Stopping japan

[critmonster]

greetings, i have been reading the posts and finally decided to register and hopefully not get flamed into submission.
my question is this: how do you stop japan from rolling over the ussr? my group is fairly new to the game, two of us played classic alot and three newbies but no fools.  with aggressive german play in the atlantic and consistent mainland push by japan the games have all been axis victory with japan taking moscow except the one that i played allies and had two newbies.
i have also downloaded triple a and tried a couple variants and the results are the same.
i know the game is supposed to be weighted towards the allies slightly so i/we are missing something. 
after some responses (if any) i could post some of my strats if they are different from the “standard”
thanks

[Guest]

Are the US and UK sending troops to northern Europe?  Allied forces in Norway, Karelia, Archangel (and then moving south through Russia to other areas if needed) is a key component to many Allied strats.

Is RUssia trying to hold everywhere in Europe?  Or stacking to maximize force and allow for territory trading?

Is the US going too hard to Africa or into the Pacific instead of sendign forces to Europe?

Did Russia reinforce Sinkiang, stack somewhere around Yakut, and perhaps send a few INF to block Japan incurrsions via Pesia?

[critmonster]

the last game (i was gemany) the other experienced guy played russia.  he had a nice west russia stack and an eastern stack as well.  i bought cv and trannie to threaten uk, hit gibralter(sp?) and did egypt with bomber, 2 fig and inf/tank (i liked this idea, trapped the dd in med) uk hit with everything! he then merged the dd with indian fleet off madagascar to try and threaten japs before running to atlantic to replace his dead fleet there.as i played footsie with ussr in europe i merged my fleets off france, uk tried to hit me and got hammered then i took out the us atlantic fleet.  they eventually got me but the delay was enough to allow japan to take moscow (barely, newbie nip). i did have some pretty good dice rolls and that might of been the difference i guess but still i owned from the atlantic all the way to the cauc. for three rounds, game over.

[kyrial]

Crit, just out of curiosity what were the UK1 and US1 buys? And what did they do on their first two rounds?

If you don’t remember exact numbers/ moves it’s ok I am just trying to see how the Allies played your building a German fleet and merging it in the Atlantic… oh, and how did Japan go to Russia? Northern, central, southern prong or combo?

[critmonster]

uk, when they saw the three trans in position for london bought 2 fighters and land units.  us did a very solid 2 tran, cv, 2 tank and placed all in atlantic to “stabilize” europe.  uk2 he hit my fleet and got crushed, i think his purchase was another mix of air/ground. us moved to algeria (bought bombers)then got smacked by my navy. as i said they got me but not until i had bought an additional three rounds.  russia was rockin, but i think his mistake was hitting three territories which divided his stack, my counter got two of them and he was too thin by then, he still held on and even pushed japan back in the initial moscow approach.  they guy did a great job with ussr and his teammates apologized for leaving him alone, but they had little option with the german atlantic navy keeping them away from europe and the jap navy keeping them away from asia.

[kyrial]

I guess what I’m not getting here is how Germany has managed to keep a navy that rivals/ surpasses the US/ UK fleets. Are you buying navy for Germany on a regular basis? If so how much, and if you’re spending that much on navy what is Russia buying that he’s not able to overwhelm you on the land? I’m not saying it to be sarcastic, I’m just not exactly getting how this particular game bore out. As the USA/ UK I would love it if Germany went heavy navy; there are those on the boards who have pointed out that it’s not a bad idea to go with a CV on G1 to support the baltic fleet but the last thing Germany wants to get into is a naval build arms race with the allies.

[critmonster]

i was taking fighters as casualties and replacing them 1/round.  russia was basically taking it to me good until he split his stack and i could dent the beast.  us got kicked out of africa when their fleet got splashed, by the time they got back in the seen (they took western twice before moscow fell) i was turtled and sacrificed my tanks to soften ussr up for japan.

[aaFiendish]

To answer your initial question, how does the USSR stop Japan? Well, sometimes they don’t. For example, in your game, russia never should have split their stack. With germany devoting their time to naval resources russia should have had a nice solid stack. If I were playing russia and I saw serious naval builds I would have started pulling my troops westward. Yes, japan will make its way to moscow, but the whole time russia will be making substantial IPC gains in the west, and should arrive on germany’s door with a helluva stack.

