Germany's fate in Japan's hands?

[Young Grasshopper]

@ItIsILeClerc:

Greetings YG, here’s what I think you can do with Germany and Japan if your allied group comes at your Germany like you described:

Long story short: the axis can play an economic game.

Japan: Can do what it wants. Grow as fast and as hard as possible. Aim to get their income to >>90IPCs per turn while the USA is paying less attention to you. You don’t need to capture 6VC’s, but you should do if you can. Main priorities are to increase your economy + kill allied economy (i.e. kill China, Isolate/take Calcutta, take everything east and north of Calcutta (including Russian territories), don’t build too much mIC in Asia, deny ANZAC NO’s and convoy ANZAC base income). Depending on how and when the USA turns its attention back towards you, Japan should either play to take Hawaii/Sydney or ME/South Africa (and up from there) or simply to deny the allies to take back what you took.

Germany: Play to hold out against the USA + UK, while ever (but slowly) increasing your economy by destroying Russia’s completely (work together with Japan and be aware it means ~12 turns of play to get there). Leave the allied fleet be and position a very strong counterattack force in West Germany and another one in Finland. Axis Luftwaffe should be based so that it can reach Norway, Normandy, Southern France, etc. All the places the Wallies could invade…
Germany must build a LOT of land units to be able to do this but it is possible to ever grow the German economy while destroying the Russian and hold out against the Wallies.

With this strategy, it is very easy for the USA to overdo its attempt to kill Germany, making it impossible for the allies to stop Japan from taking Hawaii. If the USA however recognizes the Japanese threat, they are forced to let their investments into Europe run dry and turn their attention back towards Japan. That is what Germany has been waiting for: now they can once again focus on Russia and without any further possible (meaningful) USA investments in Europe, Staling will have to flee Moscow.

The axis will have a very good chance to get their economy stronger than that of the allies while also denying them an opportunity to restore balance. After the first ~12 turns or so, the axis partner that gets the least resistance should move slowly towards even more economic gain or the winning VC (Moscow for Germany, outer defense perimeter/Alaska/ME/SA/Hawaii/Sydney for Japan).
An alternative is to march the German army into Calcutta and use the full Japanese economic might to usurp Hawaii at the same time (close coordination with Germany taking Calcutta). Japan must still isolate India Asap for this.

Alas if your buddy Japan cannot hold out if the USA has first focussed on Europe first 4 rounds…

Great advise, conservative aggression right?.. what round should I start taking away Russian territories… G2?..G3?

[innocentbystander]

@Young:

I will be playing Germany in a group game soon, and I know that the Allies will come at me hard the first 4 rounds no matter what Japan does. If Japan can’t take advantage of their free time and space to get rich as well as take Calcutta, my fate will be sealed… does anyone else feel this way when playing Germany in a group game?

I would yell at my Japanese ally by J-2.  It can’t ALL be on you.

[drummerinheat]

Perhaps focus Germany and Italy 100% together.  Both go for the exact objective and don’t separate objectives.

Options could be:
1. Take Gibraltar and close med. then focus on Africa/Mid East
2. Focus everything on Russia.  Forget about Africa.  Purchase Tank/Mech with Italy and mass a mini Southern Army to work away at Ukraine’s etc with can openers

The only difficult thing is helping Italy get it’s NO’s.  Hard to abandon that stuff when there’s 15 IPCs at stake in just the Med alone.

I always hope for the allies to force early decisions on me as the Euro axis, that way I can commit to something new rather than traditional “tried and true” battle plans.  It makes things interesting and difficult.

[ItIsILeClerc]

@Young:

@ItIsILeClerc:

Greetings YG, here’s what I think you can do with Germany and Japan if your allied group comes at your Germany like you described:

Long story short: the axis can play an economic game.

Japan: Can do what it wants. Grow as fast and as hard as possible. Aim to get their income to >>90IPCs per turn while the USA is paying less attention to you. You don’t need to capture 6VC’s, but you should do if you can. Main priorities are to increase your economy + kill allied economy (i.e. kill China, Isolate/take Calcutta, take everything east and north of Calcutta (including Russian territories), don’t build too much mIC in Asia, deny ANZAC NO’s and convoy ANZAC base income). Depending on how and when the USA turns its attention back towards you, Japan should either play to take Hawaii/Sydney or ME/South Africa (and up from there) or simply to deny the allies to take back what you took.

Germany: Play to hold out against the USA + UK, while ever (but slowly) increasing your economy by destroying Russia’s completely (work together with Japan and be aware it means ~12 turns of play to get there). Leave the allied fleet be and position a very strong counterattack force in West Germany and another one in Finland. Axis Luftwaffe should be based so that it can reach Norway, Normandy, Southern France, etc. All the places the Wallies could invade…
Germany must build a LOT of land units to be able to do this but it is possible to ever grow the German economy while destroying the Russian and hold out against the Wallies.

