Research & Development Discussion - Delta+1

The above represents all changes made since the last posting - details of technologies have been rewritten to coincide with forum discussion in an effort to make them more readily understood.

Just FYI, the price of technology dice was reset to the originally voted upon price when the original vote took place.

Editted to make it easier to read.

Great checklist, but I did not include it, I expect the player to be able to do this checklist without our needing to tell him to do it.  As for #7, the vote agreed on six technologies, I think it’s best we stay with what the people voted for as much as possible so there are only six technologies, you don’t have to choose from a list.

The checklist did help me to remember to include all the agreed upon conditions (no China, must have capitol, etc.)  So it did help!

@mantlefan:

Research and Development
1. Are you at war? if so, move on to step 2. If not, continue to Purchase and Repair Phase.
2. Check to see if you still own your capital (good idea YG). If yes, then continue to step 3. If not, continue to Purchase and Repair Phase.
3. Add income as determined by the marker on the IPC tracker to the NO income for which you are currently eligible. UK adds income (both NO and normal) from both governments together to determine this value. See where this number falls on chart in step 4.
4. (Numbers below examples, my point now is the framework.)
Between A and B: 0 Rolls
Between C and D: 1 Roll
Between E and F: 2 Rolls
Between G and H: 3 Rolls
Between I and J: 4 Rolls
K+: 5 rolls.
5. Add as many dice as you would like by paying X IPC each. (Point again is to get the framework, numbers can be specified later)
6. Roll dice. If any 6’s are rolled, move on to step 7. If no 6’s are rolled, continue to Purchase and Repair Phase.
7. Pick 6 techs from the chart of 10. If there are less than 6 techs remaining that you have not researched, pick those that remain. Assign each tech a number 1-6. Start with the highest tech on the list. That is 1. The next highest you picked is 2. (etc., etc., until all techs you picked have a number)
8. Roll one die. You get the tech whose number matches the number you rolled. If you roll a number that has no tech assigned to it (because you already have researched 5 or more techs), you may pick your tech from those that remain.

YG, if I missed any of the spirit of your plan lmk so I can edit this. I think it’s a pretty good synthesis of our two.

@mantlefan:

Is that chart for cash on hand or income+ NO income?

All cash.  Saved, NO Income, Treasury Capture Income, Territory Income.

Mantle, that’s great and all, but we already had a voted in system with all the viarables etc in it.  We were just discussing if there should be changes to how dice are purchased.

A final version is posted. (Notice I said “a final version” and not “the final version.”)  I’m sure there will be a few more discussions over the wording here and there, but everything else should now be ironed out.  Price of dice back to the originally established value.  Threshholds for dice back to the originally established values.  Technology can be ignored if the players wish to ignore it.  The technology tree was combined to make them a bit more powerful and negate the “oh hell, I don’t want THAT ONE!” results, as originally agreed.

The only thing we need feedback on are the actual wordings for each of the technologies.  (The combination of what is there was already agreed on, but maybe we don’t like a certain phrase - we want to replace it with another.)

NEUTRAL ARMIES

If a true neutral is attacked, then the side that did not initiate the attack may purchase extra units in the amount of the territory value times the number of rounds before the territory was attacked in the territory.

He already did.  It’s been six technologies since we started the poll to include or exclude technologies.  For almost the entire game - barring something really wierd, you’re pretty much stuck at 3 or less dice per counter - there’s very little hope of getting 120 IPC a round, but if you do, then…and hey!  If you can manage to get 225 IPC a round, then you deserve to get 6 free rolls!  You need to finish off that snot nosed little brat so he “won’t surrender and fight to the last man” faster!

Question:  Per Alpha Rules (and I think OOB, but I don’t have the manual with me, I left it at the school) England shares technology between India and England, they can pool their resources to buy dice.  Should we include this wording (copied directly from the alpha rules posted on Larry’s site) or do we want to force the nation to split. If we force it to split, how do we handle units moving from board to board?  Or should we limit the purchase to London, as London is the official capitol of the British Empire?

@mantlefan:

So if we realize that something that was voted in is actually detrimental to the game (basing tech on cash on hand instead of income, which encourages ludicrously asinine saving of IPCs and slows the game down considerably), we are stuck with it forever? It seems that quite a few people other than me also think the rolls based on cash would be a mistake, something that was not pointed out before the voting.

