Different Approach to Marines. Edit: Elite/Marine units.

[John Brown]

@Baron:

Here, I will try to work in the opposite direction: “generalized system that would apply to elite forces for any power rather than specifically just to Marines”

In the actual cost structure for grounds units, there is already 2 units at 4 IPCs:
Artillery A2 D2 M1 C4, +1A to Inf or Mec Inf
Mec Inf A1 D2 M2 C4, can blitz when paired to a Tank

AAA is at 5 IPCs, but it is not relevant here,
so there is still a room for Self-Propelled Artillery/Gun unit A2 D3 M2 at 5 IPCs,
(combined with Tnk can get around A5 D6 M2 C11, for example.)
I know tob77 you have a lot of HBG sculpts. :-)

Finally, when doing combined arms or putting 2 ground units together, there is a small gap between 10 and 12 IPCs:
Art + Inf =         A4 D4 M1     7 IPCs
Art + Mec Inf=    A4 D4 M1-2  8 IPCs
Tnk + Inf =        A4 D5 M1-2  9 IPCs
Tnk + Mec Inf=   A4 D5 M2    10 IPCs
Tnk + Art =        A5 D5 M1-2  10 IPCs
Elite Tnk+El Inf= A5 D5 M2 11 IPCs  in amphibious assault and  A3 + A2 first strike in reg combat
Tnk + Tnk =       A6 D6 M2 12 IPCs

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This is a perfect niche for 2 Elite units (Elite Inf 4 IPCs + Elite Tnk 7 IPCs) which can also works as Marines.
As showed earlier, these cost stay within acceptable limits for putting on a single transport 3 units Elite Inf or 2 Elite Infs and 1 Elite Tnk compared to 2 regular units on a transport (6.33 vs 6.5 IPCs/unit and 7.33 vs 8 IPCs/unit.)

Elite Infantry A1-2 D2 M1-2 C4,
in Regular combat:

• Gets offensive pre-emptive strike each round.
  Defender casualties from this strike are removed immediately with no counter fire.
  Thanks Knp7765  :wink:

• Get A2 when attacking alone or only with other Elite Infantry.
  (This is in addition to the pre-emptive strike: think of it as commando raiders.)

• Get A2 when supported 1:1 by Artillery unit (as any Inf or Mec Inf),

• Get A2 & M2, but no blitz, when supported 1:1 by Elite Tank

in Amphibious assault:

• can load 3 Elite Infantry units in a transport or 2 Elite Infs & 1 Elite Tank,

• Get A2 when supported 1:1 by Artillery unit (as any Inf or Mec Inf),

• Get A2 when supported 1:1 by Elite Tank

Elite Tank  A3 D3 M2 C7 , can blitz as OOB Tnk.
in Regular combat:

• Gives +1A supporting 1:1 Inf, Mec Inf or Elite Inf, same as Artillery unit

• Gives +1M supporting 1:1 Elite Inf, but Elite Inf cannot blitz.

• Give blitzing to Mec Inf when paired 1:1. (As OOB Tank.)

in Amphibious assault:

• can be load on a transport with up to 2 Elite Infantries, or 1 regular Infantry.

• Gives +1A supporting 1:1 Inf, Mec Inf or Elite Inf, same as Artillery unit

---

There is various offensive situation in regular combat for Elite Infantry:
Alone or with other Elite Inf, it get A2 first strike.
When supported by Art or Elite Tank, it gets also A2 first strike.
Then, Elite Infantry stay A1 first strike when attacking with other units.

On amphibious assault, there is no first strike, and it remains A1 unless there is some support from Artillery or Elite Tank to raise it to A2.

The preemptive strike in regular ground combat was a required incentive.
Something was needed to make Elite Infantry better than cheaper Infantry and having some interest over Artillery unit at the same cost but having a basic A2 and giving +1 bonus.

Baron, nice job on the breakdown on how the units would work, in different situations. All of you guys are coming up with some cool ways to use these units. :-D

[toblerone77]

@CWO:

@toblerone77:

  So far I’m just throwing out the basic idea that movement or logistical advantage can be a “special advantage”.Â

