/MECH/AIR to the ‘eastfront’, reverting to the standard western defense.

Really like the idea of taking the time to take on Russia/China with Japan. Done that myself couple of times. Only downside of delaying the US till round 4, is India + ANZAC DOW Japan round3 gaining massive economies. Those two will become very angry birds themselves. Let alone the US who can perfectly see on beforehand what is going on (moving after Japan) and focus a ‘bit’ more on Germany. Caveat emptor! Every advantage has a disadvantage in this game  :wink:.

@cyanight:

Its too bad that Bulgaria doesn’t touch Turkey like Razor said it did.� Â

It is my atlas that says Bulgaria is adjacent to Turkey. Just look at google maps, I bet they are still adjacent, even today. I figure the designer made the A&A map with Greece between Bulgaria and Turkey just to add one more space between Germany and the Middle East oil, even if it is historically wrong. I wish he had split Turkey in two territories instead, that would have been more smooth. But with that said, I still love A&A.

I also think the true neutral mechanic, where all other true neutrals join the war if another true neutral is attacked, is far away from how neutrals act in the real world. Neutrals is exactly that because they don’t care. Why didn’t the true neutrals in South America declare war against Germany when they attacked neutral Tzcechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, Norway etc etc, why would they wait until Germany attacked neutral Sweden …uh…

I believe the current rule act opposite of how the real world neutrals would. All history show that minor neutrals will join the stronger part, not the weak. When neutral Finland was attacked by Russia, neutral Sweden did not go to war against Russia, on the contrary Sweden would help Russia with the blockade and weapons embargo against Finland. And when Germany attacked neutral Denmark and Norway, then Sweden would not go to war against Germany, but help Germany, sell them high grade steel, and let them use the Swedish railroad. And when Germany lost the war, then neutral Sweden would again help and support Russia. And Swedes, Finns, Danes and Norwegians are brothers, and used to be united. So threat are stronger than blood. Even true neutrals like Brazil and Turkey would declare war against Germany in 1945, just to join the winning side, and be allowed to plunder the loser. That is how real world works.

So I guess the rule should be, that if you attack a true neutral, then nothing happens.

Well said Razor. In HBG’s Global 1939 game, strict neutrals are all alone. If you attack one, it ONLY affects that country. None of the others change status. The only time it can sort of go against you is there are a few of the neutrals that are more than one territory. So if you attack one of the territories, whatever units happen to be in the other territory will turn against you and could possibly be picked up by the other side, but those are few and far between. Plus, I think in the case of the neutrals, the only forces they have is on their “capital” territory.
Perhaps we should adopt that rule to Global 1940.

I like this “Angry Birds” strat, if nothing else it’s away from the norm (can get boring). Yea, it will have some pro’s and cons but it would be fun to attempt a few times to perfect it, and see how the other side handles it. Japan laying off would have to be part of this strat IMO so the US couldn’t get to Spain turn 2 (right after the Germans take it). The Japanese can be plowing through China, threatening India, and attacking Siberia etc….and be ready to ponce on the Mongolians when they activate (or break the NAP turning them to Russian so they can attack them).

Looking at house rule;
I also think that neutral blocks could make this too strong unless you bulked up each of the true neutrals so there is more risk in attacking them individually. Both Turkey and Spain (maybe even Sweden) could be broken into 2 territories if using a neutral blocks as well.

Spain could add Madrid territory to the center, allowing all the Spanish coastal territory to remain one territory. The Capital would be surrounded by Portugal to the west, and outer Spain on the rest (be kinda like France). Turkey broken into 2 territories (west/east) would be ideal with the divider following the Syrian coast line. The standing armies would be split up, but bulked up. That way if you attacked either Spain or Turkey you couldn’t kill their entire armies in one turn in most cases. Wouldn’t mind seeing art, and maybe a tank or ftr being mobilized as well (some would even like to see a DD).

@cyanight:

I agree well said Razor.�  I think the mechanic for true neutrals is there to provide a consequence to attacking one.�  Not necessarily historical.

I like your idea of breaking up Turkey into two territories and having it border Bulgaria.

Yes its obvious that the true neutral rule is designed that way to keep players from attacking them. But I would rather give Spain, Sweden and Turkey a much stronger army so they could defend themselves, without dragging neutral South America into the war. Based on the numbers of units that France and Italy start with, I figure that Spain should get at least 10 infantry, and maybe even a tank and a fighter. That would be a bigger discourage than the possibility of getting neutral Chile against you.

Yes, when considering the size of the countries both Spain, Sweden and Turkey should be cut in two territories, Turkey maybe three. Maybe in next edition

Spain is also adjacent to 5 different seazones, so an airbase or port here will unbalance the game, so there is no doubt that Spain need to be cut in more territories, if only just for balace