Seperation of Church and State

@yourbuttocks:

To clear up a couple of points I was trying to make:

First, what I was saying is that what reason would the CIA have to lie? Plus, it is the one of the world’s foremost intelligence gathering organizations, why would French census data be beyond it’s reach?

The CIA has the same reason to lie (if not more) than any french site.
Public information of the CIA is (if they are a good angency) half true (to keep ppl not suspecting) and half false (to let them think what they want / if they are enemies who look, to misinform them).
Therefore an Intelligence Agency usually has more reason to lie than any other “offical” sites.

So, why did you “lol” at Finsternis quoting a french site???

I am happy you use argument and not insult this time…

SOFRES; that is an agencies that make survey. I do not say they are right, just less wrong than the CIA. Because they base their statistic on survey. We are speaking about OPINION, only survey can be of any interest on that. The CIA does not care about opinion, they don’t have time to loose with that, they just take general statistic about how people are born. Because i am, statisticly, as much christian as you are.

Look at germany in the CIA statistic…

Protestant 38%, Roman Catholic 34%, Muslim 1.7%, unaffiliated or other 26.3%…

Why so much unaffiliated in Germany ? Because germany is more atheist than France (in reality it is similar)? More religious diversity ?

Nein, that is because the CIA does not care about survey, they just look how people are born, and in east germany some are born atheist because of the communist, that is why there is more Unaffiliated in germany.

Also WHY, why you want me so much to be burned ? I am not starting any topic each time i make an argument that i consider good. Is that just because i am a strong atheist ? (just a question). If that is the case i can understand; we are opposite, and i am not gentle with religion.

First, government censuses are conducted by sending pieces of paper to people and they fill them out and check what their income, race, religion, etc. You Fisternis, would be Atheist/Non-Aligned/Other because you would check that box.

Second, the French institute of statistics refused to give me the breakdown, so I had to go with multiple sources which agreed with each other, even if they unfortunately are not French.

Third, what the hell is your conspiracy theories about the CIA? Why would it try to fool the American public into believing that France is mostly Catholic? Why would the French census be beyond it’s grasp (even if it is beyond mine)?

Four, I start topics every time I think I have something interesting to talk about (like global warming)

Five, I am trying to point that France is mostly Catholic because you keep tagging America as some kind of fundamentalist state when in reality we have a higher percentage of non-christians/non-aligned

“Third, what the hell is your conspiracy theories about the CIA? Why would it try to fool the American public into believing that France is mostly Catholic? Why would the French census be beyond it’s grasp (even if it is beyond mine)?”

Evil government plot by CIA to take over France by exploiting religious preference (Catholic in this case) – only reasonable explanation.

For Example:
French Fries come from France
French Fries are Yummy
French Fries go good with Ketchup
Ketchup comes from America (or at least I think)
Therefore, it is in my best interest to annex France. :roll:

@TG:

“Third, what the hell is your conspiracy theories about the CIA? Why would it try to fool the American public into believing that France is mostly Catholic? Why would the French census be beyond it’s grasp (even if it is beyond mine)?”

Evil government plot by CIA to take over France by exploiting religious preference (Catholic in this case) – only reasonable explanation.

For Example:
French Fries come from France
French Fries are Yummy
French Fries go good with Ketchup
Ketchup comes from America (or at least I think)
Therefore, it is in my best interest to annex France. :roll:

yeah, but Frenchmen come from France . . . .

bah, that’s futile, you did’nt even answer my “germany” argument…

How much can the religious affiliations shift in what, five years?

I am not saying its a conspiracy inside the CIA, I’m just saying they are incorrect. They do not use direct French Surveys for this. They look at past censuses, and add in the average birth rate. This does not account for people converting, giving up their religion, or not being the religion of their Parents.

In fact they do not even use survey… i think the “germany” case is a good argument.

Fin, how often do censuses occur in France?

I don’t know

@FinsterniS:

In fact they do not even use survey… i think the “germany” case is a good argument.

How do you know that the CIA does not use census? What else would they use?

How do you know Germany stats better than CIA?

@Yanny:

Ha! I have found proof to deny your statement of saying “The Constitution’s laws against Religions were ment to stop a Church of England law”

Source: Book “Liberty, The American Revolution” Page 351, Last Paragraph.

“In Virginia, the Church petitioned Congress for a bill of new laws based on the Christian Religion…”, then later that paragraph “… The Congress unanimously voted against any laws based on the Christian Religion…”

This happened some time between the years of 1783 and 1788, though it doesnt say the exact year.

not that it makes any difference, but is this not just an application of the Constitution in Virginia at the time? Or am i speaking out of ignorance?

@yourbuttocks:

@FinsterniS:

In fact they do not even use survey… i think the “germany” case is a good argument.

How do you know that the CIA does not use census? What else would they use?

How do you know Germany stats better than CIA?

You got lost somewhere, the stats bout germany IS BY THE CIA

@FinsterniS:

SOFRES; that is an agencies that make survey. I do not say they are right, just less wrong than the CIA. Because they base their statistic on survey. We are speaking about OPINION, only survey can be of any interest on that. The CIA does not care about opinion, they don’t have time to loose with that, they just take general statistic about how people are born. Because i am, statisticly, as much christian as you are.

Look at germany in the CIA statistic…

Protestant 38%, Roman Catholic 34%, Muslim 1.7%, unaffiliated or other 26.3%…

Why so much unaffiliated in Germany ? Because germany is more atheist than France (in reality it is similar)? More religious diversity ?

Nein, that is because the CIA does not care about survey, they just look how people are born, and in east germany some are born atheist because of the communist, that is why there is more Unaffiliated in germany.

Exactly my point. Germany took the full brunt of the protestant reformation, and the ensuing religious wars. Bismarck tried to crush the Catholic Church in Germany. Germany was dominated for decades by the Nazis and later East Germany was owned by the Communists. And Germany is still 1/3 Catholic after all that.

Now look at France. France has gotten off easy as too factors which would suppress Catholicism. The Catholic pouplace rose up to fight the french revolution on more than one occaision. Napoleon even made peace with the Pope, whom he hated, becasue France is so Catholic. In fact they rose up when he had the Pope beaten and imprisoned.

That is why France is more CAtholic than Germany.

i’d always thought of Germany as being protestant (Luthren)/reformed (zwingli and other Dutch and Swiss reformers) far more than being Catholic. That doesn’t make sense to me. Although i see Europe as becoming less and less Catholic as “tradition” is being cast off, and (some) people start trying to make their own way.

South Germany is generally Catholic (Lichtenstein, Bavaria, Austria) while North Germany (Prussia) is generally Protestant.

Historicly you are right YB, but you are thinking like an american, french are not like that, they change very fast, maybe too fast sometime… France was really catholic not so long ago, but it is not the case now. We have no strong Catholic/Christian party, and if the stat said only 12% catholic it is becaue of an exageration of Agnostic, certainly due to the question… At the limit, an agnostic can be consider someone that is not sure. But as always i will argue your Statistics is invalid because there is no survey, and that is for that reason Germany get so much “Unnafiliated”, not because the communist convert a lot of people, (sure they did but not that much) but because the statistic only consider how people are born, i can assure you christianism is stronger in Germany than in France.

I am sure that i you had visit france you would understand how religion is weak. Church are never full, priest are getting really old and our politician never finish their speach with “que dieu bénisse la France”. As CC said, the “old world” start to let down tradition in general, after the WWII there was a renew in Europe.