Research & Development Discussion - Delta+1

@JimmyHat:

@mantlefan:

Great. Now you’ve unilaterally determined what the final rule is. You admit it wasn’t codified, but then say it’s the final rule. So much for democracy.

She does that, don’t worry about it.

On your scenario with your child.

1: why are NO’s not included?  
2: How is counting your money simpler than looking at your income token and then adding the NO’s you hold?

I did not see them.

Because the INCOME COLLECTED is based on where the marker is on the Collect Income chart - which does not include National Objectives.  Either we’re counting everything, in which case, let’s count everything, or we’re only talking about what territories you control at the end of the round.

Because you do not have to explain to someone that has never played why half their income does not count.  It’s an argument I want to avoid by making this as simple as possible.  You collect 100 IPC, you look at the chart.  You collect 3 IPC, you look at the chart.

CHina was not included because China is the most likely to save income because it can place unlimited units.

@JimmyHat:

Also this whole tech structure puts the corn cob to the minor powers.  Guess it might only be best in 2v2 games or less.

How so?  Now these minor powers actually have a chance to get technology - whereas before they had no chance to get technology.  If anything, it gives them an actual shot at participating and thus not getting over run just because Japan decided to drop 60 IPC on the market over 6 turns and got every major technology out there.

Yeah, simple.  Like take your current income from the income token…currently at the beginning of your turn…add NO ipcs from NO’s you hold currently…like right now.  And then see how much tech you have.

@Cmdr:

@JimmyHat:

Also this whole tech structure puts the corn cob to the minor powers.  Guess it might only be best in 2v2 games or less.

How so?  Now these minor powers actually have a chance to get technology - whereas before they had no chance to get technology.  If anything, it gives them an actual shot at participating and thus not getting over run just because Japan decided to drop 60 IPC on the market over 6 turns and got every major technology out there.

wrong. All nations were on par for tech.  You pay 6 ipcs, you get a die.  Then you roll to see if you get tech.  With your system the little guys are getting the shaft because they cannot afford 15ipcs for a die let alone 48 for 4.

@mantlefan:

Because the income you save and the income you plunder do not represent your per turn production capacity.

Also, Jen, that long post of yours at the end of the last page only shows how one person who maybe thinks they are acting objectively in reality puts a bunch of subjectivity in. What makes your changes minor enough to still be along the lines of what was voted other than that they are yours? Why are you right when you say a change is too big but if someone disagrees they are wrong?

The income you plunder represents resources, materials, bullion, scientific research, valid intelligence and other goods taken from a nation.  It does TOO represent national production, you don’t have to produce as much because you stole it!

@JimmyHat:

wrong. All nations were on par for tech.  You pay 6 ipcs, you get a die.  Then you roll to see if you get tech.  With your system the little guys are getting the shaft because they cannot afford 15ipcs for a die let alone 48 for 4.

No.  No one has to buy a die.  Major nations get 2, minor nations get 1.  It’s the way it’ll mostly turn out, I don’t expect people to buy dice.  If we’re worried about them buying dice, raise the price to 30 IPC a die!  I want free dice, I just dont want to ban purchased dice!

Please God make it stop.

@Vance:

Please God make it stop.

2

@Cmdr:

@JimmyHat:

wrong. All nations were on par for tech.  You pay 6 ipcs, you get a die.  Then you roll to see if you get tech.  With your system the little guys are getting the shaft because they cannot afford 15ipcs for a die let alone 48 for 4.

No.  No one has to buy a die.  Major nations get 2, minor nations get 1.  It’s the way it’ll mostly turn out, I don’t expect people to buy dice.  If we’re worried about them buying dice, raise the price to 30 IPC a die!  I want free dice, I just dont want to ban purchased dice!

notice my use of past tense, as in earlier versions of the game.

I just wish she’d respond to me sometimes.  Instead of misreading what I wrote or ignoring it all together.  Not like I didn’t call it though.

I’ll vote for anything, just please make it stop.

I CAN’T TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!

@JimmyHat:

I just wish she’d respond to me sometimes.  Instead of misreading what I wrote or ignoring it all together.  Not like I didn’t call it though.

I do, I did not feel it necessary to state to you that the idea behind this whole thing was to give the minors at least one free chance a round to get a technology and thus not infringe on their ability to keep themselves sovereign.  Perhaps I should have, you were not there for the original discussion.  It was later added that it should be based on what cash you have so that you could save a few IPC and still get your free die.  Then we wondered how it would work for bigger nations - after all, they have stronger economies, more resources and more historical accuracy in actually developing weapons, but we did not want it to get out of hand, so a tiered system was created.  This discussion was to determine 3 things:

1. What should the tiers be?
2. What should the cost of extra dice be?  Should they be banned altogether?
3. Do we need to refine each individual technology, or are they fine as listed now?

