Cruiser Rework

[baron Münchhausen]

I have a question on shore bombardment and blockers, like DD.
Is it a game breaker to allow surviving BB and Cruiser their one shot bombardment after a naval combat during the amphibious assault that follow?

It is a single roll per ship, after all.
A player turn is around 3 to 6 months time lapse.
These warships can sail and chew gums altogether in a 6 months turn.

I asked because I played long ago an A&A variant from Classic game, which have both Cruiser and BB the ability to do so.

It never appeared too much IMO.

[ampdrive]

I 'd like to see them move 3 and be able to non-combat move after combat (like aircraft)

[baron Münchhausen]

@taamvan:

This tourney finally convinced me of why BBs are worthy units for the AxA game.  The basic analysis is that 2 fighters and a carrier give you more shots, more defense, more flexibility, more threat projection than either DDs or BBs, and therefore they are the bread and butter of your navy.

This is really, really true from a pure odds viewpoint.   However, the problem is that the DD and BB both play different roles.  The DD is too expensive to be the “infantry of the sea”.  Really, its role is to be a blocker/screener (and to counter subs).  In this capacity, I recommend buying 1 per turn in both G40 and G42 as Japan and at least 1 as Germany.  If you are not sure how you will use that DD during the game, it will often become obvious why when you do not have one placed well before you needed it.

The BB really shines somewhere else;  when you have plenty of $$, but only limited production spaces to create new units.   This is the most powerful use of the BB I have found; to advance place them late game at an MiC or when you’ve been bombed.   They are pretty much worse all around than buying carriers, odds wise, on attack or defense, because buying one big BB only lets you roll the dice 1 time per round.   The other big benefit is unlike a carrier, when they take a hit, there are no drawbacks.

Usually, a carrier is better than an Airbase.  they costs about the same, the carrier deploys 1 fewer plane, but it allows you to mobilize your defensive power and adsorbs same number of hits as destroyers do and the same cost.

The Airbase cant’ be sunk, and it can freely use your allies’ planes, so those are benefits.   the carrier, in my opinion, is almost always the better choice than the airbase (or the battleship) unless you are planning something sneaky (often, these bases are only used once per game because they really make a difference at that one time).

The Cruiser is then, even worse than all of these options.   It gets shredded by subs so if you are facing even a single enemy sub it would be better to have bought or kept a single DD in just one of your key fleets than have a Cruiser anywhere on the board.  A strat bomber is the same price but much, much better threat projection.   The support shot is really interesting, but it is extremely easy to block, and since it only goes 1 time, it only really shines when it is supporting a lone transport who needs just 1 punch to kill the defenders.  Finally, with a 3 attack 3 defense (and vulnerable to subs) it cannot usually be relied upon to defend any fleet node by itself and so you will have to stack it with other ships, which tends to negate the independent power of the cruiser.

Several times I lost a cruiser in the first casualty round in last four games, and kept a sub instead;  later when the subs acted I killed 2 tipped BBs and got a first strike retal on another cruiser…

[Young Grasshopper]

If Crusiers had the opportunity to attack blockers in a new phase prior to the combat movement phase, I think they would be purchased more. It’s like a blitz ability for the trailing ships, but the Crusiers must stay where they attacked first.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Young:

If Cruisers had the opportunity to attack blockers in a new phase prior to the combat movement phase, I think they would be purchased more. It’s like a blitz ability for the trailing ships, but the Crusiers must stay where they attacked first.

I like this idea because it emphasizes some kind of special movement capacity.
It is consistent with a full M3 move, M4 with Naval Base bonus.
Both could be given to Cruiser.
In addition, Cruiser can be able to do both Combat Move and Non-combat move.
So, after taking care of blocker, it can move up to the remaining move points left to reach its naval group during noncombat phase.
This would be similar to plane movement.

[Young Grasshopper]

@Baron:

@Young:

If Cruisers had the opportunity to attack blockers in a new phase prior to the combat movement phase, I think they would be purchased more. It’s like a blitz ability for the trailing ships, but the Crusiers must stay where they attacked first.

I like this idea because it emphasizes some kind of special movement capacity.
It is consistent with a full M3 move, M4 with Naval Base bonus.
Both could be given to Cruiser.
In addition, Cruiser can be able to do both Combat Move and Non-combat move.
So, after taking care of blocker, it can move up to the remaining move points left to reach its naval group during noncombat phase.
This would be similar to plane movement.