The brackets are designed in such a way that it would be crippling for almost any nation throughout the game to try and save up for extra dice.  It may be plausible to see them saving up a few IPC a round for 12 rounds and get up a whole bracket, but even that is not too bad, that’s 12 rounds of a few units not being built, not getting in position and not attacking you.  Keep in mind, Mantlefan, it’s 40 IPC per bracket.  Most of these countries dont even earn 40 IPC, let alone would be willing, able and not punshed for saving that much money in any given turn.

Moreover, keep in mind you can get a “free” die for 15 IPC, instead of saving 40 IPC to get it.  So it would behoove you to buy a die or two, instead of trying to save up all this money.

I think the odds of “ludicrous and asinine” levels of saving for a free die are pretty low, and when it occurs, it’ll be so devastating to the fool who tried it that they’ll lose the game - even if they were winning before.

@mantlefan:

Where’s Jimmy when you need him to explain how dice based on cash rather than income is bad?

We were discussing income vs cash.

If you like, we can put a limit of no more than 15 IPC may be saved from round to round.  I think it’s overly limiting and I highly doubt anyone’s going to save anywhere NEAR the levels required to get to another free die, unless we’re talking like 1-5 IPC that they cannot spend anyway.

You might think a rule is asinine but if the majority of voters did not see it that way and voted for it then yes you are stuck with it. Everyone who wants to play with the Delta rules will have to play by the rules that received majority support.  It is meant to be a collaborative and democratic process.

For the record, I vehemently oppose prohibiting people from saving a few IPC from round to round.  They should have the right to save 1 or 2 IPC, especially if it means getting another shot, but primarily because sometimes people don’t WANT to take 8 IPC and make 2 artillery, maybe they WANT 1 armor.  Why are we punishing them for saving a few IPC?

If the rule was voted for, then the rule will be in Delta 1.  Rules cannot be changed after the vote!  Once people start playtesting Delta 1, it may well be discovered that the rule needs to be changed.  At that point, someone can propose a change for Delta 2.  If that is discussed and tweaked, and then voted on and accepted, then it will be in Delta 2.  Or, the rule accepted for Delta 1 might prove to be good enough and the majority may vote not to change it.

@mantlefan:

When the R&D got voted for it did not make that specific statement automatically the rule. If it did, there wouldn’t be a thread discussion on tweaking it.

No.  After a lot of discussion, we come up with several versions of the rule and then people vote a second time for the version that they think is the best.  The initial vote for something like “Government in Exile” was a vote for the concept in principle.  We then came up with a number of more detailed and carefully considered options and had a second vote to select the final version.

@mantlefan:

Why is simply changing the requirements from money in your pocket to income too big a change?

That should be an option in the secondary vote.

The issue of cash on hand vs income is a non-starter.  You are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Why?

1. It takes 40 IPC to get from one teir to another.  No nation can afford this without either having already won the game and thus technology is just there to stop some idiot who won’t surrender.  Or two, is going to lose the game, in which case you would WANT them to save all their money, so you can take their nation easier.

2. You can get 2.67 dice for the cost of moving from one teir to another.  So instead of getting 1 die next round, you can almost get 3 this round.  Your odds are 3 times better spending the money than saving it.

3. The only realistic scenario of saved cash being used is cash a nation cannot spend or does not need to spend.  This is usually 8 IPC or less - probably less than 4 IPC, just because of the cost of units.

You need every unit you can get on the board.  Papers have been written to prove the argument that feet on the street trumps ability to get feet on the street later, in real life and in Axis and Allies.  I would bet that there is even a CSub paper on the topic, I would just have to find it.  By not buying units so you can save enough IPCs to get another free die you are giving up the following:

1. 100% Chance of having units on the board.
2. 100% Chance of having units that when attacked get to defend.
3. 100% Chance of giving up units that might be able to attack.
4. 100% Chance of losing any reinforcements to move forward - as you did not buy any. (Does not count pre-existing units.)
5. 100% Chance of changing the ratio of your units to your enemy’s units
6. 100% Chance of making the position of your enemies stronger - if only for that one round, but probably a lot longer.
7. 17% Chance to get a technology, and a 17% chance that you get the technology you want.

Basically, you are willing to give up all that for a 3% chance of getting what you want.  I think almost everyone that will play this game would rather spend the money for a 3% chance of getting the technology they want and giving up just a few units instead.  That way they don’t get hit with 1-6 on the chart, they only have to worry about number 7.