With this strategy, it is very easy for the USA to overdo its attempt to kill Germany, making it impossible for the allies to stop Japan from taking Hawaii. If the USA however recognizes the Japanese threat, they are forced to let their investments into Europe run dry and turn their attention back towards Japan. That is what Germany has been waiting for: now they can once again focus on Russia and without any further possible (meaningful) USA investments in Europe, Staling will have to flee Moscow.

The axis will have a very good chance to get their economy stronger than that of the allies while also denying them an opportunity to restore balance. After the first ~12 turns or so, the axis partner that gets the least resistance should move slowly towards even more economic gain or the winning VC (Moscow for Germany, outer defense perimeter/Alaska/ME/SA/Hawaii/Sydney for Japan).
An alternative is to march the German army into Calcutta and use the full Japanese economic might to usurp Hawaii at the same time (close coordination with Germany taking Calcutta). Japan must still isolate India Asap for this.

Alas if your buddy Japan cannot hold out if the USA has first focussed on Europe first 4 rounds…

Great advise, conservative aggression right?.. what round should I start taking away Russian territories… G2?..G3?

I don’t think it matters much, YG. As long as Germany sinks the RN and takes Paris in force.

I think any DOW-scheme should work for the axis, as they try to use time to their advantage. Only scheme I am not sure about is a G1JX though…
As long as both axis players are aware that they must grab economy during the first 12 turns, not necessarily VCs. I could point out areas of interest for the axis, but let’s just say the axis should aim to get to a combined economy of >160IPCs per turn within those 12 turns. If China is dead and both Russia and India have no economy left (though they may still be alive), the allies won’t be having much more than 140IPCs a turn and the axis are most likely be doing very well.

On a sidenote:
a 4-turn focus on Europe by the USA is overdoing it. Japan should be unstoppable to get Hawaii around turn 9 or so. If Japan is not strong enough to also take Calcutta for whatever reason, Germany should probably be doing great by feighning some moves in Russia and suddenly march to take Calcutta around turn 9, even throug Afghanistan (to shorten the allied reaction-time). Maybe they can even stay in control of Berlin, though this is not necessary with a win in the Pac ;-)…

[Nippon-koku]

I agree that a 4 turn rush at Germany is too much for the US.  If you spend all of US R1 and most of R2 on the Atlantic map then you’ve done enough to combat a Sealion and make life tough for Germany.  But if they don’t refocus their efforts on the Pacific after that then I agree Japan will become too powerful to stop.

[Vanerost]

This is what happened to me in our first game yg. I just got overwhelmed and Japan just didn’t do enough. Had a timid player playing Japan so they sat and built and waited for the USA to come knocking around turn 6-7. Also just wasted money in China by not having the Burma road under control so the art units added up to a half decent defence for China. Lol it was quite epic really!

[ItIsILeClerc]

@Nippon-koku:

I agree that a 4 turn rush at Germany is too much for the US.  If you spend all of US R1 and most of R2 on the Atlantic map then you’ve done enough to combat a Sealion and make life tough for Germany.  But if they don’t refocus their efforts on the Pacific after that then I agree Japan will become too powerful to stop.

IIRC, you wrote more than once that you believe in a R1 + R2 Europe focus for the USA, with (almost) all of its income of the later turns going into the Pac. I always agreed with that strategy. As far as preventing Japan victory in the Pacific goes  :wink:.

[Nippon-koku]

Good memory! (That or I’ve said it way too many times)

Yes, I absolutely believe that a heavy US buy in the Atlantic turn 1 and 2, combined with heavy Pacific spending the rest of the way, is part of a winning formula for the Allies.

By the end of US2 the Atlantic usually looks like this if I’m playing the US:

8 loaded transports, loaded CV, DD, C (this can vary: maybe one less loaded transport and an extra CV or a couple more DD, etc.  Depends what Germany looks like).  From there I spend the rest in the pacific each turn, save for a couple of loaded transports, or men in a complex, etc.

[ghr2]

@teslas:

You don’t need to take Calcutta by any set time. All you need to do is reduce UK Pac to 5 IPCs a turn and keep them too scared to come out again. Throw a sub or two outside of Calcutta for good measure. In fact, Britain has to make a mistake to let you take Calcutta by J3, or even J4.

If US is going to go full Atlantic for four rounds, ����ing awesome. Japan should just about win the game for you, or at least be making as much money or more as the USA by J4/J5. And yes, your fate is in their hands. The only thing Germany can do under that kind of pressure is use its initial land units to get up to Novgorod (and then maybe get kicked back out), and spend everything else on defending itself from both sides. I also suggest you help out Italy, as with a good amount of support, and not getting too unlucky, Italy can make decent money and either help defend the French mICs from an invasion, or keep the southern flank of your Eastern front safe. The last thing you want are a bunch of Russians or British running unchecked through the Balkans. Italy being strong enough to help means Germany can put more force into an objective, which is a good thing.

If USA went 100% Pacific for the first four rounds, the roles would nearly be reversed. Japan would make a lot less headway after J3 while Germany would be the one making strong, consistent progress. USA gets to decide which side of the map has the Axis struggle. Thems the breaks.

