The UK beast

You can also use the transports to take Norway and Sweden.  That should help pay for transport purchase.

@Texas:

You can also use the transports to take Norway and Sweden.  That should help pay for transport purchase.

No no, Norway and Sweden thats 8 soldiers on each to kill (they’re 4IPC each right?), so you can expect 4 casualties per country, so the cost of taking them would be at least 12 ipc per country (4 x 3IPC for an inf). You would have to hold on to them at least 3 turns to gain profit from it.

@Cornwallis:

@Texas:

You can also use the transports to take Norway and Sweden.�  That should help pay for transport purchase.

No no, Norway and Sweden thats 8 soldiers on each to kill (they’re 4IPC each right?), so you can expect 4 casualties per country, so the cost of taking them would be at least 12 ipc per country (4 x 3IPC for an inf). You would have to hold on to them at least 3 turns to gain profit from it.

Well yeah, but I would bring tanks with me.  I wouldn’t do Sea Lion without tanks either.

@Texas:

@Cornwallis:

@Texas:

You can also use the transports to take Norway and Sweden.�  That should help pay for transport purchase.

No no, Norway and Sweden thats 8 soldiers on each to kill (they’re 4IPC each right?), so you can expect 4 casualties per country, so the cost of taking them would be at least 12 ipc per country (4 x 3IPC for an inf). You would have to hold on to them at least 3 turns to gain profit from it.

Well yeah, but I would bring tanks with me.  I wouldn’t do Sea Lion without tanks either.

Tanks don’t incassate a hit in a landing. Tanks come in from turn 4 so you take Norway or Sweden turn 5 at the earliest. If you take them this late, you must be going for an economic victory.

A neutral only stands up 1 artillery, so there is only a 50% shot of 1 hit on the landing.  The tanks will take of the hits during the normal round of combat.  The other territory would be taken by land so no landing to worry about there.

I’m not sure what you mean by an economic victory.  The cost of attacking in the early rounds is very high and this is why most are struggling with the CPs.  They feel that they have to get a bunch done before the Americans arrive.  This is strategy that carries over from WWII games.  The Allies are having so much success in this game due to the timing of when they go on the offensive, typically after tanks are introduced, which greatly reduce the cost of attacking.

economic victory is when the CP’s have more income than the Allies. So actually taking all the neutral countries (Denmark, Holland, Sweden, Norway). By controlling the  North Sea (and with your transports harressing the english coast) can you get more income than the Allies you guess?

@Cornwallis:

economic victory is when the CP’s have more income than the Allies. So actually taking all the neutral countries (Denmark, Holland, Sweden, Norway). By controlling the  North Sea (and with your transports harressing the english coast) can you get more income than the Allies you guess?

Maybe…

CP: Ger (35), AH (26), Ott (16), Ger Africa losses (-4), Denmark (2), Norway (4), Sweden (4), Holland (2), Poland (3), Belgium (2), Bulgaria (3), Serbia (2), Romania (3), Albania (2), Arabia (1), Persia (2), Egypt (2), Sevastopol (3), Livonia (2), Scotland (2), Lorraine (2)…Total (114)

Allies: Russia (25), France (24), UK (30), Italy (14), US (20), Africa (eight), Portugal (2), Spain (4), Poland (-3), Venice (-2), Scotland (-2), Lorraine (-2), Egypt (-2), Sevastopal (-3)…Total (111)

This was based on the Ottomans having more success due to the British being harassed directly.  If Germany takes Scandinavia, they could push into Finland and beyond, which I didn’t include.  I don’t think it’s completely impossible, but of course, it is completely hypothetical at this point.

Planning for a Sealion is definitely thinking outside the box.  While I am of the opinion that it is not viable, I still appreciate the discussion/debate.

The three issues I can see are:

1.)  The UK can rebuild its fleet-and fast.  And it will, at the first sign of German transports.  Combined with French reinforcements (BB/CA in sz8), UK can drop 2 BBs or BB/2 subs UK1 if it wants (although a UK2 navy build is far more common).  This will make keeping any German invasion fleet alive that much harder.

2.)  The British Isles start with 15 land units.  These units usually consolidate in London on UK1-2.  Thus, Germany needs 8+ transports, and even then will probably not be able to take London cleanly in 1 combat.  Which brings me to my last point…

3.)  UK can drop 30-40 IPCs of land units in London on its turn.  If Germany’s fleet survived the mines/UK fleet, if London was invaded and contested, this will end any hope of Germany conquering it on their follow-up turn.

