Seperation of Church and State

[Mr Ghoul]

@yourbuttocks:

So Mr. Ghoul, the CIA is part of a conspiracy to convince the world that France is mostly Catholic? Just because you disagree with something does not make it not true Mr. Ghoul. Fisternis should have taught you that by now.

It looks like Fisternis is representative of the vocal fraction of French society.

The French Republic is a secular state where all religious faiths and denominations are represented.

-source: http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/venir/voicilafrance/gb/page03.html#01

Notice it is a French site. lol

YB, my rant was not just directed at you.
Posting imforation from one website that shares your opinions doesn’t make your points right either.

For every website that claims one thing I can find some website that claims other.

Mutliple sources at give you a better general idea of what is or isnt fact/right.

I dont know where your CIA comment comes from or what lead you to that thought.

Another example of you not thinking very hard before you type something.

[cystic crypt]

if i may, this is an odd series. Arguing how much of France is catholic, etc.
Let’s say it was 100 - 0.00001% catholic. Would it be right to have inclusion between church and state? If it were 0.00001% Catholic then would Catholics have any rights, or deserve freedom of religious expression?
Do FinsterniS’ data mean that France is more “scientific” than North America, or just that it doesn’t really care or think about spiritual matters?
Does North America’s Christian stats mean that it is not as scientific (yeah right - just look at La Jolla, John’s Hopkins, MIT etc, never mind Canadian ivy leagues) or that they are more willing to consider things outside of the measurable physical realm?
And does America’s high “deist” rate give the people authority to submit a Christian mandate to their leaders? (stupid as Bush might be?)

[FinsterniS]

I will note that i never make any interpretation, too dangerous.

[yourbuttocks]

To clear up a couple of points I was trying to make:

First, what I was saying is that what reason would the CIA have to lie? Plus, it is the one of the world’s foremost intelligence gathering organizations, why would French census data be beyond it’s reach?

Second, every French site I consulted refused to list census details on religious breakdown.

Third, Budhists and Agnostics, and etc. were included in breakdown, its just that they were lumped together in a 6% category.

Fourth, your data, Fisternis appears to be from some sort of magazine survey/phone survey, rather than a government census, which my data obtensibly claims to be. Plus, we cannot independently verify it like you can my statistics.

[Guest]

@yourbuttocks:

To clear up a couple of points I was trying to make:

First, what I was saying is that what reason would the CIA have to lie? Plus, it is the one of the world’s foremost intelligence gathering organizations, why would French census data be beyond it’s reach?

The CIA has the same reason to lie (if not more) than any french site.
Public information of the CIA is (if they are a good angency) half true (to keep ppl not suspecting) and half false (to let them think what they want / if they are enemies who look, to misinform them).
Therefore an Intelligence Agency usually has more reason to lie than any other “offical” sites.

So, why did you “lol” at Finsternis quoting a french site???

[FinsterniS]

I am happy you use argument and not insult this time…

SOFRES; that is an agencies that make survey. I do not say they are right, just less wrong than the CIA. Because they base their statistic on survey. We are speaking about OPINION, only survey can be of any interest on that. The CIA does not care about opinion, they don’t have time to loose with that, they just take general statistic about how people are born. Because i am, statisticly, as much christian as you are.

Look at germany in the CIA statistic…

Protestant 38%, Roman Catholic 34%, Muslim 1.7%, unaffiliated or other 26.3%…

Why so much unaffiliated in Germany ? Because germany is more atheist than France (in reality it is similar)? More religious diversity ?

Nein, that is because the CIA does not care about survey, they just look how people are born, and in east germany some are born atheist because of the communist, that is why there is more Unaffiliated in germany.

Also WHY, why you want me so much to be burned ? I am not starting any topic each time i make an argument that i consider good. Is that just because i am a strong atheist ? (just a question). If that is the case i can understand; we are opposite, and i am not gentle with religion.

[Yanny]

Fin is correct, the CIA does not go around asking people, they go by Censuses and projected birth rates. It explains the low number of Athiests and Agnostics in America. For example, in that ‘survey’ I would be Roman Catholic. I am agnostic. Therefore, the CIA information is inaccurate.

But I still don’t believe France is 38 percent Agnostic and 17 percent Buddist.

[yourbuttocks]

First, government censuses are conducted by sending pieces of paper to people and they fill them out and check what their income, race, religion, etc. You Fisternis, would be Atheist/Non-Aligned/Other because you would check that box.

Second, the French institute of statistics refused to give me the breakdown, so I had to go with multiple sources which agreed with each other, even if they unfortunately are not French.

Third, what the hell is your conspiracy theories about the CIA? Why would it try to fool the American public into believing that France is mostly Catholic? Why would the French census be beyond it’s grasp (even if it is beyond mine)?

Four, I start topics every time I think I have something interesting to talk about (like global warming)

Five, I am trying to point that France is mostly Catholic because you keep tagging America as some kind of fundamentalist state when in reality we have a higher percentage of non-christians/non-aligned

[TG Moses VI]

“Third, what the hell is your conspiracy theories about the CIA? Why would it try to fool the American public into believing that France is mostly Catholic? Why would the French census be beyond it’s grasp (even if it is beyond mine)?”

