Strategy for Japan and how long does it take to drive to moscow.

[Magister]

Some observations on the Japanese front:

• Russia can mass 10 inf in Yakut. Combined with 2 ftr threatening from Moscow, it makes impractical to even land in Buryat until J3 (when uniting with forces landed in Manchuria on J2).

• A Russian inf+ARTY mass in Novosibirsk is very effective at gaining more time, or punishing not-too-strong approaches (either from east or south).

• Is the southern approach (Indochina, India, Persia, Caucasus) viable ? I found it very hard to do together with a northern approach towards Novosibirsk. The same Russian tanks and fighters can threaten both, effectively ‘doubling’ their presence. Maybe press only the southern route ?

A steady moderate flow is possible to both routes: 4 transports, 2 are off FIC and 2 of Japan. Each turn, the FIC ones move to Japan, load and unload 4 units to Buryat; the Japan transports load 4 units and unload 4 units to FIC.

Later, after much struggle… Japan succeeded to bring the mass in Novosibirsk and have it survive. The flow of reinforcements from Japan >tra >Buryat >Yakut is very ‘inertial’ and ‘slow’ (and other routes are slower). UK and/or US sent some help to Moscow, and can send more. Now what to do to crack Moscow before Allies crack Berlin ?

• Build a factory in Novosibirsk to add 2 ARTY /turn ? The foregone income means less inf… in 4 turns !
• Swing the Japanese mass west to Kazakh then Caucasus for more local building ? Then the ‘traditional’ flow of reinforcements may get too weak to survive in Novo’ against the ever-increasing Russian mass. Essentially Japan needs then 2 defensive armies, and if they are that strong they would win anyway ;-). Or the new Novo army to be used as ‘bait’ - if Russians attack it, they weaken themselves against the Caucasus army ?

[newpaintbrush]

@rjclayton:

@newpaintbrush:

Build 3 transports and 1 tank.

Interesting.  Care to elaborate on the tank?  I never build a tank that early because I never think I need a second one that early when I have all that fighter support against very little opposition.  J2 or J3 I’ll build and IC or two and start pumping tanks (as well as building half inf/half tanks at Japan).  Do you need another tank that early, or are 2 inf better?

There are three fronts for Japan; China, Yakut, and India.  Having a tank at any or all of these locations helps you blitz, the earlier you have a tank at those fronts, the earlier you can blitz.  You won’t have fighter support early game as Japan in all likelihood, because you probably want to deal with UK  and/or US navy.

3 transports 1 tank is for tank dash; you’re trying to kick down the door to India, build an IC there, and then start pushing through Caucasus/India.  Technically, you don’t NEED to build a tank, but if you already know you’re going dedicated tank dash, then you start the tank production ASAP.

As far as infantry on J1 build go - well, you only have 4 transports AFTER the build assuming a UK attack on Kwangtung transport.  Even if you had 5 transports, though, which you sometimes will, you still want to use some of those transports pulling Jap infantry off the islands.  Really, you don’t have the transport capacity to dump those two extra J1 built infantry on the mainland on J2 anyways, so you might as well build a tank.  Artillery isn’t bad either.  Either way, I just don’t think it’s necessary to build infantry on J1.

[newpaintbrush]

@Magister:

Some observations on the Japanese front:

• Russia can mass 10 inf in Yakut. Combined with 2 ftr threatening from Moscow, it makes impractical to even land in Buryat until J3 (when uniting with forces landed in Manchuria on J2).

Yeah, but think about it, where are those 10 infantry gonna go?  If they move forwards to the coast, Japan kills them with mass fighters and transported infantry.  And if the 10 infantry stay there, Japan builds up forces and kicks them out anyways.  And that is a lot less infantry going against Germany.  Frankly, I’d land in Burytia on J1, and let you try to grab the territory back.  10 infantry go down REAL quick to 4 Japanese transports plus fighters/bomber on J2.  Besides, if you use Russian fighters against Japan, you can’t trade territory nearly as effectively with Germany.  Plus the Russian fighters have to be committed to the east, they can’t fly back into range to threaten Germany.

• A Russian inf+ARTY mass in Novosibirsk is very effective at gaining more time, or punishing not-too-strong approaches (either from east or south).

True, but again, you’re bleeding off reserves from the German front.  Novosibirsk is important, yes.  But sometimes you cannot count on being able to bulk up at Novosibirsk due to German pressure.

• Is the southern approach (Indochina, India, Persia, Caucasus) viable ? I found it very hard to do together with a northern approach towards Novosibirsk. The same Russian tanks and fighters can threaten both, effectively ‘doubling’ their presence. Maybe press only the southern route ?

And just where do those Russian tanks have to be to threaten both Novosibirsk and India?  Caucasus.  In other words, Not West Russia.  In other words, if the Russians are building tanks, they have less infantry.  In other words, less infantry, more tanks, weaker West Russia, stronger German offense.  Anyways, I wouldn’t just press the southern route.  Either you transport mass infantry in, and do both Ssinkiang and Novosibirsk, or you build mass tanks, and switch up on your offense.