It has been suggested that Germany take its fleet to sz4 and drop in Scotland.  If I’m the Allies, I would one-two the German fleet with France/UK, and drop enough units in London to destroy the German army in Scotland.  In the meantime, Germany’s efforts in Europe proper would be severely hampered by the land units (16) that are in Scotland and the 48 IPCs worth of Transports (8 trn, right?) that could have been used for, say, 16 Infantry.

It has also been suggested that Sealion will slow down Britain in India by having to spend money for London.  As soon as the German navy has been dispatched, Britain can easily spend its full income in India again.  US should also be involved in the war effort by now–not a pretty picture for Germany.

On the other hand, German fighters from Belgium can reach London; perhaps this can help offset the cost of transports/troops to invade?

I am still working the feasibility of this particular plan, so the details are still fuzzy.  Responding to you comments:

1. This is the biggest obstacle of the plan, however, for every IPC the UK spends on warships, the less it is spending on troops to land in Europe or India.

2.  This is less than what France starts with, so not necessarily a deal breaker.  I also don’t thin it is possible to capture London on a single landing either.

3.  France can dump 30 IPC or in Paris as well, not to mention everything else that has fallen back.  I also have ruled out SZ 9 as a feasible option.  One, you have to deal with mines and to prevent having to move transports back and forth risking mines each time you would have to load through an uncontested Belgium (not easy to keep it that way).

The best option I am considering now is to funnel through Norway with half you transports in your home port and the rest between Scotland and Norway.  This option also provides a boost in income.  Also, half your transports are better protected.  This option also puts pressure on Russia from the north.

As far as your comments regarding Germany’s efforts being hampered in mainland Europe is true, you also don’t have to do as much.  You don’t even need to attack France since you don’t need to capture Paris.

Like I said, I am still hammering out the details, but I am favoring 6 transports at the moment.  Picking up Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Finland (12 IPCs) helps offset the expenses.

I think the CP has to experiment with Navy.

Has anyone considered a German Conquest of Norway/Sweden to boost income?

+8 goes a long way…  and a handful of transports, forces UK to defend london early, buying the ottomans time.

A new front also gets opened up on the Russians.

I’ll agree that alot of the ‘new ideas’ posted in this thread are unconvential, but this is a drastically different game, and there are alot of -untested- possibilities.

Played a game Saturday with pretty heavy German navy, but they never did get past two transports.  It actually worked pretty well, with the Kaiserliche Marine able to hold off the British Navy 'til about turn six or so.  Some ground was lost to the French on the mainland, but the British weren’t really able to support, and the French were quickly pushed back once tanks came out. Didn’t go after Sweden or Norway, though–just seems awful expensive, and puts troop out of position for two or three rounds.  Might be worthwhile, though–Germany does need the cash, for sure.

Scandinavia is an interesting proposal, and if you’re going for income you should take Denmark with air support (and probably Holland) on G1, as you buy the transports. I would think that you attack the UK home fleet with all available German navy to keep it strong (leave the Canadians alone). Don’t forget about the Russian BB in the Baltic that will run the gauntlet of mines to kill off your transports, so you will need to use one of your cruisers to block it out (or build something). Surviving units in Denmark (or Holland) can be used to load for G2 attack on Norway or Sweden safely (no mines). I would be concerned about killing the 8 units in either Norway or Sweden on G2 in the first round though, even if you buy 4-5 transports (8-10 units). I would think you would fly over the ftr, but even with air support you could very well end up contested, plus your hand is tipped as you need to clean things up, and it slows a G3 invasion of the other 4 IPC (8 units) neutral territory. The combined Allied navies put up good defense to protect their own transports, but they do lack a bit in individual naval power when it comes to performing an attack on a beefed up German navy. It will force them to buy ships to attack you even if they go with multiple powers in those attacks (which they will). Just like you, if they are buying boats, then they have fewer ground units, and the 12 IPCs you would eventually get from Denmark, Holland, Norway & Sweden will help, but also paint a target for the Americans LOL.

My first CP victory in 9 games with a german fleet of 8 trpts. General idea was first forcing russia in RR, then turn on france. Ottomans playing a cat and mouse game with GB while pushing towards africa. We just gave Germany 36IPC on G1 but did -1 IPC on G2.

G1: Bought  1BB and 4trpts. Attacked denmark, Lorraine and belgium and took poland with large forces, which were reinforced with austria
G2: attacked sweden with the troops from denmark + fighter. Killed 5 of them. Withdrew in the west while attacking Holland.In the east reinforced ukraine which was taken by austrua
G3: took sweden. attacked moskou and kept it contested so RR on turn 4.

