Japanese IC

I agree with AgentOrange. TPs are more versatile, it seems.

But with an 8 unit build limit, Japan is going to HAVE to build an IC at some point, probably sooner rather than later, just to be able to field all of their units.  Once you have 4 TRN’s adjacent to Japan, you are at max capacity… 8 land units fill 4 trannies, and that is all you can build.

By J3 or J4, that 8 unit limit is going to HURT, so you need AT LEAST one more IC, preferably on the continent, that can eat up 15 or more IPC’s of production and get you 3 more units in Asia.

Personally, I like the first IC in FIC.  It is the most flexible, allowing you to send land forces to and through India to Persia, then either against Caucuses or into Africa; also allows for forces to be sent to and through China, SInkiang, then to Novo and beyond; and allows for a TRN and land units to be built to send for Africa and/or Australia.

For a second factory… Manchuria.  Second most flexible.  Allows land units to go to Russian Eastern territories, or to and through China, Sinkiang, Novo; and can be used for naval builds to defend Japan, or to stage additonal units in preparation for a push against the US.

Third would be Kwang.  Equivalent to the others for China push, but less effective at either Russia East or India runs.

Last would be East Indies (or Borneo).  Sure, they have 4’s instead of 3’s, but since you have to build trannies to get anything out of there, then your “extra” unit is just another tranny, AND it costs you an extra 8 IPC’s to get only TWO units into the action somewhere.

Caveat:  If you take India early, and can hold it, I like to put my first IC THERE!

No more than 2 are necessary.  No less than 2 are necessary.  Manchuria and French Indo China are the locations.

Octo

Octo,

Again you need to do some qualifying…

Let’s say that a commonly posted KJF is used… India builds an India IC, and US builds a Sinkiang IC (I think both are HORRIBLE moves, but let’s go with it for a minute…)

In J1, Japan builds trannie and land forces.  Their initial objective will be to reinforce their mainland areas, especially FIC, and take China.

In J2, more trannies, more ground forces, and some or all of Japan’s intial tranny capacity and ground units will be sent to FIC.

In J3, Japan takes India, FIC trannies move back to Japan to get new units from the J2 build and offload to Asia, preferable Manchuria.  J2 trannies offload to Bury of FIC, depending on where Japan is thin, and where the Allies have strengthened.  Part of J3 purchase was an IC that will be placed in Manchuria.

J4 or J5, the Sinkiang IC is taken.

At this point, Japan has 3 mainland IC’s… India, Sinkiang, Manchuria, plus 5 or 6 TRN off Japan, and of course their remaining Capital ships in a standoff against US Naval forces that are probably nearby…

Build INF/ART in Sinkiang, ARM in India and Manch, INF and ARM in Japan.  All 3 avenues of attack on Russia are WIDE open.  Germany has made major inroads against Russia since UK was spending so much of their money (15 in UK1, minimum 9 in UK2 and UK3) in India, and US also spent a lot of money in Asia (15 in US1, then probably 10 each in US2, 3, 4).

Saying that Sinkiang and India IC’s are horrible moves tells me that you play very limited opponents. Either that or you can’t see the grander strategy.

I would agree that the move is wasted so long as just the one is built. However, with a US IC in Sinkiang plus the UK IC in India, UK and US are putting a slight pressure on Japan (who has the advantage, I admit), while relieving the back of Russia.

We played a game yesterday, where this was done. It helped Russia focus on Germany, even if they had to give up the far eastern areas to japan. With Russias back free, they went for Germany, with the help of UK/US forces from UK. Germany was quickly crushed in the wedge created by Russia - UK/US. By the time Germany was out of the picture, Japan had captured both India and Sinkiang, but they were acceptable losses. And as must happen when only one of the Axis are left, Japan was also crushed.

Bedog, not sure what opponents you are playing… but the removal of THAT many IPC’s from the German attack means Germany should be rocking Russia’s socks.