A steady moderate flow is possible to both routes: 4 transports, 2 are off FIC and 2 of Japan. Each turn, the FIC ones move to Japan, load and unload 4 units to Buryat; the Japan transports load 4 units and unload 4 units to FIC.

Ideally, Japan wants to grab India early, build an IC there, and pump out 11 units a turn.  If you stay with only 8 units a turn, Japan runs out of steam, and can’t afford to make serious threats on multiple fronts.  If India is well defended, an IC at French Indochina or Kwangtung will do.

Later, after much struggle… Japan succeeded to bring the mass in Novosibirsk and have it survive. The flow of reinforcements from Japan >tra >Buryat >Yakut is very ‘inertial’ and ‘slow’ (and other routes are slower). UK and/or US sent some help to Moscow, and can send more. Now what to do to crack Moscow before Allies crack Berlin ?

Germany should have kept its airforce.  Infantry plus fighters make Berlin very difficult to crack, even if the Allies threaten Western and Southern Europe.

• Build a factory in Novosibirsk to add 2 ARTY /turn ? The foregone income means less inf… in 4 turns !

Never.  Only build industrial complexes in territories with value 3 or more that are on the same continent you want to attack.  MAYBE an island IC if you really know what you’re doing.

• Swing the Japanese mass west to Kazakh then Caucasus for more local building ? Then the ‘traditional’ flow of reinforcements may get too weak to survive in Novo’ against the ever-increasing Russian mass. Essentially Japan needs then 2 defensive armies, and if they are that strong they would win anyway ;-). Or the new Novo army to be used as ‘bait’ - if Russians attack it, they weaken themselves against the Caucasus army ?

Just make the Russians bleed themselves out against you, and swing for the fences.  If the UK and US are concentrating heavily on Berlin, it’s Japan at 40+ IPC against Russia at 30+ IPC.  Not great, but certainly not bad either.

[OneShot187]

@cyan:

to the orginial question how long does it take to drive to moscow the answer is 4660 miles or anywhere from 50 to 78 horurs depending on how fast you drive.  http://www.indo.com/cgi-bin/dist/place2=moscow%2C+russia?place1=tokyo%2C+japan

but i say you should slways attack buryatia if russia moves there unless you can better use those battleships. most of the time you should attack.

That made me laugh!

But this discussion will surely help in my next game.  Last night I played FTF with a friend and I wasn’t very optimal with my Japs.  He built up a rediculous US Navy all game and attacked me in Japan SZ60 with 4BBs, 9Subs, 2Des, 1HBom, and 1Tran.  So I was kinda forced to keep my Transports in SZ60 for both cannon fodder and using them to bridge.  I left 1CV w/2Fig, 2BBs, 1Des, and 6Subs to defend my 4Trans.

I’m still a new player and am scared to take my Inf from the islands as UK or US can just take the islands freely.  But my Germany was doing fine and his UK and US weren’t helping out USSR hardly so I ended up taking Moscow with Germany fairly easily, but he did shock me by winning D-Day.

[newpaintbrush]

@OneShot187:

@cyan:

to the orginial question how long does it take to drive to moscow the answer is 4660 miles or anywhere from 50 to 78 horurs depending on how fast you drive.  http://www.indo.com/cgi-bin/dist/place2=moscow%2C+russia?place1=tokyo%2C+japan

but i say you should slways attack buryatia if russia moves there unless you can better use those battleships. most of the time you should attack.

That made me laugh!

Did it rly?

But this discussion will surely help in my next game.  Last night I played FTF with a friend and I wasn’t very optimal with my Japs.  He built up a rediculous US Navy all game and attacked me in Japan SZ60 with 4BBs, 9Subs, 2Des, 1HBom, and 1Tran.  So I was kinda forced to keep my Transports in SZ60 for both cannon fodder and using them to bridge.  I left 1CV w/2Fig, 2BBs, 1Des, and 6Subs to defend my 4Trans.

Look, man, if he wasted that much IPCs on battleships and tech research, you shoulda blasted him with fighters and economic advantage gained from holdings in Asia and Africa.

I’m still a new player and am scared to take my Inf from the islands as UK or US can just take the islands freely.  But my Germany was doing fine and his UK and US weren’t helping out USSR hardly so I ended up taking Moscow with Germany fairly easily, but he did shock me by winning D-Day.

Japanese infantry on mainland.  Russia has to deal with them.

Japanese infantry on isolated islands.  US attacks with 4 infantry 4 fighters and loses maybe 1 infantry for every 3 they kill.

When you see KJF coming, build fighters with Japan.

[OneShot187]

@newpaintbrush:

Did it rly?