The other option is to actually get the allies into europe. Even with germany pumping all of their IPCs into navy, the allies should have no problem dealing with it. That is the simple truth. The allied navy being stomped by your german navy was simply poor play, or poor dice. I don’t mean poor play in a bad way, just in a…novice sort of way. I wouldn’t expect perfect play from someone their first few times playing, and really not from anyone (though agentsmith might tell you he plays perfectly  :evil:). Typically germany does not spend so much on navy, and even regardless, at some point the allies can drop troops in norway/karelia/archangel/eastern if they choose, and failure to do so is very bad for the allies. Once naval superiority is gained by the allies, most builds go to troop drops which equal germany’s forces. From there the russians can either continue on to berlin, or if they feel the US/UK can handle germany, turn and face japan with all of their forces. If russia can fully turn they can stop japan, but they need a secure backside and that is the UK/US responsibility.

[critmonster]

i wasn’t buying navy, just fighters.  japan was pumping 11 units a round into asia and i was holding the line in europe, trading the central countries.  i agree, i think the real turning point was when russia split their stack but i still was building 8-10 infantry per turn.  should the usa go north to can/norway?  i always like using usa to go brazil/africa then when sub-sahara is secure all six trans can hit algeria then a 3x3 swap there or hit western or southern.  as i said, they took western twice but i was able to retake it without depleting my berlin/rome reserves too much because at that time i was buying 1 fighter and all infantry. japan rolled into and through because i was tweaking them all out so much that EVERYTHING was going at me which was my plan.  it barely worked as is but i have run a few games in triplea similarly and it panned out similarly.  if japan can avoid major naval engagements with usa except on their terms and germany can stall the atlantic shuffle even two turns then i always see jap tanks in moscow.
  i have heard about the asian wall but that seems like two free ic’s for japan.  building a big enough fleet in pacific takes time and if japan is smart too much time.  i know my strat with germany is not unique not was the very traditional jap push, so, what’s up? if uk had built a cv i would have been able to hit london brutally and if the russian sub stalled me one round i would still be merged.  i think the baltic navy rocks!

[kyrial]

If russia can fully turn they can stop japan, but they need a secure backside and that is the UK/US responsibility.

And that’s the key. The difference between Russia and Japan is that while Japan certainly can outproduce the Russians offensive-unit wise, once the Russians pull back in the east they have the advantage of much closer IC production to the battlefield. Sure, Japan can plop an IC down in Manchuria/ FIC but then they have to drive those tanks all the way to Moscow. As far as INF goes, which you will need a bit of unless you want naked tanks running around  :-o they will take a while to get to Moscow and in the numbers needed to prevent constant Russian strafes. Russia can keep pumping INF into Novo and a few tanks held back in order to give some fire-power wheras after the initial quick IPC wins, Japan will need to march troops long distance in order to bring any force to bear. Also, if Russia has played her cards right in the west (assuming a heavy German navy build) she should be taking territories worth the IPCs lost to Japan if not gaining a bit.

I will maintain, though it’s only my opinion, that there is no way a good player will not be able to counter a German fleet with a combined US/ UK fleet over time. Unless Germany is willing to spend their entire income time after time, they will after a few rounds have lost an Atlantic fleet. I’ve found that unless Germany keeps constant pressure on Russia by whacking at them every turn the Russian stack (if not split, which ideally it is not) will be able to grind Germany out.

I don’t have the time now to post one, but maybe someone could post a potential buy order for the first few turns as Allies provided Germany is going heavy navy buys? I’ve come around to agree that a CV buy on G1 is not a bad move at all (different way of playing the game) and having a German navy escape to the Atlantic provides an interesting scenerio for potential allied troops coming from the USA to anywhere, but again if the US/ UK both take turns whacking the German fleet I don’t see how it lasts baring atrocious dice rolls.

[critmonster]

my navy didn’t last more than three rounds but that was enough to slow usa/uk just enough for japan to make it to moscow.  my point of this thread was not another german navy discussion (not that i mind, it was really fun while it lasted!) but how to slow japan down, is the only way by hitting germany with usa/uk so russia can turn around and smack them nips? i was hoping for something different and have been thinking some options over via triplea, it seems if usa can get japan to duke it out they can replace the fleet that japan cannot but they must pick their battle carefully or risk being wiped with little japan damage.