And that “slight” pressure you talk about comes at an exceedingly high price…  the fall of Russia.

Japan can take BOTH of those IC’s, even with the US and UK pouring all they can into them.

The opportunity cost of those IC’s… loss of 15IPC’s each in turn 1, then of the 25 or so IPC’s each round to maintian them… is simply too high.  Especially the draw off UK, that really NEEDS to have a TRN fleet to threaten Western and other German territories while also reinforcing Karelia, etc.

You take that away, and Russia WILL fall.

If it does not, check your German play…

As I stated, Japan has the upper hand.
And yes, statistics speak in you favour.

But to call it a horrible move still seems to push it a bit too far ;)

And the 3 IPC’s that Japan “get for free” in the east are easily countered in the west for russia.

I’m not questioning your japanese stratey, I’m just saying that the IC’s in India and Sinkiang aren’t necessarily horrible :D

It must be added that the US invaded Algeria on US1, and thus put pressure on Germany that way, so Germany was split between holding the west, exchanging blows with russia and trying to get africa.
And yes, I do believe that the German player made some mistakes in the game we played. And, in my opinion, his fatality rose from the fact that he overstretched.

OK, do not want to get into a fight but…

Without UK reinforcing Africa via India… Africa is LOST to UK, period.  Anything less is abysmal German play.  The US landing in Algeria is NOT an issue if Germany still ahs their BB and TRN in the Med.  The ARM and INF from the Egypt attack in G1 raid UK IPC’s in Africa, the original Algeria forces, plus reinforcements from Southern, hold the US at bay, then kick them out.

Meanwhile, Germany has NO allied reinforcements to face in the Karelia/Archangel avenue of attack… so those gains are free.  All Germany has to counter is the West Russia Stack, wich it will begin doing in G2 with their Eastern Stack.

Russia start to lose income, UK gets down to half income about the time India falls and Japan starts BUILDING there… to send TANKS against Caucuses about the tiem Germany is laying seige to it…

It is just a really bad move.  You MIGHT hold Japan back for a bit that way… but the opportunity cost is DREADFUL for Russia.

I am already comitted to the next 2 games (one against Octo’s “new” Japan strat, and a re-match with Tri with me as Allies), r I would volunteer to take you on and prove it to ya :-)

If you want to put this thread on hold, e-mail me in a few weeks and we can play this game out… you as allies with a comittment to 2 Allied IC’s in Turn 1, me as Axis…

I must admit, I am foaming at the mouth to play.

The only way I can prove my point is to play…and play…and play.

:lol:

@ncscswitch:

OK, do not want to get into a fight but…

Not fighting, arguing ;)

@ncscswitch:

Without UK reinforcing Africa via India… Africa is LOST to UK, period.  Anything less is abysmal German play.  The US landing in Algeria is NOT an issue if Germany still ahs their BB and TRN in the Med.  The ARM and INF from the Egypt attack in G1 raid UK IPC’s in Africa, the original Algeria forces, plus reinforcements from Southern, hold the US at bay, then kick them out.
Meanwhile, Germany has NO allied reinforcements to face in the Karelia/Archangel avenue of attack… so those gains are free.  All Germany has to counter is the West Russia Stack, wich it will begin doing in G2 with their Eastern Stack.
Russia start to lose income, UK gets down to half income about the time India falls and Japan starts BUILDING there… to send TANKS against Caucuses about the tiem Germany is laying seige to it…
It is just a really bad move.  You MIGHT hold Japan back for a bit that way… but the opportunity cost is DREADFUL for Russia.

I guess my point can be summarized as follows: Not everyone follows the standard play ;)
That’s the problem with any military plan. They’re watertight, up until the first shots are fired, then they all go down the drain and you have to improvise and come up with alternatives.