Ya Rly

But what if the Allies use KBJAGF strategery?

[newpaintbrush]

@OneShot187:

But what if the Allies use KBJAGF strategery?

KBJAGF?

Kill Both Japan And Germany First?

Is this like the “Pie or Ice Cream - Yes” question?

There’s kill Germany first, kill Japan first, kill Japan first while stalling Germany, and kill Germany first while stalling Japan.  It’s not possible for the Allies to FOCUS on both Japan and Germany; if the Allies go up against both Axis at the same time, that’s called NOT focusing.

[OneShot187]

Yeah I was just being funny.  :-D

But what plan has a potential to backfire more say if the Axis player knows whats coming and plans for it?  KJF or KGF?

Or does this go back to the equal skilled players versus equally matched players debate.

[newpaintbrush]

@OneShot187:

Yeah I was just being funny.  :-D

But what plan has a potential to backfire more say if the Axis player knows whats coming and plans for it?  KJF or KGF?

Or does this go back to the equal skilled players versus equally matched players debate.

I’d say KJF is slightly more vulnerable, because of multiple ICs in range of possible Rocket technology, and the stronger possibility of an Axis-held Africa.

[Magister]

To clarify:
Yakut as starting position: it’s mainy a threat to strafe, not a full counterattack advancing to the coast (But may risk to become so if it goes ‘too well’)
1R: 10 inf 2 ftr threatens max Japanese force in Buryat which can be only 3inf 1tnk. (Assuming Kwangtung transport sunk 1UK) So they don’t try.
2R: 10 inf 2 ftr threatens max Japanese landing which can be 6inf 1arty 1tnk. So they do it one area back, in Kwangtung.
3R: cannot attack anymore, if Japan concentrate in Buryat 2 turns worth of transports. But they can still hold. 1-2 tanks may arrive to improve defense.
4R Russians have to retreat.

Novosibirsk as medium-term holding position. The unapproachable dead zones would be Yakut, Sinkiang and Kazakh. Tank reserve can be in Moscow, threatening Ukraine and Persia too.

On longer term building race: agree that 8 units/turn is only a start, and at one time Japan would NEED a factory or two.

Factory in Novosibirsk: I think it’s necessary once Japan is solid in place. Cheaper inf/arty can be built and defend right now, and attack next turn. Tanks in factories (Kwantung, FIC etc) need 3 turns from income to battle, and are relatively more expensive. Forces from Japan need 5 turns.
And for a time, the two flows cumulate: new forces built in Novo, old flow still coming for 4 more turns before being reduced (not a lot, because of the total income).

Factory in Caucasus: it’s very nice, the problem is that at this stage both sides have a stalemate of 80-100 units. If this is all, Russians still win with 6-8 units/turn built compared to Japan’s 4. What I was talking about was the smaller new force gathering in Yakut etc. from further landings. It may get to 20-30 units or so, but surely it would be suicide to put it in Novo next to the 100 unit Russian mass strafing every turn. And if waiting until second Japan army is strong enough, at that time the Russian mass may have overtaken the Caucasus besiegers. To unify back in Kazakh at the last moment would abandon the factory, and the east force needs to come from Sinkiang (since Novo is a dead zone). Right ?

So back to a simple frontal siege from Novosibirsk.

An interesting case can be made for swapping or keeping flank areas (Evenki, Kazakh, Persia etc) with more forces. Like 3-4 inf each. If Russia wants to swap them, they can do it only one at a time, and send some forces (some of them offensive, like arty) each turn. At this stage, accelerated attrition works for Japan, and they have more fighters. Or Russia may ignore Japanese presences, and the income difference helps Japan again.

[newpaintbrush]

If you put a chunk of Russian infantry in Yakut, Japan can just let them sit there.  As I wrote earlier, those are 10 infantry that you are NOT using against Germany.  You are NOT using them against Japan.  They CANNOT be quickly redeployed to respond to a Japanese move towards India.  They CANNOT be quickly redeployed to respond to a German threat.  And if you DO move forwards to the coast, Japan WILL smash those 10 inf.  It is not difficult with even 7 inf 1 art 5 fig 1 bomber plus 1 battleship support shot.

A factory in Novosibirsk is not a good idea for Japan.  Novosibirsk takes a far longer time to take and hold.  Novosibirsk is far more vulnerable to attack from Russia.  Novosibirsk produces less units.

“The Russians still win with 6-8 units” - if Japan has the Caucasus, Russia probably holds only 11-14 IPC worth of territories.  That is 3-5 units per turn, not 6-8.  Also, I don’t know where you get these figures of 100 units.  Stacks shouldn’t hit that point.  And again, Germany ought to be trying to press on Russia as well.  If you’re saying that Germany’s neutralized by the other Allies, you should actually say so, instead of not making any mention.

[Nix]

And the danger is even grater if germany launches a rapid all out attack on Russia, while Japan musters up for the kill.