[aaFiendish]

What did japan make it to moscow with? Frankly it doesn’t matter too much if japan is at moscow’s doorstep with 1 inf, “oh no”. The absolute best japan could do if they go the northern route is to be near moscow in round 3. What you should be doing as russia is instead of bleeding your inf in the east for little gain, slowly pull back to novo. If you bought an armor a turn and dedicated an inf a turn to go east, then by the time japan reaches you you have about 10 inf, 3 arm and that’s not including your initial arm. Now, what does japan do? I know japan doesn’t have that much to attack with, which means whatever is near novo is going to get creamed. If there is a counter, then novo strafes that stack making the japanese front forces again, incredibly impotent. If japan goes strong in the south, then you just shift the novo stack to kazakh. I’m playing  a game right now (this is a different version than standard revised, but same general principle) where japan pushed hard into persia. They had 2 inf, 3 arm in persia, and were ready to follow that up with 6 arm, courtesy of IC’s. So, as russia, all I did was attack 2 inf, 3 arm with 6 inf, 2 fighters. The tradeoff is in my favor, and next round if japan puts their big bad scary armor in persia, I am just going to kill 90% of it with my stack of 8 or so inf, and 5 or so arm. Trading inf for arm, that’s the key. I can tell from an inf drop in burytia that he will be coming from there soon. Not a big deal because germany is being rolled over landwise due to their naval builds, so my next russian stack of 8 inf, 3 arm will face them. Germany buying navy is bad for japan, and mitigates their role as the pushers.

[critmonster]

if japan is not too eager they can have quite a force rolling in as everyone knows, it is a balancing act for sure, fast enough to save the game but not so fast you over expose your armor.  in the particular game i am talking about he was able to build up for an extra round because i had turtled in europe and the allies were trading western with me while he prepared for moscow.  i am not looking for a blow by blow breakdown of a single game but rather input on how other more exprerienced(?) players slow the japanese land push down beside the usa/uk push in europe so russia can hammer the japs.  we are recreational players due to schedule and family constraints and are interested in entertainment more than gen con rankings.  it may simply be my opponents are still too new but as i said on triple a i can get japan rolling inland pretty fast and furious as well.
by the way i do appreciate the input.

[Patton+]

you can do some cheap moves turn one to set them back a round… take out the transport off manchuria round 1 with the british destroyer, ahh take borneo with the british… take the one spot next to it with the british transport from australia and two men if your feeling lucky. go toe to toe with the japanese sub with your british sub

Send the bomber from eastern us and the fighter from hawai to take out the japanese transports if they are on the outside of japan… or If the pearl harbor attack goes poorly for japan make a counter attack … ahh short of that I ain’t got any great ideas… I have tried KJF and had it tried on me… but it just doesn’t work fast enough…

[Guest]

Peek in on my current game with Octo…

Not KJF, but USA focused on Japan, UK and Russia on Germany (aside from Japan front starting units)

I have kept Japan bottled up in Asia for 3 turns now (going in to J3, Russia holds Manchuria, US still has both Sinkiang AND China).

You might find it intersting to review…

[kyrial]

NCS, took a look-see at your game in progress… very nice job of keeping Japan bottled up. It was an interesting move to go with 2 ICs on J1 for Octo… I think I play pretty aggressively and I only go with 1 IC on J1 usually… I find it better to get the trannies early and start pumping troops into Asia. My take on the game so far is that it would have helped if in the early few rounds Japan was able to start pumping some land units into Asia in order to suplement the attack, even with the US bulking the Navy… with Japan you can still usually counter a US navy build at least in the early going as you start with so much more.

It will be interesting to see how this one turns out, though I have an idea based upon the current situations…

[Octopus]

It was a mistake on my part to build two complexes on the first turn when Russia was doing a buildup on Manchuria.  Another good move to slow Japan down was to destroy the Transport off the coast of Kwangtung.

My mistakes were annoying but not game ending.

I have made a note of the error and I believe I will do that any more.

[Guest]

Octo… I was going to mention that to you…
1 IC the first turn, with some TRN to replace initial losses (and allow you to more quickly take care of annoying Russians), then, if you like, the 2nd IC in J2.

By splitting the IC build, you get some additional pieces to work with on J2… and you were combat forces starved for J1 and J2, which is the ONLY way I kept you bottled up so long.

Now, after J3, your Japan looks like a “normal” Japan after J1.

Had I gone compeltely KGF and been sending most of my US forces to the Atlantic, Germany would be just about totally crippled by now, and Japan is still 3-4 moves from putting any real pressure on Russia…

[trihero]

It was a mistake to build 2 complexes AND skip Pearl Harbor, as well. This let the US build an effective navy too early.

[Guest]

A shame I did not USE it effectively :-)