Evil government plot by CIA to take over France by exploiting religious preference (Catholic in this case) – only reasonable explanation.

For Example:
French Fries come from France
French Fries are Yummy
French Fries go good with Ketchup
Ketchup comes from America (or at least I think)
Therefore, it is in my best interest to annex France. :roll:

[cystic crypt]

@TG:

“Third, what the hell is your conspiracy theories about the CIA? Why would it try to fool the American public into believing that France is mostly Catholic? Why would the French census be beyond it’s grasp (even if it is beyond mine)?”

Evil government plot by CIA to take over France by exploiting religious preference (Catholic in this case) – only reasonable explanation.

For Example:
French Fries come from France
French Fries are Yummy
French Fries go good with Ketchup
Ketchup comes from America (or at least I think)
Therefore, it is in my best interest to annex France. :roll:

yeah, but Frenchmen come from France . . . .

[FinsterniS]

bah, that’s futile, you did’nt even answer my “germany” argument…

[Yanny]

I am not saying its a conspiracy inside the CIA, I’m just saying they are incorrect. They do not use direct French Surveys for this. They look at past censuses, and add in the average birth rate. This does not account for people converting, giving up their religion, or not being the religion of their Parents.

Fin, how often do censuses occur in France?

[yourbuttocks]

How much can the religious affiliations shift in what, five years?

[FinsterniS]

I am not saying its a conspiracy inside the CIA, I’m just saying they are incorrect. They do not use direct French Surveys for this. They look at past censuses, and add in the average birth rate. This does not account for people converting, giving up their religion, or not being the religion of their Parents.

In fact they do not even use survey… i think the “germany” case is a good argument.

Fin, how often do censuses occur in France?

I don’t know

[yourbuttocks]

@FinsterniS:

In fact they do not even use survey… i think the “germany” case is a good argument.

How do you know that the CIA does not use census? What else would they use?

How do you know Germany stats better than CIA?

[Yanny]

Ha! I have found proof to deny your statement of saying “The Constitution’s laws against Religions were ment to stop a Church of England law”

Source: Book “Liberty, The American Revolution” Page 351, Last Paragraph.

“In Virginia, the Church petitioned Congress for a bill of new laws based on the Christian Religion…”, then later that paragraph “… The Congress unanimously voted against any laws based on the Christian Religion…”

This happened some time between the years of 1783 and 1788, though it doesnt say the exact year.

[cystic crypt]

@Yanny:

Ha! I have found proof to deny your statement of saying “The Constitution’s laws against Religions were ment to stop a Church of England law”

Source: Book “Liberty, The American Revolution” Page 351, Last Paragraph.

“In Virginia, the Church petitioned Congress for a bill of new laws based on the Christian Religion…”, then later that paragraph “… The Congress unanimously voted against any laws based on the Christian Religion…”

This happened some time between the years of 1783 and 1788, though it doesnt say the exact year.

not that it makes any difference, but is this not just an application of the Constitution in Virginia at the time? Or am i speaking out of ignorance?

[Yanny]

At the Time, Virginia was the largest state, and had quite a bit of influence in Congress. After Years of the Articles of Confederation not working, and Congress not doing anything, Virginia started the process of a new Constitution with this proposal.

[FinsterniS]

@yourbuttocks:

@FinsterniS:

In fact they do not even use survey… i think the “germany” case is a good argument.

How do you know that the CIA does not use census? What else would they use?

How do you know Germany stats better than CIA?

You got lost somewhere, the stats bout germany IS BY THE CIA

@FinsterniS:

SOFRES; that is an agencies that make survey. I do not say they are right, just less wrong than the CIA. Because they base their statistic on survey. We are speaking about OPINION, only survey can be of any interest on that. The CIA does not care about opinion, they don’t have time to loose with that, they just take general statistic about how people are born. Because i am, statisticly, as much christian as you are.

Look at germany in the CIA statistic…

Protestant 38%, Roman Catholic 34%, Muslim 1.7%, unaffiliated or other 26.3%…

Why so much unaffiliated in Germany ? Because germany is more atheist than France (in reality it is similar)? More religious diversity ?

Nein, that is because the CIA does not care about survey, they just look how people are born, and in east germany some are born atheist because of the communist, that is why there is more Unaffiliated in germany.

[yourbuttocks]

Exactly my point. Germany took the full brunt of the protestant reformation, and the ensuing religious wars. Bismarck tried to crush the Catholic Church in Germany. Germany was dominated for decades by the Nazis and later East Germany was owned by the Communists. And Germany is still 1/3 Catholic after all that.

Now look at France. France has gotten off easy as too factors which would suppress Catholicism. The Catholic pouplace rose up to fight the french revolution on more than one occaision. Napoleon even made peace with the Pope, whom he hated, becasue France is so Catholic. In fact they rose up when he had the Pope beaten and imprisoned.

That is why France is more CAtholic than Germany.