@barnee thanks heaps!
Keep the Germans out of Moscow
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Thanks SubmergedElk, your “5 powers” post up above seems to match my most recent thinking. �  We played Game 93 last weekend (G42) and it doesn’t really matter whether you use the G40 or G42 set up, the Pacific considerations are the same.
KGF seems very limiting to me, as going “strong Atlantic” cannot do anything (offensive or defensive) until turns 4/5, and it does very little to alter Germany’s strategic planning or reduce their income. �  Even though there are 6 Atlantic Wall/Italy territories, its very cheap to defend them with stacks of infantry and counterattackers, and they are very hard to hold for the Allies, very close together, and not worth much. �  Knocking Italy down seems like a good idea, but it is very easy for Germany to supplement their defenses if necessary, and I’ve seen several games where an Italy doing well contributed both a mobile lance to Barbarossa and was about 80% of the Atlantic wall defenses. �  Blocking SZ92 with one ship delays a med attack by another turn, and is very easy for the axis to do. �  � Since the US invasion is a one-shot, once they show you where they are going to drop it, you can consolidate all your other stacks. �
The only exception to the above is taking Norway, especially if you can take it or Finland (and/or Iraq) with Russian pieces, but if you go that direction you’re spending most of UK-Eur and Us effort on getting up there, and no earlier than turn 6. � Losing Africa means nothing to the Axis, its a sideshow.
I really kind of disagree that you ever have to “play catch up” in the atlantic. �  Game 93(G42) the Americans had a massive navy and went 80% Atlantic, but they still had to skirt around my wall and ended up invading through the Balkans (and Turkey lol–far more effective than I could have imagined). � Because Japan was able to defeat a few of the American fleets in the Pacific, they ended up having to reverse and build in the Pacific anyway. Taking Italy away from me wouldn’t have done much, and at that point I had control of Leningrad, so the fact that Germany was now facing the Red Army, UK and America wasn’t that big of a deal defensively (and G42 is much more defensive/Germany than G40. � Germany begins on the defense in G42.)
I’m thinking my next Pacific strategy will be to stack Russia in Amur, try for a UK DoW and Yunnan link up, and add the spoiling forces around the islands that you mention, and go 100% Pacific with the US for 5 turns. �  If Japan tries to step out of its “1 turn from Sz6” alignment", they are in grave danger.
The only exception is that you have to leave some forces on the eastern US to dissuade Italy/Germany from attacking or threatening it because you’ve sent everything West, but that could amount to like 4-6 men and one DD.
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Another side point is that you have to build an invasion force with transports and men in the Atlantic–whereas in the Pacific you can do almost all combat ships. My reasoning here is that you goal is not going to be to invade Japan itself, this is both impossible and futile because Japan is so easy to defend and has so many planes and kamis. Your goal is to invade Korea instead after wrecking the Japanese fleet and preventing it from forming up on SZ 6 again. Once you own SZ6, they have no economy left and no where to place substantial forces. Unlike Germany, they don’t have 2 MajICs.
I realize that you are supposed to eventually take Tokyo, but it surrenders before it is conquered in nearly every game, since the only way you could win the invasion is by chopping their fleet down first.
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Also keep in mind any ships you buy in Western US can be off Gibraltar 2 turns later, so US1 Pac buy can be there in US3. If the US fleet isn’t going to be hitting Gibraltar until US4, then first 2 turns can have Pac buys that arrive in the same place at the same time as Atlantic builds from one turn later. If that arrival at Gibraltar is in turn 4, the initial fleet in US1 can be moved to/toward Hawaii entirely as if doing a Pac buildup, only to reverse course and hit Gibraltar with the loaded Atlantic transports built in US2 and US3.