It’s true in the case of the USMC that it sometimes “hitches a hire” on ships that actually belong to the Navy, and that it gets hand-me-down equipment from the US Army when the Army upgrades itself to newer models…but I’m wondering about whether this really ought to translate into giving elite forces a logistical bonus in A&A.  I’m wondering about this for two reasons.  First: from what I know about them, many of the USMC operations in the Pacific were so large-scale that they required just as much dedicated sea transportation (troop-transport ships, landing craft and supply vessels) as the US Army did in its own equivalent operations.  I’m not sure the USMC was significantly leaner than the Army in that respect.  (The larger US Navy combat ships traditionally carry a Marine contingent for internal security functions and other purposes, but that’s a different story.)  Second: although there are exceptions, I think it’s not unusual for elite forces (in general) to have specialized transportation and equipment requirements, especially if they’re carrying out a mission with customized requirements – so in that respect, they can be logistically intensive rather than logistically economical.  It all depends on the situation, of course: for example, the raid on Makin Island conducted by the USMC’s 2nd Raider Battalion had specialized transportation needs (it had to be infiltrated discreetly), but it met those needs by hitching a ride on a couple of USN submarines (so in that respect the operation was economical).  But the point is that the USMC’s sometimes peculiar situation with regard to logistics may not be applicable to the other elite forces for which this house rule might be used.

I know Marc, but you know me, I have penchant when it comes to A&A towards the more “unlikely but remotely possible” ideas about the game LOL. Although not related to this particular topic, I have toyed with an “alter-niverse” variant using HBG sculpts that has the USMC/China as a separate player that must be funded by the US player. Anyways I do agree with what you are saying.

[toblerone77]

@knp7765:

In a recent game, we had an elite unit for each of the 6 major nations (USA, USSR, UK, Germany, Japan, Italy). Basically, we added to the attack and cost and gave each one a certain special ability. We also limited each nation to 6 units on the board at any one time.
US Marines        A2 - D2 - M1 - C4 == Attack @ 3 in amphibious assaults.
UK Commandos A2 - D2 - M1 - C4 == On attack each commando unit gets 1 pre-emptive strike. Defender casualties from this strike are removed immediately with no counter fire.
USSR Guards     A2 - D2 - M1 - C4 == On DEFENSE can re-roll misses. One re-roll per unit per combat round.
Germany SS      A2 - D2 - M1 - C4 == On ATTACK can re-roll misses. One re-roll per unit per combat round.
Japan SNLF       A2 - D2 - M1 - C4 == Defends @3 on islands.
Italy Bersagliari A2 - D2 - M1 - C4 == Defends @3 in Rome.

We also included Paratroopers for all nations
Paratroopers    A2 - D2 - M1 - C4 == Attack @ 3 on 1st round of an Airborne drop.
We were also using transport aircraft for paratroopers. Transport aircraft could take 1 paratroop for combat move or they could move 2 infantry during non-combat move. They have a range of 6. Subject to AA fire if enemy has an AA gun.
It occurs to me if attacking a territory with enemy fighters, perhaps there should be some sort of air combat before the regular combat because the fighters could try to intercept the transports, but we didn’t work any type of rule like that out.

I thought these worked pretty well for our game. It would seem like the UK Commandos have the strongest ability. I thought this up because the Commandos usually specialized in sneak attacks where the enemy wasn’t expecting them. Overall, it isn’t overpowering because they still only hit @ 2.
The Italian Bersagliari troops seem kind of limited for their special ability. The truth is that I just don’t know that much about them. I have heard of them but don’t really know what type of actions or abilities they were known for. So I figured strong defense of their capital was as good as anything.

Good stuff KNP! very similar ideas have rattled around in my mind, but you hit it dead on with the paras and transports.

[toblerone77]

@Baron:

Here, I will try to work in the opposite direction: “generalized system that would apply to elite forces for any power rather than specifically just to Marines”

In the actual cost structure for grounds units, there is already 2 units at 4 IPCs:
Artillery A2 D2 M1 C4, +1A to Inf or Mec Inf
Mec Inf A1 D2 M2 C4, can blitz when paired to a Tank

AAA is at 5 IPCs, but it is not relevant here,
so there is still a room for Self-Propelled Artillery/Gun unit A2 D3 M2 at 5 IPCs,
(combined with Tnk can get around A5 D6 M2 C11, for example.)
I know tob77 you have a lot of HBG sculpts. :-)

Finally, when doing combined arms or putting 2 ground units together, there is a small gap between 10 and 12 IPCs:
Art + Inf =         A4 D4 M1     7 IPCs
Art + Mec Inf=    A4 D4 M1-2  8 IPCs
Tnk + Inf =        A4 D5 M1-2  9 IPCs
Tnk + Mec Inf=   A4 D5 M2    10 IPCs
Tnk + Art =        A5 D5 M1-2  10 IPCs
Elite Tnk+El Inf= A5 D5 M2 11 IPCs  in amphibious assault and  A3 + A2 first strike in reg combat
Tnk + Tnk =       A6 D6 M2 12 IPCs

---

This is a perfect niche for 2 Elite units (Elite Inf 4 IPCs + Elite Tnk 7 IPCs) which can also works as Marines.
As showed earlier, these cost stay within acceptable limits for putting on a single transport 3 units Elite Inf or 2 Elite Infs and 1 Elite Tnk compared to 2 regular units on a transport (6.33 vs 6.5 IPCs/unit and 7.33 vs 8 IPCs/unit.)