From then on we just kept pushing towards paris by the coastline, while austria attacked by venice and piemonte. Italy was bypassed until Austria turn 8 I think, when the french were forced to withdraw to paris. GB built heavily on India, but had to built an atlantic fleet to protect London and had to reinforce the french very soon so Ottomans were able to get incomes of about 21IPC.

Conclusion, the RR is ideal for CP if you let the russians keep Finland, Karelia and Sebastopol and thus deny GB the acces to romenia etc. The extra income by sweden and denmark allows the germans to get an income of 47-50 IPC. We’re not A&A noobs, we thought it was impossible for CP to win, but i think we found Larry Harris his strategy by which he claims the CP can win:p

@Cornwallis:

My first CP victory in 9 games with a german fleet of 8 trpts. General idea was first forcing russia in RR, then turn on france. Ottomans playing a cat and mouse game with GB while pushing towards africa. We just gave Germany 36IPC on G1 but did -1 IPC on G2.

G1: Bought  1BB and 4trpts. Attacked denmark, Lorraine and belgium and took poland with large forces, which were reinforced with austria
G2: attacked sweden with the troops from denmark + fighter. Killed 5 of them. Withdrew in the west while attacking Holland.In the east reinforced ukraine which was taken by austrua
G3: took sweden. attacked moskou and kept it contested so RR on turn 4.

From then on we just kept pushing towards paris by the coastline, while austria attacked by venice and piemonte. Italy was bypassed until Austria turn 8 I think, when the french were forced to withdraw to paris. GB built heavily on India, but had to built an atlantic fleet to protect London and had to reinforce the french very soon so Ottomans were able to get incomes of about 21IPC.

Conclusion, the RR is ideal for CP if you let the russians keep Finland, Karelia and Sebastopol and thus deny GB the acces to romenia etc. The extra income by sweden and denmark allows the germans to get an income of 47-50 IPC. We’re not A&A noobs, we thought it was impossible for CP to win, but i think we found Larry Harris his strategy by which he claims the CP can win:p

Well if this is true, it means there is only one way to win :(

I do like the idea of Germany taking all the Neutrals, lots of IPCs there. Think 8 transports is overkill though…were they needed? Or would 4 have been enough?

I also dont like the fact that you have to ‘game’ RR to win. Honestly i think the game is better off without using RR, though it may imbalance it further?

@Uncrustable:

@Cornwallis:

My first CP victory in 9 games with a german fleet of 8 trpts. General idea was first forcing russia in RR, then turn on france. Ottomans playing a cat and mouse game with GB while pushing towards africa. We just gave Germany 36IPC on G1 but did -1 IPC on G2.

G1: Bought  1BB and 4trpts. Attacked denmark, Lorraine and belgium and took poland with large forces, which were reinforced with austria
G2: attacked sweden with the troops from denmark + fighter. Killed 5 of them. Withdrew in the west while attacking Holland.In the east reinforced ukraine which was taken by austrua
G3: took sweden. attacked moskou and kept it contested so RR on turn 4.

From then on we just kept pushing towards paris by the coastline, while austria attacked by venice and piemonte. Italy was bypassed until Austria turn 8 I think, when the french were forced to withdraw to paris. GB built heavily on India, but had to built an atlantic fleet to protect London and had to reinforce the french very soon so Ottomans were able to get incomes of about 21IPC.

Conclusion, the RR is ideal for CP if you let the russians keep Finland, Karelia and Sebastopol and thus deny GB the acces to romenia etc. The extra income by sweden and denmark allows the germans to get an income of 47-50 IPC. We’re not A&A noobs, we thought it was impossible for CP to win, but i think we found Larry Harris his strategy by which he claims the CP can win:p

Well if this is true, it means there is only one way to win :(

I do like the idea of Germany taking all the Neutrals, lots of IPCs there. Think 8 transports is overkill though…were they needed? Or would 4 have been enough?

I also dont like the fact that you have to ‘game’ RR to win. Honestly i think the game is better off without using RR, though it may imbalance it further?

I only built 4 trpts not 8. Hm It might be possible without, but you definitely need the RR. It closes the entire eastern flanc for the CP. One of the key buys was an austrian fleet of 4 BB in turn 7 I think, followed by 2trpts to clean the sea zone around italy (allies will withdraw their fleet to counter the german one cause of the trpts) and occupy the italian sea zone and thus landing in africa each turn.

Ok yeah. I like the idea of Germany getting 2-3 transports and taking all the Nuetrals. That would pay off and the Fleet could stay in the Baltic, use the double mines as added protection

Yeah, you could get two sea zones of mine protection in theory.

And once you get a few pieces of artillery onto Norway, no one is going to be landing anytime soon.

Yeah, coastal artillery is awesome, but they will generally try to side step them if they get a chance to.