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Well, I don’t think the 10 tanks will get you there. 10 artillerie and 5 mech are far more efficient in my view. Russia doesn’t even come close to preventing the Germans from taking their border territories or Leningrad. And if Germany keeps Norway, it has the extra bonus…
I always follow the Ermattungstrategie instead of a Vernichtingsstrategie. That way you are stronger in the long run. If the Russians cannot get you out of Russia and you are getting to Bryansk slowly, they will eventually lose. The Germans have more units to start with, and only have to match the Russians in productivity.
Actually Germany can start in G2, but I attack in G3 in this scenario (US 100% Atlantic).
The Germans will be above 60 IPC, and the Russians will be under 25 IPC (and under 20 IPC if the US only buys in the Atlantic: Japan will take the Far East).
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Actually Germany can move in with about 20 units on G2, and Germany is always happy to exchange units with Russia (Russia risks losing a fighter as well)!
But I said I would move in on G3.
On G3 I move in with 46 units! Are the Russians going to attack those? With what? Please let me know, because I would like to defeat the German army for the first time in the games I have played. And if you take Persia those units will not be on time to help either…
After the artillerie buy in G2, I buy mostly mech’s with Germany, and some tanks if I have the IPC’s (depending on the allies’ moves). Never infantry or artillerie after G2. So if your buying fast units first and later slow units, I will be quicker in Moscow.
Do you buy IC’s in Russia, later in the game? I always do…
Thanks for the arguments!
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No I take Yugoslavia, France and Normandy the first round, and I have calculated the losses…
If you attack with 45 Russian units, you will lose more then the Germans: Germany takes Moscow with ease! That’s a horrible trade-off for Russia especially because of there weak offensive power.
Even if the Russians attack with 50, the trade-off is not favorable for Russia. I think the both lose the numbers, perhaps the Germans even win this battle (Russia has to many infantry and mech’s, almost no artillery)…
The Germans have more in behind too: 25 units (10 artillerie, 10 mech’s (bought), 3 tanks and 2 mech’s (from France)). How many will Russia have? And they have to buy in Moscow…
This way Russia is sure to fall!
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Nice back-n-forth debate, I’m enjoying it.
Like to add that we have been doing a G2 Barbarossa, and it has been very effective. We have been doing somewhat of a dark sky’s (early heavy German bmr buys) with a pretty devastating J1 (see later). In the last game the Germans didn’t attack Yugo G1, he used the Bulgarians to do it G2. Theory was he generally loses a couple guys in that battle, and he wanted to have more inf at the front. This helps to deter a Russian strafe on your stack, and the Bulgarians are going to be a round behind you anyway. We have found that if the the Germans supper stack they have enough starting units to push the Russians back (Italian mobile units are helpful), and you can get to both Leningrad and Ukraine w/o much of a fight. You will force some tough decisions on the Russians because with the G2 attack you have enough starting units to go straight to Moscow (if they don’t get help). Even with say 4-5 UK air units there, odds will favor Germany slightly (keeping in mind the Luftwaffe is doubled in size by then, and bmr heavy). It’s not in Germany’s best interest to hit Moscow at that time because it will cut them deeply (but it is a real threat). After that you add a minor IC on E Ukraine and start pumping out units on Russian soil from several ICs to finish the job and the Russians are somewhat contained. The Bmrs can pull double duty from West Germany, keeping the allies at bay, and still threaten to hit Moscow. As the Germans you aren’t really looking to destroy the Allied fleet unless they seriously under build, you can double hit using Italy, or you can incorporate navy/subs (to costly, and the allies know that). Instead you set-up to kill the landing party using ground units in key areas (including transports if they go north) with an over powering Luftwaffe.
Our J1 attack is hitting both Phil and Hawaiian fleets (6 US ships sunk+Phil ftr) along with the early heavy investment in German bmrs (and some navy) is causing a lot of problems for the US. Although they are unleashed on the first turn they are finding it difficult to compete with Japan and/or go to Europe. It is up to UK to stall the Germans while the US figures out what the hell they are doing. Next time I’m allies I will look at sending the Russian mob to Amur to see what the Japanese do. It would defiantly put a thorn in their J1 attack so……like I said it is still a work in progress with us.
