Makes sense Charles DG. General HG uses armored cars as artillery scouts. Could do something similar.
Does anyone else think tanks are too expensive?
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compared with infantry?
I think the game would be better balanced if infantry were 4 IPCs and tanks were 6 IPCs or something close to that ratio.
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Well, the difference is the same, I really think it’s all right the way it is.
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I agree with G.I.
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I agree too the costs are fine. It is balanced!
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@Grigoriy:
Well, the difference is the same, I really think it’s all right the way it is.
No it’s not the same! You have to consider the ratio. With infantry at 3 IPCs and tanks at 5 IPCs you can build 5 infantry for every 3 tanks. With infantry at 4 IPCS and tanks at 6 IPCs you can build 6 infantry for every 4 tanks. 4 tanks versus 6 infantry have a much better chance of winning than 3 tanks versus 5 infantry.
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I agree too the costs are fine. It is balanced!
Here is what an article from Avalon Hill says:
Because infantry is cheap, the defender can always build up the defense faster than the attacker can build up the offense, IPC for IPC. No combination of infantry, armor, fighters, and bombers totaling 30 IPCs will beat 30 IPCs’ worth (10 units) of defending infantry. Against that defense, the attacker needs to spend at least 38 IPCs, split about equally between six infantry and four armor, in order to reach a 50/50 chance to take the territory. Even if that attack succeeds, odds are that the attackers will lose so many units they won’t be able to hold the territory afterward. To reliably win the battle and have enough surviving infantry to protect the armor against counterattack requires an assault force of at least 10 infantry and four or five tanks – a minimum of 55 IPCs in the attack, almost two-to-one against the defenders.
http://www.avalonhill.com/default.asp?x=articles/strat/aa20020724
How is that balanced?
I think changing the relative cost of infantry and tanks will not only help balance infantry and tanks but also help balance Axis versus Allies.
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It isn’t perfectly balanced (but it’s close enough) … you must also take into consideration the movement factors. Tanks move 2, infantry units move 1 – but on the second hand … infantry units transport 2 at a time, tanks only transport one at a time.
To me … the price ratio is fine. Infantry units do have a slight advantage – but, this is because they are the most important unit in the game.
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Tanks should really be worth only 4.5 IPCs. However, rather than using a half an IPC, I much rather let the value be rounded up to 5 than down to 4. 4 IPC tanks are very scary indeed.
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If Avalon Hill felt that way why didn’t they change the costs??
Yeah mass infantry rule on defense by themselves but on attack they really are cannon fodder for the most part. And you forget they only move space at a time.
You need to take in consideration on everything when it comes to tanks and infantry. You still will need tanks for the attack.
A 3 or less is easier to roll than a 1.
Here’s a idea how about upping the stats for the tank to attack of 4.
Will that be balanced then?
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@TG:
Tanks should really be worth only 4.5 IPCs. However, rather than using a half an IPC, I much rather let the value be rounded up to 5 than down to 4. 4 IPC tanks are very scary indeed.
Maybe you could have a rule where they are worth 4.5 IPCs and that you round up. So if you buy one tank, it costs 5 IPCS and if you buy 2 tanks it costs 9 IPCS and if you buy 3 tanks it costs 14 IPCs etc. The MIT House rules have a feature like that for industrial technology. Under the MIT house rules industrial technology makes infantry cost 2.5 IPCs, rounded up. I think that’s a good rule because 2 IPC infantry are just unstoppable. They’d probably even make good attackers at that price.
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Here’s a idea how about upping the stats for the tank to attack of 4.
Will that be balanced then?
I think so! I think it might make for a more interesting game too. But I don’t know; I haven’t tried it.
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I don’t think anyone has mentioned this yet but another advantage that infantry have over tanks is that they can fire on aircraft and tanks cannot.
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uh… tanks can’t fire at aircraft? I don’t think so…
Tanks that attack at 4 wuld be unstable. If this were true Germany is capable of some unstopable moves early in the game.
As for the idea of rounding up and splitting for two armor (2 tanks for 9 IPCs), it sounds like it might work. The 1 IPC difference isn’t much, but it helps. :) -
I don’t think anyone has mentioned this yet but another advantage that infantry have over tanks is that they can fire on aircraft and tanks cannot.
I did not know this; I always just play that whatever’s there defends against whatever attacks.
As far as the new ideas, I think that the idea of the game is to have to know when to purchase what units. If you balance it so you can buy enough armor to break down an infantry defense, then it would make the game too easy. Also, 4 IPC inf would give the Russians two less inf the first turn, making it too easy for the Germans to take Karelia, IMO. But maybe there’s some point I’m missing here.
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Tanks can definitely fire on aircraft…
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Tanks can definitely fire on aircraft…
That’s what I had always thought too. But now I’m wondering how do they actually fire on aircraft? Are tanks equipped with rocket launchers or something?
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In addition to the main cannon … most tanks have machine guns.
Since, A&A doesn’t discriminate for the various types of combat (i.e. air to air, surface to surface, air to surface, surface to air) tanks are simply given a 3 or less to hit (offensively). In reality … tanks should be lower when engaging in surface to air combat vs. surface to surface.
The new AAA (Advanced Axis & Allies) impliments this very idea. Sounds like it’s going to be a great game!
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Maybe this will help you can buy tanks at 5 per or 2 for 9???
May be we need to change the price costs for buying more than one?
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Like I said, that would work. :)
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These prices could be used for any A&A game or variant but obviously affect bidding.
Inflation-
Inf 4
Rtl/Mar 5
Arm 6
Sub 10
Trn 10
Ftr 15
Dstr 15
Bmr 20
Ac 24
Bshp 32Good for high income games/variants. Ground attack units (Rtl/Mar/Arm) are now proportionately cheaper, all other ratios pretty much the same. Buying less units means more strategy in purchasing and deployment.
Deflation-
Inf 2
Rtl/Mar 3
Arm 4
Sub 6
Trn 6
Ftr 8
Dstr 8
Bmr 10
Ac 12
Bshp 15Good for low income games/variants or if you want to roll lots of dice. Ground attack units (Rtl/Mar/Arm) are now more expensive, you need to increase the arm attack to a 4 or the defense to a 3. Bmr’s, Ac’s and Bshp’s are now a little bit proportionately cheaper.
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