Japan can set up to take India round 3 if he plays right, round 4 he can guarantee it no matter what india does.

[cyanight]

@ghr2:

@teslas:

You don’t need to take Calcutta by any set time. All you need to do is reduce UK Pac to 5 IPCs a turn and keep them too scared to come out again. Throw a sub or two outside of Calcutta for good measure. In fact, Britain has to make a mistake to let you take Calcutta by J3, or even J4.

If US is going to go full Atlantic for four rounds, ����ing awesome. Japan should just about win the game for you, or at least be making as much money or more as the USA by J4/J5. And yes, your fate is in their hands. The only thing Germany can do under that kind of pressure is use its initial land units to get up to Novgorod (and then maybe get kicked back out), and spend everything else on defending itself from both sides. I also suggest you help out Italy, as with a good amount of support, and not getting too unlucky, Italy can make decent money and either help defend the French mICs from an invasion, or keep the southern flank of your Eastern front safe. The last thing you want are a bunch of Russians or British running unchecked through the Balkans. Italy being strong enough to help means Germany can put more force into an objective, which is a good thing.

If USA went 100% Pacific for the first four rounds, the roles would nearly be reversed. Japan would make a lot less headway after J3 while Germany would be the one making strong, consistent progress. USA gets to decide which side of the map has the Axis struggle. Thems the breaks.

Japan can set up to take India round 3 if he plays right, round 4 he can guarantee it no matter what india does.

Japan has to almost have a perfect game to take India round 4 by not losing any land units on the islands and taking out ANZAC’s DD + TT round 1.  There are no guarantees in a dice game.

[madscientist]

What about Japan taking Iraq and Sikang and building an airbase in both and sending fighters to Germany if USA is going Europe heavy?

[madscientist]

If Japan isn’t going to help you, what about building 1 bmb, 1 sub and the rest inf every turn for the whole game? Use bombers and subs to slow down allied navy and inf to hold off and maybe take some of Russia.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@madscientist:

If Japan isn’t going to help you, what about building 1 bmb, 1 sub and the rest inf every turn for the whole game? Use bombers and subs to slow down allied navy and inf to hold off and maybe take some of Russia.

Inf are way too slow to fight Russia. You’re better off building mech.

[teslas]

Yes, subs and bombers are what you need to hold off America/UK as Germany. I would strongly suggest you get Southern France as Germany to be able to build some subs in the med as well.

Italy can either try to build some subs to help out with a can-opening on a Gibraltar SZ hit, or just build all the land units to defend France/Balkans from an allied landing there.

If UK/America build enough navy and support to live through an attack, well okay, that means they’re not landing very many ground troops as early as they could. You hold off Russia with the units you begin the game with plus whatever income you can spare to send east.

Again, you’re absolutely never going to win the game doing this, but you’re not expected to under this kind of pressure. That’s Japan’s job. You will be able to survive for quite a long time, however.

[Nippon-koku]

Japan has to almost have a perfect game to take India round 4 by not losing any land units on the islands and taking out ANZAC’s DD + TT round 1.  There are no guarantees in a dice game.

Exactly.  On top of that, even if Japan does take India round 4, how does it look on the rest of the board?  Japan can’t take India round 4 AND dominate the waters AND completely wipe out China AND take care of the Siberian troops (most games I’m using those units to attack Manchuria or Korea) AND completely control the money islands.

If Japan goes all out to get India by round 4 the Allies can cause them a lot of headaches elsewhere.

[Young Grasshopper]

@Nippon-koku:

Japan has to almost have a perfect game to take India round 4 by not losing any land units on the islands and taking out ANZAC’s DD + TT round 1.  There are no guarantees in a dice game.

Exactly.  On top of that, even if Japan does take India round 4, how does it look on the rest of the board?  Japan can’t take India round 4 AND dominate the waters AND completely wipe out China AND take care of the Siberian troops (most games I’m using those units to attack Manchuria or Korea) AND completely control the money islands.Â

If Japan goes all out to get India by round 4 the Allies can cause them a lot of headaches elsewhere.Â

I think new players favor the Calcutta crush, while experienced players understand other priorities.

[Nippon-koku]

@Young:

@Nippon-koku:

Japan has to almost have a perfect game to take India round 4 by not losing any land units on the islands and taking out ANZAC’s DD + TT round 1.�  There are no guarantees in a dice game.

Exactly.�  On top of that, even if Japan does take India round 4, how does it look on the rest of the board?�  Japan can’t take India round 4 AND dominate the waters AND completely wipe out China AND take care of the Siberian troops (most games I’m using those units to attack Manchuria or Korea) AND completely control the money islands.�

If Japan goes all out to get India by round 4 the Allies can cause them a lot of headaches elsewhere.�

I think new players favor the Calcutta crush, while experienced players understand other priorities.

And I’ll fully admit that Calcutta crush can appear unstoppable to new players who find themselves on the receiving end