Actually, Janus is right, there were a few breaks from Alcatraz. They made it into the water, but were never caught.
This is completely off the debate that’s been going on, but I just realized that if conditions in a jail (thanks LJ :wink: ) are better than those in Russia, that says that either it’s a very nice jail or things are pretty bad in Russia. But I guess that’s not too important. :-?
I think the point is that those people who would like to criticize the US for inhumane conditions in Guantanamo Bay, need to rethink just what inhumane means.
D:S, i think you hit the nail right on the head
@El:
Jail is where the accused are held.
Prison is where the convicts serve their time
Thanks for the info. Didn’t know that.
Well, i think the point why noone escaped alive from Alcatraz is not that it was harsh or nice. It is a bloody rock surrounded by bloody water. You could give the people inside Playstations, beer and pool billard…. it would not change their chances to escape.
If you put them on the island without such harsh conditions (visit the prison, and youll see the security was pretty damn tight. even still, I would argue that it could stand to be much harsher) they could escape. It is an island, obviously to contribute to the difficulty of escape, but you can swim from their to shore if you are in decent shape, …
@CC:
Even if you were the greatest swimmer ever, and you managed to escape somehow, and swam to shore, don’t you think you’d get picked up pretty quick, if you weren’t shot in the water?
So, Janus… if “harsh conditions” is guards with guns and infrared views on towers then we agree.
You mentioned a “tight security”, so i guess that is what we agree on as a (my view:) major / (your view:) minor factor for the chances of an escape.
High security does not mean treating the inmates like scum. You can treat them as humans, of give them conditions where they can live like humans (even though under “supervision”).
Why does … say a TV set … help the people escape?
What exactly is “harsh” for you, and how is it the main factor for people not breaking out of jail or prison?
F_alk, what is it about Guantanamo Bay, exactly, that is so inhumane in comparison to other detention facilities in this country?
That is hardly harsh conditions. While I do not disagree that the US officials may be lying about the reasons for the measures, I dont really care, I think they are all justified, and better than they deserve.
I never said harsh conditions were guards and towers. I dont know where you pulled that from, because that is not something i would say.
there should be harsh conditions and tight security.
I didnt say high security meant treating them like scum, there is a difference. but i think both should be employed. prisoners are scum, thats why they are being punished.
A TV set doesnt help them escape, but they dont deserve one, it is a form of entertainment they dont need. They are scum and should be treated as such.
I didnt say high security meant treating them like scum, there is a difference. but i think both should be employed. prisoners are scum, thats why they are being punished.
Yes… but many of these prisoners have not been convicted of any crime or brought to trial. Plus, there may be innocent people there caught in the crossfire.
As LJ so nicely pointed out, Jail is where the accused are held, so the prisons (which I am talking about specifically) is holding the convicted only
I never said harsh conditions were guards and towers. I dont know where you pulled that from, because that is not something i would say.
If A(present tense) then B(conditional I)…… => fair chance of A happening.
I see my mistake: it should have at least been:
If “harsh conditions” was guards… then we would agree.
I didnt say high security meant treating them like scum, …prisoners are scum, … They are scum and should be treated as such.
i see.
BTW:
@Janus:
the prisons (which I am talking about specifically)
@ Janus. there is no need to stick at my involuntary diversion form the topic. Let’s talk about the jail in Guantanamo bay again.
@ all: a person in prison is a prisoner. What is a person in jail called?
As LJ so nicely pointed out, Jail is where the accused are held, so the prisons (which I am talking about specifically) is holding the convicted only
Than Guantanamo is also a jail.
What is a person in jail called?
I dont know, ask El Jefe
Than Guantanamo is also a jail.
granted, but even still, i dont think the conditions there are too harsh, or undue.
F_alk, we still have yet to hear of your exact objections to Camp X-Ray. Please list exactly what is so inhumane.
AFAIR the camp X-Raz has been dissolved into some other camps, now listed by letters. THe things that i accused have been mentioned by TG Moses, thus i will not go into that further.
And i have one more problem:
D:S, could you please find me information about the “jail”-camp in Afghanistan and the one on Diego Garcia? You won’t find much information on that, which means i can claim whatever i want and you won"t be able to prove me wrong. Of course, you could do the same thing, saying that it is all good there. … Well, the german people were not told what happened in the KZs either.
If you commit a murder, you should be shot. If you commit a rape, you should be shot, if you commit various other crimes (genocide, torture, etc) you should be shot. below that, you should be put into a jail of conditions so harsh, that when you come out, you would be mortally afraid of committing another crime. with conditions so harsh, the terms would likely not have to be as long, so they could probably be shortened.
If you commit a murder, you should be shot. If you commit a rape, you should be shot, if you commit various other crimes (genocide, torture, etc) you should be shot. below that, you should be put into a jail of conditions so harsh, that when you come out, you would be mortally afraid of committing another crime. with conditions so harsh, the terms would likely not have to be as long, so they could probably be shortened.
yes, but how many of us will admit to committing a murder, or will be determined to have done so beyond a shadow of a doubt? Beyond reasonable doubt is just not good enough - yet this is what kills hundreds of Americans.
well thats is your opinion. and im not voltaire, i usually wont defend your right to say it, but i can actually see the opposite side in this case, though i staunchly disagree with it. nevertheless, as youve already heard me say, im not directly opposed to some innocents losing their lives from being convicted, if it means getting rid of the guilty.
well thats is your opinion. and im not voltaire, i usually wont defend your right to say it, but i can actually see the opposite side in this case, though i staunchly disagree with it. nevertheless, as youve already heard me say, im not directly opposed to some innocents losing their lives from being convicted, if it means getting rid of the guilty.
You like omelets, don’t you? :wink:
yes, but how many of us will admit to committing a murder, or will be determined to have done so beyond a shadow of a doubt? Beyond reasonable doubt is just not good enough - yet this is what kills hundreds of Americans.
So then what do you propose? The only reason I would go along with what Janus says is because it’s the only way I can see to decrease prison populations. I do want to know what the definition of harsh conditions is.
…nevertheless, as youve already heard me say, im not directly opposed to some innocents losing their lives from being convicted, if it means getting rid of the guilty.
Wait a second….
these innocent that are killed then of course are not “unnecessary lives” that are lost…
I see where you are standing, Janus: In Germany we call that Fascist (as has been noticed by others in these fora).