@ncscswitch:

I am already comitted to the next 2 games (one against Octo’s “new” Japan strat, and a re-match with Tri with me as Allies), r I would volunteer to take you on and prove it to ya :-)

If you want to put this thread on hold, e-mail me in a few weeks and we can play this game out… you as allies with a comittment to 2 Allied IC’s in Turn 1, me as Axis…

I take your word for it, no need to prove it in a game.
Also, I play A&A purely as a social phenomenon, if I can’t see the face of my opponent, I don’t play ;)

I have to agree with NCS here on the point of putting the ICs in India/ Sinkiang… Japan is too strong to hold off with those ICs baring a string of bad dice rolls.

Japan can take BOTH of those IC’s, even with the US and UK pouring all they can into them.

India + USA can only pour 5 units worth per turn wheras Japan (especially if they go IC on J1 in FIC) can probably manage by J2 or J3 to have a 2/ 3-1 advantage in units. Plus, the extra units spent on Japan in this manner (including the 30 allied IPCs just getting the ICs up and running) will sap from the ability to protect Russia.

As Germany, by G2 I would be licking my chops because I would know the US/ UK are not going to be able to mount a serious offensive against WEu for a few turns, thus giving me the ability to throw everything I can against Russia. And, as was stated before, I will own Africa and if the UK doesn’t bring the India troops over to counter, I would even consider pumping some more troops into Africa every turn in order to ensure that it stays German against any US counter.

An unfettered Germany free from Allied assaults = BIG problem for Russia by G3/ G4.

You got it Kyrial!

Even with the “Best Defense” poured into those IC’s… 2 FIGs each, plus an extra unit as UK (they can’t afford 3 FIGs), those IC’s still fall.

And with THAT amount of IPC’s into Asia… Germany is going to hold Russia NLT G4.

@ncscswitch:

Without UK reinforcing Africa via India… Africa is LOST to UK, period.  Anything less is abysmal German play.  The US landing in Algeria is NOT an issue if Germany still ahs their BB and TRN in the Med.  The ARM and INF from the Egypt attack in G1 raid UK IPC’s in Africa, the original Algeria forces, plus reinforcements from Southern, hold the US at bay, then kick them out.

I’ve had some success kicking the Germans out of Africa by placing a US IC in Brazil. On turn one, buy the factory and a transport and whatever else you feel like buying. Place the factory in Brazil, send the loaded east coast transport down to Brazil. Next buy, get a destroyer and an Inf+tank to place in Brazil. There is no way Germany can counter the US pressure without spending AT LEAST 7 ipc per turn to ship down to Africa. This only helps the Russians. Meanwhile, the UK is kept in the money. The slowing of the US surge toward Europe is worth keeping the UK wealthy, and when Africa is secure, the US can just shutter that Brazilian factory. Maybe use it to send tanks to Africa to send to the far east to help Russia fight where needed.

Interesting concept… Seems like a VERY high opportunity cost… but perhaps a “gadget play” to keep in mind for the future…

More RE the Brazilian factory;
One has to consider the cost of letting the Germans run rampant in Africa, too. Not only is the UK impoverished, Germany gets fat. I don’t have the board here with me, but UK holdings in Africa (minus Madagascar) are what, 8 IPC? Without the Brazil factory, the US has only one Africa invasion target, but with it the whole east coast of Africa is exposed. Plus, it positions the US to have troops in Africa to possibly be used in a southern assault on Europe. Germany has countered this move in the past, but at the cost of buying a substantial Mediterranean fleet. We had a game where Germany ended the game with a 12-piece navy off Italy!

If you play with NAs, the Brazilian factory works wonderfully with mechanized infantry. The major drawback is that once it has served its purpose the factory is pretty much useless. But for 15 IPC, I’ve found it very useful.

So you use regular trannies and have them make an extra move to get to south of the Sahara.

And… unlike the Brazil factory, when the need for US in Africa is over, those trannies work JUST as well for sending troops to Western Europe, Norway, Southern Europe… or perhaps even through the Panama Canal to go Island Hoping…