Elite Infantry A1-2 D2 M1-2 C4,
in Regular combat:

• Gets offensive pre-emptive strike each round.
  Defender casualties from this strike are removed immediately with no counter fire.
  Thanks Knp7765  :wink:

• Get A2 when attacking alone or only with other Elite Infantry.
  (This is in addition to the pre-emptive strike: think of it as commando raiders.)

• Get A2 when supported 1:1 by Artillery unit (as any Inf or Mec Inf),

• Get A2 & M2, but no blitz, when supported 1:1 by Elite Tank

in Amphibious assault:

• can load 3 Elite Infantry units in a transport or 2 Elite Infs & 1 Elite Tank,

• Get A2 when supported 1:1 by Artillery unit (as any Inf or Mec Inf),

• Get A2 when supported 1:1 by Elite Tank

Elite Tank  A3 D3 M2 C7 , can blitz as OOB Tnk.
in Regular combat:

• Gives +1A supporting 1:1 Inf, Mec Inf or Elite Inf, same as Artillery unit

• Gives +1M supporting 1:1 Elite Inf, but Elite Inf cannot blitz.

• Give blitzing to Mec Inf when paired 1:1. (As OOB Tank.)

in Amphibious assault:

• can be load on a transport with up to 2 Elite Infantries, or 1 regular Infantry.

• Gives +1A supporting 1:1 Inf, Mec Inf or Elite Inf, same as Artillery unit

---

There is various offensive situation in regular combat for Elite Infantry:
Alone or with other Elite Inf, it get A2 first strike.
When supported by Art or Elite Tank, it gets also A2 first strike.
Then, Elite Infantry stay A1 first strike when attacking with other units.

On amphibious assault, there is no first strike, and it remains A1 unless there is some support from Artillery or Elite Tank to raise it to A2.

The preemptive strike in regular ground combat was a required incentive.
Something was needed to make Elite Infantry better than cheaper Infantry and having some interest over Artillery unit at the same cost but having a basic A2 and giving +1 bonus.

That actually looks pretty good Baron +1. I liked your breakdown on this.

[baron Münchhausen]

@John:

Baron, nice job on the breakdown on how the units would work, in different situations. All of you guys are coming up with some cool ways to use these units. :-D

@toblerone77:

That actually looks pretty good Baron +1. I liked your breakdown on this.

Thanks guys.
The real breakthrough is the 3 units cargo for transport.
It clearly provides a new approach toward Marines / Elite units.
I hope that the additional 1 IPC is enough deterrent to not change USA into an only Elite army.
I don’t like specific rule which states a direct limit number.
Hope it could be tested so we get feed back on this point.
IMO, this could resolve the cunundrum on Marines vs Art & Inf even at the expense of an historical twist.

[baron Münchhausen]

@toblerone77:

Good stuff KNP! very similar ideas have rattled around in my mind, but you hit it dead on with the paras and transports.

On paratroopers,
I must avow that I didn’t share your enthusiasm KNP & toblerone.
A round @3 is very high.
Transport mode should have a similar cost on avg.
A 2 places plane need to cost at least 8 IPCs.
8 + 4 + 4 = 16 /2 = 8 IPCs/unit.
This is the same ratio for an Inf & a Tnk.
This last one brings 4 attack points  (1 + 3).
2 Paratroopers should not bring more.

So IMO, a balance unit is simply A1-2 D2 M1 C4, get A2 when airdropped.

The other balancing problem is with Air transport  NCMove.
You can move 2 reg Inf for an avg of 8 + 3 + 3 = 14 /2 = 7 IPCs/unit.
It is inside limits but they goes farther in a single turn than with sea transport and at no risk.
Because of this I would raise cost of AirT to 12 IPCs or limit their cargo to Paratroopers only.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Baron:

On paratroopers,
I must avow that I didn’t share your enthousiasm KNP & toblerone.
A round @3 is very high.
Transport mode should have a similar cost on avg.
A 2 places plane need to cost at least 8 IPCs.
8 + 4 + 4 = 16 /2 = 8 IPCs/unit.
This is the same ratio for an Inf & a Tnk.
This last one brings 4 attack points  (1 + 3).
2 Paratroopers should not bring more.