Just thought I would toss this into your discussion. We are still looking at the above situation over the last few games, but the allies haven’t been able to do much in response.
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That way to few! Russia starts with just 3 artillery. You buy 4, that makes only a puny 7. Russia has 25 infantry at the start and 2 mech + 2 tanks (wich are neede in Persia?). You need at least 15-20 artillery to match the firepower of the German army.
Attack Eastern Poland? You have lost me, Russia cannot attack until round 4, if the Germans don’t attack…
Buying mobile units doesn’t make them stronger, but weaker in my view. You have to make stronger arguments then this. When and where is Russia going to stop the Germans? And with how many units?
I’m testplaying now and I played the game a couple of times, and Germany never failed to at least reach Bryansk in G7-8.
Would you care for a game sometimes? And by what rules do you play?
Again, thanks for the arguments!
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I live in The Netherlands, so that won’t be a problem…
When do you have time? I don’t mind making it a slow game, where we play for an hour every day. Or we could just play a few hours in the weekends…
I am curious about your move with the allies, so can I play axis? And what rules do you play by?
About the dice, we play with only one dice. The rest is by calculation: if you attack for example with 20 infantry and 10 tanks:
20 X 1 = 20
10 X 3 = 30Total = 50 / 6 = 8 hits (6 X 8 = 48)
2 left, so you throw with one dice: 2 or less is a 9th hit…This way you rule out luck, especially in big battles…
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Keep us updated on the game!
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I live in The Netherlands, so that won’t be a problem…
When do you have time? I don’t mind making it a slow game, where we play for an hour every day. Or we could just play a few hours in the weekends…
I am curious about your move with the allies, so can I play axis? And what rules do you play by?
About the dice, we play with only one dice. The rest is by calculation: if you attack for example with 20 infantry and 10 tanks:
20 X 1 = 20
10 X 3 = 30Total = 50 / 6 = 8 hits (6 X 8 = 48)
2 left, so you throw with one dice: 2 or less is a 9th hit…This way you rule out luck, especially in big battles…
Yes this is Low Luck variant, it works perfectly with TripleA it is a build in option for the game.
No tech ( lets keep luck out of this as much as possible )Yes ill play allies, we are just determining how bad it is for the allies, everybody is yelling they are screwed and need a 20+ bid so we just go without 1 and see how far we get :)
Great same timezone, Im normaly free in the evening during the week, so around 19:00 ish. WE can spread it over several days.
Okay, great! Can you start tomorrow? I’ve appointment on 15.00. I hope I will be home by 19.00. Or else Tuesday?
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but did you get the counterattack in East poland? How about advancing with the US fleet?
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It is possible for the Russians to attack Estern Poland, but you have to buy mech units and tanks, and perhaps a TB. Very curious to know how such a game would end, but I don’t think it would be favorable for the Russians to trade their army for a German army. Because unlike WW2, the Germans can make new ones…
ShadowHawk showed me many new (to me) and good tactical moves, so it was an interesting game to me.
Unfortunately I made too many mistakes with Japan on J3 to have a realistic game (lost many infantry because I forgot to use my figthers). Also I am not used to playing online, so it takes an hour to do one turn with Japan.
But I am practicing now… :D
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It is possible for the Russians to attack Estern Poland, but you have to buy mech units and tanks, and perhaps a TB. Very curious to know how such a game would end, but I don’t think it would be favorable for the Russians to trade their army for a German army. Because unlike WW2, the Germans can make new ones…
ShadowHawk showed me many new (to me) and good tactical moves, so it was an interesting game to me.
Unfortunately I made too many mistakes with Japan on J3 to have a realistic game (lost many infantry because I forgot to use my figthers). Also I am not used to playing online, so it takes an hour to do one turn with Japan.
But I am practicing now… :D
Playing online is tough for me as well. I need to see the whole board or I’m lost.
I only see a mutual annihilation as good for Russia if the US and UK are in Western Europe
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