All changing the income brackets would do - in effect - is to destroy the original premise of the rule:  To give minor technologies easier access to technologies.  Anything that makes this fundamental change moot, should be immediately discarded.  We had two votes, both votes were to make it easier for minor countries to get technologies.

Now, your request to make it optional was reasonable, it did not effect the ease of minor countries to get technologies, and was incorporated with little debate.  YG and Vance, primarily, wanted application of technology at the end.  To be honest, I thought it already was in Global, and Anniversary and basically everything since the first day LHTR 2.0 came out for Revised!  Otherwise, I would have stipulated it to begin and it would have been copied over when YG copied the agreed upon rule for further refinement.  Battleships went from being 3 hit to 2 hit but with AA Guns.  Carriers went from carrying 3 fighters to being able to recover fighters when damaged.  Etc.

Basically, refinements are getting in, clarifications are getting in.  I am balking at acquiessing to having major changes that negate the purpose of the new rule from getting in unopposed.  It could still get in - assuming we either have a vote or Vance and YG scream at me and tell me that we need to change it.   Even then I’ll give it one more big push to keep it out - it violates the spirit of the rule!  We wanted MINORS to have FREE access to technology.  We did not want you to have to control half the globe to get one die.

Now, the price of dice are very high to prevent major nations from buying up a bunch of extra dice!  Let’s be frank, Italy, England, Australia are not buying dice even at 5 IPC each.  America, Germany, Japan would buy dice at 20 IPC each if they were motivated - they can afford it!  They just won’t buy as many dice.

I’m good with discussing the price of extra dice.  I really am.  We can even discuss the brackets so that they are high/low enough that you are comfortable with them.  What I won’t do is stop ANZAC (or someone) from saving 2 IPC to qualify for 1 die.

Okay, looking back through here is what we have for actual posted positions:

Young Grasshopper:  Cash on Hand
Vance:  Cash on Hand
Special Forces: Cash on Hand
Salan: Cash on Hand
Jennifer:  Cash on Hand
JimmyHat:  Income end of round (basically, cash on hand, but you cannot count anything saved.) - disclaimer, Jimmy has said he does not want to play with technology and we already appeased him by making it optional.  :wink:  Not saying his argument is invalid, just saying whatever we choose won’t effect him one way or the other as he won’t play with the rule.
Mantlefan:  Either collected income, whatever you would collect at the start of your turn, only purchased dice, etc (he’s had like 6 or 7 submissions, none the same as the rest.)

Right now, just based on what I remember from the pages - as I went through and killed double posts (posts where someone says the exact same thing, just with different words) we have:

5 - Want Cash on Hand, you are allowed to save your income if you want.  That the penalty for saving your money is enough to offset any advantage getting an extra die could possibly give you.
2 - Want (if I can force Mantlefan to agree with JimmyHat’s steady, unchanging request) only what you collect at the end of your round, nothing saved.

Given this, why not say a nation may save up to 5 IPC (since they come in 1s, 5s and 10s) in any given round to apply towards getting a free technology roll next round.  This is about the maximal end of any nation’s realistic savings in any given round is far short of “buying” a die without spending money.  We’ll also conceed that Treasury Money does not count for your free dice - but may be used to purchase dice!

National Objectives - the major source of Germany, Japan, Russia, America and Australia’s income (if attained) will count towards your “income” to determine what free dice you may or may not qualify for.

I hope this compromise is enough that nobody is happy, but all can agree so we can close this discussion and add the rule to the manuscript (which I am typing up, because I asked YG if I could and he said yes. :P  So blame me for all typos!)

Jimmy:  Do you object to this compromise?  (You speak for Mantle now.  IL banned him again.)
YG, Vance, Salan, SpecFor: Do you object to this compromise?

My position(not mantlefans) is that limiting extra dice to 4-6 means minor nations cannot buy extra dice.

Secondly, I vote for going from CoH to Income at the beginning of your turn.  NO’s included…that you hold at the beginning of the turn.  Its very simple because you just look at where your ipc token is on the chart, and add any NO’s you hold right now.

I gave a bunch of reasons a page ago as to why this is the preferred method.  Most of the reasons are one’s Mantlefan came up with, but that doesn’t invalidate them.

@Cmdr:

Given this, why not say a nation may save up to 5 IPC (since they come in 1s, 5s and 10s) in any given round to apply towards getting a free technology roll next round.  This is about the maximal end of any nation’s realistic savings in any given round is far short of “buying” a die without spending money.  We’ll also conceed that Treasury Money does not count for your free dice - but may be used to purchase dice! 
No reason to limit the amount someone can save, it may be a poor tactic but lets not remove it from play.  Also I agree that you can spend your ipcs any way you see fit and that includes tech.

National Objectives - the major source of Germany, Japan, Russia, America and Australia’s income (if attained) will count towards your “income” to determine what free dice you may or may not qualify for.
I agree that NO’s should count towards this.

Although i’m inclined to prefer income at end of turn, I think all the presented options are workable. So i have no objections really.