I would introduce a “Reconnaissance Phase” in which Cruisers (and only cruisers) can attack before the combat movement phase. Each cruiser that attacks during the reconnaissance phase, may not attack during the combat movement phase. Also, I would not allow them to move during the non combat movement phase if they attacked during the reconnaissance phase, that would make blockers obsolete IMO.

[Faramir]

If you wanted to make them a more attractive purchase without altering the game rules too much, give them a move of 3 with or without a naval base and a cost of 10.

[ausf]

My son and I just finished a game of Global over 3 days and used Cruisers with AA@2. It really added a dimension and raised their use greatly.

I used them as the UK guarding transports from the Luftwaffe in the Channel and he used them as a deterrent against US air in the Pacific. We’ll keep using the rule since it forced more decisions and while it seemed maybe too powerful, having fleet protection from aircraft was nice.

We’re thinking on adding it both ways too. We played it as a defensive capability only, but think it should apply to all AC used, even if you’re attacking and your opponent is scrambling or using carrier AC.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Faramir:

If you wanted to make them a more attractive purchase without altering the game rules too much, give them a move of 3 with or without a naval base and a cost of 10.

In such case, do you know if battleship is still a relevant purchase?

[baron Münchhausen]

@ausf:

My son and I just finished a game of Global over 3 days and used Cruisers with AA@2. It really added a dimension and raised their use greatly.

I used them as the UK guarding transports from the Luftwaffe in the Channel and he used them as a deterrent against US air in the Pacific. We’ll keep using the rule since it forced more decisions and while it seemed maybe too powerful, having fleet protection from aircraft was nice.

We’re thinking on adding it both ways too. We played it as a defensive capability only, but think it should apply to all AC used, even if you’re attacking and your opponent is scrambling or using carrier AC.

It appears too overpowered.
Do you think if cruiser get same ability as AAA (@1 first strike vs up to 3 planes), you would have a similar game experience?

[baron Münchhausen]

@Young:

@Baron:

@Young:

If Cruisers had the opportunity to attack blockers in a new phase prior to the combat movement phase, I think they would be purchased more. It’s like a blitz ability for the trailing ships, but the Crusiers must stay where they attacked first.

I like this idea because it emphasizes some kind of special movement capacity.
It is consistent with a full M3 move, M4 with Naval Base bonus.
Both could be given to Cruiser.
In addition, Cruiser can be able to do both Combat Move and Non-combat move.
So, after taking care of blocker, it can move up to the remaining move points left to reach its naval group during noncombat phase.
This would be similar to plane movement.

I would introduce a “Reconnaissance Phase” in which Cruisers (and only cruisers) can attack before the combat movement phase. Each cruiser that attacks during the reconnaissance phase, may not attack during the combat movement phase. Also, I would not allow them to move during the non combat movement phase if they attacked during the reconnaissance phase, that would make blockers obsolete IMO.

I like recon phase for Cruiser.
But I don’t see why allowing Cruiser a NCM up to its move allowance remaining would make blocker obsolete.
A DD worth 8 IPCs, and get at least 1 shot @2 against a 12 IPCs CA.
Cruiser remains unoptimized purchase on pure combat value basis.
Large fleet playing cat and mouse will still put blockers. No?

[ausf]

@Baron:

@ausf:

My son and I just finished a game of Global over 3 days and used Cruisers with AA@2. It really added a dimension and raised their use greatly.

I used them as the UK guarding transports from the Luftwaffe in the Channel and he used them as a deterrent against US air in the Pacific. We’ll keep using the rule since it forced more decisions and while it seemed maybe too powerful, having fleet protection from aircraft was nice.

We’re thinking on adding it both ways too. We played it as a defensive capability only, but think it should apply to all AC used, even if you’re attacking and your opponent is scrambling or using carrier AC.

It appears too overpowered.
Do you think if cruiser get same ability as AAA (@1 first strike vs up to 3 planes), you would have a similar game experience?

Rereading my post, I presented it wrong, I meant AA up to 2 units, but only hits on 1, not 2.

[baron Münchhausen]

In that case, it is a fine way to incente more cruiser purchase.
I played once with attacking AA cruiser, it was not OP.
But I just found this strange that a boat directly hit planes while Fgs could not.