So IMO, a balance unit is simply A1-2 D2 M1 C4, get A2 when airdropped.

The other balancing problem is with Air transport  NCMove.
You can move 2 reg Inf for an avg of 8 + 3 + 3 = 14 /2 = 7 IPCs/unit.
It is inside limits but they goes farther in a single turn than with sea transport and at no risk.
Because of this I would raise cost of AirT to 12 IPCs or limit their cargo to Paratroopers only.

Sorry, I misread.
If an Air transport can only drop 1 Para then 1 round @3 seems ok.
However, I would limit NCM to 2 Paratroopers and only them.

I think there is some historical background also to not let reg Inf units travel by plane.

What is the cost of your aircraft transport KNP? 9 IPCs, fine.
EDIT: Thanks for the very complete answer in this post:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=33678.msg1287232#msg1287232

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EDIT note:
Reading more threads on this topic, I find this much more realistic:
Paratrooper A1-3 D2 M1 C4,
get A3 for the first combat round only when airdropped*,
can received A2 when supported by Artillery.

• Moved by air transport either 1 in CM or 2 units NCM.
• In CM can only be dropped in…

…an enemy controlled territory that is being attacked by your land units from adjacent territories and/or by amphibious assault. If the territory being attacked has an antiaircraft gun, the air transport unit (with paratrooper unit) is subject to antiaircraft fire in the same way as other air units. If attacking along with land units from adjacent territories, paratroopers may retreat as normal.

It gives the feel that surprise effect is over and they have diminishing supplies.
Basically, they work as regular Infantry past the first round.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_forces

@Imperious:

So you have to do a few things with them to make them work.

They need a punch and attack at 2 is not really a punch
They need to ‘wither away’ after the first round to simulate lack of supplies

They need to not be expendable, so people wont throw them in battles every turn because they are worthless compared to other units.

They need to have some counter to thwart them as a defense and limitations of where they can land.

So how bout first round 3, all other rounds its attack at 1. In defense they are at 2
They cost 5 because at 4 they will become expendable and artillery will suffer.

They cant be dropped in capitals and not dropped too far away say 2-3 spaces ( prob say 2 like OOB rules)

also i guess you should limit quantity to 3 or 6 of these…

[baron Münchhausen]

About cost balance of Elite/Marines, here is a first point:

The 4 IPCs and 7 IPCs Marines unit transportation cost is relatively balance on the long run, when a player can use for a second time some transports.
After the first travel, where it is better for Marines unit, the transportation ratio is reversing toward regular units.

FIRST TRAVEL                                                        / SECOND TRAVEL, same transport
Cost ratio for Regular unit transportation:
3 (transport + Inf + Inf)                                                 3 (Inf + Inf)
3 (7+3+3) = 39 IPCs /6 grounds = 6.5 IPCs/unit  /  3(3+3)= 18 IPCs +39 = 57 IPCs/12= 4.75 IPCs/unit

2 (transport + Inf + Tnk) + 1 (transport + Inf + Inf)        (4 Inf + 2 Tnk)
2*(7+3+6) + 1*(7+3+3)= 45 /6 units = 7.5 IPCs/unit  /  12 + 12 = 24 IPCs + 45 = 69 IPCs /12 = 5.75 IPCs/unit

Cost ratio for Marines unit transportation:
2 (transport + Inf + Inf + Inf)                                        2 (Inf + Inf + Inf)
2*(7+4+4+4)= 38 /6 units = 6.33 IPCs/unit             /      2*(4+4+4)= 24 IPCs + 38 = 62 IPCs /12 = 5.167 IPCs/unit

2 (transport + Inf + Inf+ Tnk)                                       2 (Inf + Inf + Tnk)
2*(7+4+4+7)= 44 / 6 units = 7.33 IPcs/unit            /      2*(4+4+7)= 30 IPCs + 44 = 74 IPCs /12 = 6.167 IPCs/unit

So, after a second travel, with the same 12 units the transportation ratio is improving for regular units compared to Marines ones:

for 12 Infs vs 12 Marines Infs =  4.75 vs 5.167 IPCs/unit.

for 8 Infs+ 4 Tnks vs 8 Marines Infs + 4 Marines Tnks = 5.75 vs 6.167 IPCs/unit.